Talk:Circadian rhythm

I have a suggestion for this page. I would just do it myself, but I am not well-versed in this field and would hate to mess things up. This page is written for scientists. While I support the use of technical language when it is necessary to use it, I think it's been significantly abused here. Take this for example: "Although circadian rhythms are endogenous, they are adjusted (entrained) to the environment by external cues called zeitgebers, the primary one of which is daylight".

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Previous discussions

What about blind people? What happens to their rhythm?

There should also be some discussion of the rhythm in absence of stimuli. There was a study done, though I forget where, which roughly showed that a great deal of mammals naturally act on a cycle of 26-28 hours in the absence of a day-to-night cycle and thrive there stably. I can personally attest to this, in fact, as I pay little attention to the sun and by my own schedule I usually prefer to sleep 12 hours and be awake 15 or so, creating schedule problems.

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Blind people will be exactly the same as everyone else. The perception of light is not the same as seeing light. Even if there is a problem with the eyes the body is still able to perceive light, and it knows when it is day and when it is night. The perception of light is simply the input stimulus for the system. From there, a cascade of hormones affect an even greater number of genes, ultimatly setting the clock.

For your second point, there have been several studies done in humans, other animals and especially plants, all concerning circadian rhythms in the absence of light. Currently, the evidence suggests that there is an intrinsic cycling that does occur. I work mostly in plants, and I know for plants that once a cycle is set, moving a plant into total darkness, initially has little effect. The cycling becomes programmed and takes a long time to reset.--Doucher 18:03, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

This seems to go directly against the facts stated in the article that say circadian perception of light comes from the retina.

...and plants don't have retinas or ganglion cells ... Paragraph deleted by Jclerman 21:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

And I think I've read stuff saying some blind people do have problems with their circadian rythm. Anyhow, this topic should probably either be treated (as it is relevant as long as references to the retina are made in the article), or the article changed (if it is wrong saying what it says). LjL 00:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

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Blind doesn't mean "no photoreceptors", blind just means "pathway between eyes and visual cortex has been interrupted". The retinohypothalamic tract is distinct from the much larger visual pathway. The two paths diverge at the optic chiasm. Any blindness resulting from a post-chiasmatic injury would not affect light transmission to the clock.

There are also photoreceptors in the retina that do not participate in the visual pathway; damage to the visual photoreceptors that spares these will not affect the light-resetting ability of the retina acting on the SCN.

Finally, don't forget that light is the most common entrainment signal, but it isn't the only one. A blind person with an alarm clock set to 8 AM will be every bit as entrained to the daily light cycle as you or I, provided that the clock maintains accurate time.

As for your second point, well, go back and look at the research. Endogenous periods are all over the place, but tend to be slightly less or slightly more than 24 hours, not predominantly 26 or greater. --DrNixon 06:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

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SCN and free running

I made a few changes that might help with these issues... added info that the cells of the SCN maintain their own rhythm in isolation (cell culture).... adding support to the "free running" phenomenon. The SCN is influenced..i.e..entrained by light... but has its own rhythm. Blind people essentially free run unless they have external cues to help entrain them. A rigid schedule can be as effective as photic entrainment.

MrSandman 29 June 2005 19:37 (UTC)

25 hr cycles

I remembered while I was reading this article one of the few things I picked up from a psychology class - human circadian rhythms are 25 hours rather than the 24 the article claims. Numerous sources easily found through a search engine will confirm this - http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/jetlag/ is just one of many. I've edited in a short bit about this to reflect this somewhat counterintuitive fact. 69.92.141.242 08:58, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It's not counterintuitive for me. Diurnal animals have cycles longer than 24 hours and nocturnal animals shorter than 24 hours. Why did natural selection result in such a difference with the 24 hrs day/night succesion is the question to be asked. The answer lies in the analysis of the response of oscillatory systems to periodic entrainments. Jclerman 20:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

The article states "Free-running rhythms of diurnal animals are close to 25 hours." Studies the last 10 years or so have debunked this (w/regard to humans). The average for human adults, young and older, is now accepted to be 24 hours and 11 minutes. --nbm, 24 May 2006

I'll assume you know what you're talking about, nbm, but the way you've edited it now doesn't make sense. I'm changing it. 163.1.143.112 (talk) 01:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That section had indeed become mangled; thank you for pointing it out. Better now? --Hordaland (talk) 03:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Plants are able to adapt to any light regime ...

Please give a source for the temporarily deleted paragraph:

• Plants are able to adapt to any light regime a laboratory can simulate, including ones that don't exist in the plant's natural environment, such as a 5 hour light cycle or an 82 hour light cycle. However, a plant's circadian rhythmns do not come solely from it's environment. A plant with no environmental input (a plant kept in the dark) will revert to it's genetically programmed 24 hour cycle for opening and closing flowers or moving it's stem and leaves. Jclerman 12:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The paragraph above has been corrected to reflect the idea of a genetically preset circadian period in relation to relatively small amount of published work that addresses this question.

In general, this whole page could do with more references to published work.

October 6, 2006 131.111.8.96

Rapid reaction by the SCN

"The SCN does not appear to be able to react rapidly to changes in the light/dark cues." I think that 1) this needs a source, and 2) it is meaningless anyway, as long as "rapidly" is not defined. --Beth (who doesn't really know how to do this kind of thing yet - will try to improve ;-))

That's actually a completely false statement. The SCN receives direct glutamatergic input from the retina and can entrain to light input during the subjective night due to this pathway. This entrainment occurs within 5 minutes (CREB phosphorylation) or longer (~30 minutes for PER1 I recall) depending on what exactly is meant by "react". If no one objects, I'll make the appropriate correction here. Dpryan 23:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)dpryan

Plant Circadian Rhythms?

I'm very curious about your mention of circadian rhythms in plants. There seemed to be very little detail available. With animals, and even animal cells, there's a noticeable difference in behavior. Specific organs secrete different hormones and such. What exactly is the basis of circadian rhythms in plantlife that can't be explained by the organism immediately reacting to stimuli (like sunlight)? Would the plant behave according to a similar schedule even if sunlight were blocked?

I was a little thrown by the last statement: "Circadian rhythms are thought to have evolved completely independently in cyanobacteria, animals, plants and fungi." So, Circadian Rhythms have evolved independantly of life? No, this statement means that the molecular circadian clock in each of these kingdoms has separate evolutionary origins.

Have there been any studies done on how the day/night cycle affects single-cell organisms? For example, are there nocturnal bacteria?

-Thanks 24.126.178.118

These rhythms were initially discovered in the movement of plant leaves in the 1700s by the French astronomer Jean-Jacques d'Ortous de Mairan who observed them in the dark. For a description of circadian rhythms in plants by de Mairan, Linnaeus, and Darwin see [1] The formal study of biological temporal rhythms (such as daily, weekly, seasonal, etc.) is called chronobiology. Entire laboratories are dedicated to research and to commercially produce plants in a variety of entraining photoperiods. Jclerman 09:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Weekly rhythms?

In the sentence about chronobiology, "weekly rhythms" are mentioned. Incidentally, this sentence appears to have been copied verbatim from the comment above me by Jclerman. I was not aware of any examples of these (after all, a week is an artificial construct, although I'll grant it's possible that some natural rhythms might coincidentally last one week). Was "monthly rhythms" perhaps intended? Robin S 00:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Weekly was, indeed, intended. See: "Sleep Research" (Brain Information Service/Brain Research Institute, UCLA), vol. 14, p.303 (1985): "SLEEP IS A DELIGHT ON SABBATH: CHRONOBIOLOGIC ORIGIN OF THE WEEK ?", by Juan-Carlos Lerman [a version with corrected typos is available by email to those who request it]. Jclerman 06:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks once again for sending me that paper. It made an interesting read and I look forward to researching more information about the phenomenon. Robin S 07:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Telling me to sleep

I just want to know when my circadian rythms are telling me to go to sleep, as the RTA ad in Australia has stopped playing and I forgot what the best time to go to sleep is. The reason I am wanting to know this is I have my HSC in 10 days and I want to know how to best study and not study when my circadian rhythms are telling me I should be sleeping. TeePee-20.7 11:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sun glasses POV

quote:"if there were no sunlight, the behavior would not persist." this is strictly an opinion and should not be worded that way, it should say "the behavior would likely not persist" or simply be excluded from the article as an example, there are some in the world who do, in fact, wear sunglasses in the day - The blind for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.198.228 (talk) 11:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right, and that rather lame example has always bothered me, but I hadn't come up with a good example to replace it. I hope that my rewording of that section is satisfactory. --Hordaland (talk) 15:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't the circadian behavior persist when entrained by other zeitgebers than light, such as feeding, social interactions, etc.? Jclerman (talk) 16:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, but does the present formulation preclude that? There seem to be some animals which are (exclusively?) entrained by some of these "other" cues. (I read recently that some bats in cave colonies never are exposed to light at all other than moon- and starlight. One or two individuals awaken and fly out to check the level of dusk; the others are signaled by them when it's dark.) There's perhaps some overemphasis on light these last decades as a reaction to earlier assumptions that humans were/are so very special that rules applicable to other mammals don't apply to us. --Hordaland (talk) 18:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

A rhythm cannot be considered endogenous before...

A rhythm cannot be considered endogenous before it has been tested in conditions without external periodic input.

• Does this mean that after testing (the system?), it doesn't matter what the results of the test are?

Jclerman (talk) 16:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Um. Changed before to unless. Does that solve the problem? --Hordaland (talk) 17:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Criteria section - Krebs Cycle Reference

Concerning the page on circadian rhythms, there is an error in information. It is noted that the Citric Acid Cycle aka the Krebs Cycle is the continual breakdown of glycogen. This is completely false. To enter the krebs cycle, Glycolysis (the breakdown of glycogen/glucose) has to have a final product of pyruvate. Pyruvate must then be converted to Acetyl CoA and it is the Acetyl CoA that enters the Krebs Cycle. The Krebs cycle is a means of electron transport to the electron transport chain for rephosphorylation of ADP to ATP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. exphys (talk • contribs) 12:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Text removed from article:

Circadian Rhythm, Origin And Nature

Circadian Rhythm: Genes Are Organisms, Not Molecular Contraptions

A. "Molecular Basis And Regulation Of Circadian Rhythms In Plants"

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-07/asop-pit062408.php

B. A mechanisms of energy absorption, by which archae genes became and function as active energy packages, i.e. became living organisms:

http://www.physorg.com/news115053032.html

C. Chromosomes coil more tightly during the day and relax at night.

http://www.physorg.com/news114872572.html

D. My elsewhere suggestions re the origin of Circadian Rhythm applies neatly in the above two cases. I posit that the mechanism involved in the absorption of energy by the archae genes is the mechanism of phasing of RNA-type olygomers into replicating primal Earth organisms, individual independent genes. This phasing from chemicals to living organisms was the genesis of Earth's biosphere.

Science will comprehend one day that genes are primal and genomes are evolved organisms.

Circadian rhythm is an innate gene-genome characteristic, inborn-brought-about at the energetic conditions during the genesis of genes in the process of phasing from chemical olygomers to replicating life, to living genes which are base life energy packages.

For the archaic genes, parents of all Earth's Life, direct sunlight was the only source of energy, and it was available to them at different times of the day in accordance with their location on Earth...

Dov Henis

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P81pQcU1dLBbHgtjQjxG_Q--?cq=1 Dov Henis (talk) 06:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

• This text, which was inserted at the top of the article, appears to have been meant for the talk page. --Hordaland (talk) 06:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Circadia

Did you know that "24 hours" equivalent exists only in a very few languages of the world?

Lithuania: para (PARA') ( literal translation almost impossible** ) Russia: sutki (CY'TKU) ( literal translation impossible** ) Greece: Nychthemeron (literally night-day) Latin: Circadia (?)

• • Although Russians have a word "pora" ("pora idti" = "it's time to go") which means "time now to begin something" and Lithuanians (not related to Russians linguistically) have a word "pora" which means "a couple; a pair". If accent on PO:'RA then "a pair" but if PORA' then "a couple" (man and wife).

Any other language that you might know has similar word for 24hrs? It's curious that all these German, Italian, French languages don't have (as much as I know) a singular word for "daynight" including English! I suppose CIRCADIA is a Latin equivalent which has been created recently or is it an older word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Audriust (talk • contribs) 18:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen "circadia" used as a word (noun) before. Circadian is an adjective, coined a few decades ago. Circa means approximately and some form of die(s) means a day - as in 1 day + 1 night. And our endogenous circadian rhythms are approximate (averaging, among normal humans, 24 hr 11 min).

The Scandinavian languages do have a common (and useful), word, døgn or dygn, meaning 24 hours. --Hordaland (talk) 09:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Circadian rhythms and torture

I was wondering if purposeful sleep deprivation as a form of torture should be added to the human health section, specifically the disruption portion. --Thaddius (talk) 04:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There's a section, Torture, in the article Sleep deprivation. That's probably enough. Though keeping people in solitary with no daylight and purposefully mixing up lengths of days and times of meals has probably been tried, too. It wouldn't kill you, just drive you mad, I reckon. --Hordaland (talk) 09:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh sweet. I was quite surprised that there was no mention here, but it makes sense that it'd be somewhere like sleep deprivation. Should just broaden my searches next time. --Thaddius (talk) 13:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Are there multiple cycles with different lengths?

While looking up this article I saw two different citations of Czeisler's work that appear to contradict each other:

By recording the daily rhythms of hormones and body temperatures in 24 healthy young and old men and women over a one-month period, the researchers conclude that our internal clocks run on a daily cycle of 24 hours, 11 minutes.

"That’s slightly longer than 24 hours, but significantly shorter than past estimates of 25 hours," says Charles Czeisler, professor of medicine at the Harvard Medical School. "Researchers previously reported a range of 13 to 65 hours, with a median of 25 hours, 12 minutes. The variation between our subjects, with a 95 percent level of confidence, was no more than plus or minus 16 minutes, a remarkably small range."

June 15, 1999 [2]

Brain clocks vs. wall clocks

While checking the biological clocks of young, healthy subjects, Czeisler's team made what he calls, "an amazing observation." They knew that all people don't operate on the same clocklike 24-hour cycle, but the differences they found were startling. The 12 men and women in the Mars study, who were 22 to 33 years old, showed circadian periods ranging from 23 1/2 to 24 1/2 hours.

These natural differences cause some people to jump energetically out of bed in the morning, or to enjoy staying up late. Those with less than 24-hour brain rhythms tend to go to bed earlier and get up earlier. They are morning people. Those with a 24-hour-plus rhythm tend to stay up later. They are evening people. "Such individuals would have no trouble adjusting to a Martian day," Czeisler notes.

May 15, 2007 [3]

Couple of theories:

1. Outdated research in one
2. Badly cited
3. Referring to different biological mechanisms

I suspect the Czeisler's original publications will shed some light on this subject, looking for it...

--Party on Aisle 7 (talk) 20:48, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

What surprised me reading that 2nd article was this: Exposure to such bright light in the morning should also get evening people going faster in the morning. "We haven't tested this yet, but it should work in many cases," Czeisler says. It's hard to believe that he hasn't tested this yet; many others have. It's the standard treatment for Delayed sleep phase disorder, which, admittedly, is not within the normal range.

The contradiction you're pointing out must be between a circadian period for all normal human adults:

(1999) between 23h 55 min and 24h 27 min and

(2007) between 23h 30 min and 24h 30 min.

The first study is based on only 24 people, the 2nd on just twelve. Measurements may be more precise a decade later. There are also several ways of measuring the period: core body temperature rhythm, cortisol rhythm, onset / midpoint / offset of melatonin secretion, at least. So, IMO, that's not much of a contradiction.

See also: Chronotype. - Hordaland (talk) 23:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

article

http://www.physorg.com/news174228584.html looks interesting and maybe relevant to this article. 70.90.174.101 (talk) 20:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Or perhaps better at Suprachiasmatic nuclei. But anything this fresh needs be accepted by more research teams than the first one, to qualify for Wikipedia. - Hordaland (talk) 03:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Circadian rhythm and genetics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKnO6l2GKXE Ignite talk by Adam Claridge Chang about the Pomace fly and circadian rhythm. Notjim (talk)

How proven is that picture anyway?

I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biological_clock_human.PNG

I have my doubts such a picture can be produced scientifically correct, without qualifiers 88.159.72.240 (talk) 14:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The file description attributes the information to a source. I believe it is at least approximately correct, and I'm not sure it makes sense to ask for more from a picture of this type. I also feel that the article is probably better for having the picture. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Looie this time :-)

The schedule shown is clearly that of a morning person (I do not have highest productivity at 10 a.m.!). The items/events chosen to illustrate the rhythm could have been other ones. In some cases, the order of the items will not be correct. (Evening people have their highest productivity in the afternoon. Lowest body temperature varies widely individually.)

Such an illustration is just that: an illustration. It can't possibly be absolutely correct for any one person, and the reader will understand that. It presents the general idea very well, and it is attractive. - Hordaland (talk) 07:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

A source?

Under Circadian_rhythm#Enforced_longer_cycles it reqiures a citation for people, average, having a slightly longer that 24h circadian rhythm. The following seems to be a valid source, cited in Psychology: Themes and Variations, a first year uni textbook for psych. Anybody with a bit more familiarity could add it.

Czeisler, C.A., Buxton, O.M., & Khalsa, S. (2005). The human circadian timing system and sleep-wake regulation. In M.H. Kryger, T. Roth, & W.C. Dement (Eds.), "Principles and practice of sleep medicine". Philadelphia: Elsevier Saunders.

DOI:http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/B0-72-160797-7%2F50038-0 70.26.108.98 (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)