Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 16

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.

It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussions below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken.
Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. We don't want a puff piece for Falun Gong or Li Hongzhi, neither do we want to demonise them. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it.

Additional suggested reading These are policies of Wikipedia and style guides for writing good articles.
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view	Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words
Wikipedia:Verifiability	Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not
Wikipedia:No original research	Wikipedia:Assume good faith
Wikipedia:Citing sources	Wikipedia:No personal attacks
Wikipedia:Reliable sources	Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Etiquette
Wikipedia:Notability	Wikipedia:Resolving disputes

Archived discussions

• /archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
• /Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
• /Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
• /Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
• /Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
• /Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
• /Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
• /Archive8, 25 April 2006 to 26 May 2006
• /Archive9, 26 May 2006 to June 2, 2006

Unprotected

As requested at WP:RfPP, I've now unprotected this article as it seems to have been long enough and the discussions here seem to have been productive. I'll keep the article watchlisted and jump in if edit warring begins again. Feel free to contact me or respond here if you agree or do not agree with unprotection, or if you feel that it may be necessary to protect again. AmiDaniel (talk) 03:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am introducing links to the sub-pages created. Dilip rajeev 04:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright everyone, calm down. Not five hours, and you're back edit-warring again. I'm not going to protect again just yet, but please everyone refrain from reverting and discuss your issues as if the article were protected--or else I will have to protect it again. Talk about changes, and then implement--changing, reverting, and arguing with edit summaries is quite counter-productive. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ami: Right after you unfroze the article Dilip, who requested you to do so, immediately reverted to a drastically different version which was not approved by the editors. His version actually deleted certain existing sections on the main page (eg: Ethics) and added new ones (eg: Research into Health Benefits and Theoretical & Epesitomological Studies. This is a dishonest action on Dilip's part and cannot stand. --Tomananda 08:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC) The ethics section is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_and_Epistemological_studies_on_Falun_Gong#Ethics

Agreed. Removing sections has not been agreed on. We haven't even agreed on the second paragraph yet. CovenantD 08:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As a note on that, User:Dilip rajeev is currently at four reverts (thus already in violation of 3RR). He has been warned, and upon reverting again, he will be blocked. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And as another note, while I'm not endorsing either version or any editors' actions here, I do find it quite misleading and dishonest that User:Dilip rajeev marked this edit as minor, as it clearly was not. I'm going to assume good faith and say that this was a mistake on his behalf, but I do find it rather bothersome. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but I myself noticed the m only after I saved it.. It was not intentional.. Also I had mentioend in the edit history what I had done, indicating the edit was not a minor one.. I described the edit as:Added sup-page links and replaced content with intro paras.( except "criticism" section)Dilip rajeev 16:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet another note from me: User:Tomananda has just reverted for the fourth time and is now also in violation of WP:3RR. They've both been adequately warned, and if either reverts again, s/he will be blocked. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Second paragraph

Okay, let's start with the one that was in place when the page was frozen.

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities. The Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.

Here's a suggested modified version which tries to strike a balance between the two POV's, but also adds more detail:

Falun Gong has been the focus of international attention since April 25,1999, when 10,000 practitioners assembled in a peaceful protest outside Zhongnanhai, China’s leadership compound. Prior to that, the Falun Gong had staged protests against its media critics all over China. On July 20, 1999 the government banned the Falun Gong for its violation of Chinese laws. However, the Falung Gong denies any wrongdoing, claiming that the Chinese government itself has violated international laws, while also alleging mistreatment and torture of its followers. --Tomananda 08:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont udnerstand why anybody would want go into such "details" in an article of Falun Gong. The reason why you want to put it like that is only too conspicuous. I dont think going in circles discussing this would work. Just menstion that China began a Nation-wide supression of Falun Gong on.. and that this has been regarded a major human-rights violation.. Over a week, and we are again back on square 1. To procced we must clearly have the article split. The intro paras can be discussed and modified. That is clean and starightforward. Dilip rajeev 10:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for edits

My first suggestion is to not make any changes until we agree on them. Dilip, that means you should put the second paragraph back for now. CovenantD 08:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I second that. And let's go in the order of the existing sections. Dilip wants to add some new main page sections and delete (or move) some others and those changes can be discussed as we go along as well. I am not saying I reject everything Dilip wants to do, but do insist we fully know what these changes are and agree to them. --Tomananda 08:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomanda, Covenant was talking about the intro paragraph. You seem to want to cover up things in a mess and make the discussion go around in circles. Not intented to be an offense but just pointing out what I feel. To procced, we must clearly have the article split. The intro paras can be discussed and modified. That is clean and straightforward and the dits will move much faster. If anything has been left our from the previous version(s) it can be re-introduced. Think about it please, it it takes two weeks to decide a two line pragraph and we are still arguing, we really wont be able to get things done unless things are put into appropriate sub-pages and scrutinized thereby creating a high-quality article. Dilip rajeev 10:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip, you also use selective, circular arguments to promote your version of things, IMO, so let's not be too ready to point fingers. We all have a personal POV, but it is where it interferes with the article that it gets us into difficulties. It doesn't have to. We have to edit from a broader perspective, one beyond the ends of our own noses. There is room for all pertinent information. People need to accept that their definition of what is pertinent isn't always the same as others' and information that others feel important will be included in the article. In almost any Wikipedia article one has an interest in, information one may not like personally will be eventually included somehow. The only question is, does one want to be relaxed about editorial diversity or controlling? Nobody owns these articles. --Fire Star 火星 12:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip: Your mandacity truly amazes me. You have consistenly done major revert edits without discussion or honest edit summaries. Right now you are repeating the same dishonest justification for your deletions..plus additions of new sections...as you have previsously. Rather than honestly saying: Look, I think we need some new sections on the main page (eg: your new self-promoting section called Research into health benefits)...you continue to pretend that this is just about splitting the article. Under that banner, you have slipped in new sections, a new page, and made many significant changes to existing edits, both in terms of content and placement. As Firestar commented awhile ago in an edit summary, I find it increasingly difficult to believe what you say about anything. --Tomananda 21:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Other than Tomananda's initial attempt at an alternate version, above, there hasn't been any productive discussion on the second paragraph. Look at the two versions at the top of this section and make suggestions for changes here. CovenantD 18:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi, Folks. Ok. Can we discuss whether to use the subpages or not? I saw Dilip's last version using the splitted pages are quite neat. Also, the subsections of the critism were kept on the main page. I wonder why it is still reverted. Are we simply not welcoming splitting pages? Fnhddzs 13:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Beliefs and teachings and Cultivation of mind and body

Folks: I have a question. I think the current structure are not logically clear. For example, I think these two sections are not parallel.

3 Beliefs and teachings

4 Cultivation of mind and body

Progress

I think we actually might be making some progress. It's a kind of "three steps forward, two steps back" kind of progress, but progress nonetheless. I like the shorter version with summaries and links to daughter articles. CovenantD 17:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

1st paragraph of intro

I see that Dilip has added another sentence to the first paragraph. Is there anything in this that needs to be discussed? Unless there's a dispute about the numbers, it seems like a non-issue to me. CovenantD 17:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries.

Unless somebody objects to this sentence being added in the next 24 hours, I'm going to add it and resist any attempts to remove it without discussion. CovenantD 18:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Second paragraph of Origins section

It's just been pointed out that this paragraph is in contention. Let's discuss.

At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a master with the utmost supernatural powers and wisdom. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the early version of the group’s bible Zhuan Falun, Li claimed to have been trained by numerous Masters in Buddhism and Taoism since the age of four and acquired supernatural powers at age of eight. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. Li also presented himself as the very embodiment of Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance and claimed to have discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.

Dilip, you're the one who removed it, so why don't you explain why. Tomananda, you pointed out it had been removed so maybe you could explain why you think it's relevant to the section summary (as opposed to the daughter article on History). Samuel, you just jumped in so you need to explain the same. Also see the relevant portions of this talk page on the intro. CovenantD 18:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Covenant, at this point I am more concerned about dealing with Dilip's failure to play by the rules. The paragraph that he deleted was written by another editor, Samuel, so it is up to Samuel to provide the argument for relevance. --Tomananda 21:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this section should be there, iv'e searched for "A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi" and found nothing, I have not read the book and I dont what it says there. 213.114.166.136 11:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Order of topics in Criticism and Controveries section

Either this article or the subarticle needs to be reordered so that they are similar in form. I don't care which one. Tomananda, you seem to have great concern for that section, do you have an opinion? Anybody else? CovenantD 18:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethics section

I've returned the Ethics section to the article for now - there hasn't been agreement on removing it. It's now open for discussion. CovenantD 17:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that a copy of the ethics section exists here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_and_Epistemological_studies_on_Falun_Gong#Ethics.. Dilip rajeev 17:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. I missed it. I still think that some editors might want a mention on the main page, so perrhaps we should look at how to summarize what we have here now. CovenantD 17:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that Tomananda has made me look at the various Ethics sections with this, I see some problems. What's there is almost the same as what's in the Theorhetical article. That is unacceptable. There's also the fact that Ethics can be viewed from a critical viewpoint, so that needs to be worked in. I'd suggest a new subsection under Criticism and moving the current Ethics to a subcategory of Theorhetical and summarize it. CovenantD 22:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, most of the current Ethics section is critical, so that's why we retitled it to Allegations of elitism and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics and placed it in the Criticism page. I agree something needs to be written, but that would be a more pro-FG rendering of its system of ethics. --Tomananda 22:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

okay, now I'm confused again. Are you saying that the section that it's this article, the section called Ethics, is the same thing that's on the Criticism page? What's here now is pretty long. CovenantD 22:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it is confusing. The original article appeared in the main section. Then another editor (I think it was Ed Poor) felt it belonged in the Criticism page. I then did a minor re-write to make it more suitable for Criticism. The versions are similar, but not the same. Check out the criticism version here: Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong#Allegations of elitism and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics Please note that when I revised the article in the Criticsm page, an editor inserted the lead paragraph from the original version. But since a criticism page should start with what the criticism is, I've just deleted that first paragraph. What would work well, then, would be for the pro-FG editors to write a new main page section for Ethics and have that cross-linked to the Criticism page. Would make for an interesting read I think. --Tomananda 00:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

External links

I've reordered them into Falun Gong/Critical/Other sites per the suggestion of... somebody... when the page was locked. I hope that's non-controversial. CovenantD 17:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Status of edits and playing by the rules

Several things to report and discuss:

• Yesterday Ami Daniel warned both Dilip and I that if we did any more reverts he would block us. As the history will show, I stopped doing any more edits, while a few hours later Dilip deleted an entire paragraph in the origins section (see above discussion). This was clearly in violation of Ami's directive and I have requested that Dilip now be blocked for a 24 hour period. Enough is enough.
• Dilip's stated reason for deleting the paragraph...which quotes from Li Hongzhi's original biography as printed in earlier editions of Zhuan Falun...was that it was "unsourced."
• Covenant, you have asked that we not delete material for reasons of sources but instead add a citation needed. In doing his deletion, Dilip not only violated the 3RR limit warning, but also your earlier request to not delete material because of source issues. What's more, the paragraph in question was sourced within the text.
• There is a great deal of material in other pages which is unsourced, unverified or needs to be re-written. I did an extensive post about these issues days ago, but there has been no response. We cannot have a double standard on the issues of sources.
• Among the many changes that Dilip has slipped into his edits, without discussion, is the creation of a new page called "History and timeline." We did not discuss this new page and I question it's need at this point.
• A rewrite of the Ethics section was placed in the Criticism page some time ago titled "Allegations of elitisim and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics." Now I see that Dilip or perhaps another practitioner has added a link on the home page under Ethics to "Theoretical and epistomological studies.." which, by the way, is yet another new section. This particular change is not acceptable, as the content for the re-written ethics section clearly belongs on the Criticism page. If there's a desire to write up something new for Ethics and place it on another page, that's fine. But the existing section, which focuses on aspects of FG ethics which are elitist or intolerant should not be moved. --Tomananda 21:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• AmiDaniel is the admin overseeing this. If you don't get a response from hir, ask Fire Star, Mirobrovsky or another admin to request a neutral party to look it over.
• The paragraph has been returned and is now open for discussion.
• ...
• Material in other pages should be addressed on their respective talk page. All sources must meet Wikipedia standards.
• Having a history page is not a bad idea for now. It does fit the style of summaries and sub-articles that we discussed, so I'm inclined to assume good faith on its creation. Process questions aside, it allows for a space to create that portion of the story that is Falun Gong. If we decide it's more appropriate for this main article then we can fold it back in. Let's discuss it over there.
• Much of that also applies here - the style of the main article, the assumption of good faith, space to work on that separate from the main article summary. I agree that ethics is something best dealt with from several perspectives. Um, and I'm the one who added the link to the Theorhetical article after Dilip pointed it out to me. I'm going to claim an assume good faith defense also. Now that you've made me look at the Ethics sections, see my comments here. I see some problems that need to be addressed. CovenantD 22:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the need for citations in the Persecution page, I notice that a few were added by Dilip, but not accepted by Covenant. In addition to dealing with those problem areas, I especially ask for a response to items # 1 and # 2 that appeared in my posting above Talk:Falun Gong#Text that needs to be deleted, verified or re-written Having just gone through a major challenge to the Deng and Fang academic paper, I am especially concerned about verifying sources about the alleged healh benefits of Falun Gong. Please see: Talk: Research into health benefits of Falun Gong--Tomananda 22:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Already on it. See my responses on the talk page and my edits to the article[1]. CovenantD 00:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

A paragraph starting "At the beginning..." was removed from the origins section as it seems to be completely unsourced further what relevance does the unsourced claim have? It sounds more like made up criticism... AND AGAIN THE NY TIMES FIGURE HAS BEEN DELETED BY SOMEONE. IF YOU KEEP DELETING SUCH WELL SOURCED THINGS...(I THINK IT HAS BEEN DELETED REPEATEDLY OVER A DOZEN TIMES BY THE SAME PERSON) I WONDER TO WHAT EXTENT THIS PERSON WOULD GO TO VANDALIZE THE ARTICLE. Dilip rajeev 06:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Dilip rajeevAnyone who reads the paragraph would know that the material comes from “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” appeared as an appendix in the early version of the Chinese Zhuan Falun. Why don’t you ask a Chinese practitioner for a copy of it? And again, one more time, you rewrote the article and deleted a section without consensus!

I understand there was something in a version by A publisher in China and that it was written by a journalist. But of what relevance is that? There are so many publishing houses around the world publishing Zhuan Falun and I guess even in mainland china there were more than one. Dilip rajeev 13:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

NY Times figure

And again, one more time, the NY Times figure has been deleted, and a completely unsourced claim introduced.. Dilip rajeev 07:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why does this keep getting deleted? It's cited and fits the context. Please explain the deletion. CovenantD 07:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The figure provided by NY Times contradicts the government’s figure. The original source should be cited whenever there is a conflict like this. If you promise not to rewrite or delete anything without a consensus, I will not delete it again. --Samuel Luo 07:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Lou: "The figure provided by NY Times contradicts the government’s figure. " Do you trust a killed government responsible for the deaths of 100 million chinese or the Ny Times? Who cares about the Chinese Government? Are you going to follow all the Chinese Communist propaganda too? Stop deleting it please. Omido 16:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel, thank you for agreeing not to delete the material until we reach an agreement.

The obvious solution is to include all three sets of numbers. The New York Times is the embodiment of a reliable source. CovenantD 16:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Dilip rajeev, It was not written by a journalist but the Falun Dafa Research Society chaired by your master. The version of the Chinese Zhuan Falun I have which contains this biography was published by Falun Fofa publishing co in Hong Kong owned by your master. Why don’t you ask for a translation of it from a Chinese practitioner? Benjamin Penny wrote about it in his paper “The Life and Times of Li Hongzhi: Falun Gong and Religious Biography” [2]

Omido, I don’t trust the Chinese government, the Falun Gong and you. We have to report the claims of the Chinese government and the Falun Gong nothing more nothing less. --Samuel Luo 17:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

We discussed this issue in depth here. If you want to debate the issue please look at what has already been said. In my opinion, the discussion left off indicating that the NY Times source should be included. Mcconn 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel, your issues of trust aside, what do you think of the current version of the paragraph that deals with the number of practitioners? I'm referring to the version that lists the NYT numbers first, then the Chinese gov't figure, then the ClearWisdom number? CovenantD 17:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Where did the Pics Go?

Where did all of the pics for the Falun Gong page go? The Fading Light 13:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect they were moved to the spin-off articles. CovenantD 16:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Also why is the Feng and Deng quotes on the main page? 213.114.166.136 16:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. Would somebody like to rewrite the Falun_Gong#Difference_between_Falun_Gong_and_Qi_Gong summary? CovenantD 16:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the existing intro in the main page with the existing lead paragraph from the Criticism page, which has already been discussed. --Tomananda 19:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I can do it, ALOT of things on the critics section is unsourced too... Omido 16:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Omido, most of what you claim is "not sourced" already has the citations in the body of the text and those citations are also listed in detail in the reference section at the end of the article. Not every source is to an on-line article, some sources refer to material in print (such as books) or academic papers which might not be available on-line. When that happens, the detailed information for those sources is listed at the end of the article in the references section. There are a few remaining problem areas because of the removal of the Deng and Fang source which I will address in the Criticism page. --Tomananda 19:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

--Tomananda 19:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Please be sure to submit your version here first, so people can comment on it and we can reach consensus. We've agreed to review all major edits before they happen, so please respect that decision. CovenantD 16:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Need Sources

---

These things i what I want to see sources for:

Li as a savior or supernatural entity

"critics point out that he assumes the role of a divinity by virtue of his claimed supernatural powers."

Although practitioners claim that Falun Gong is merely a “cultivation practice,” some commentators point to Li’s divine status as proof that Falun Gong can rightly be considered a religion. (Chang, 2004)

Chang opines: “If Li Hongzhi’s disciples can become gods by engaging in falun gong, it stands to reason that the founder of this cultivation practice must himself be a deity.”

According to Chang, the existence of Li’s law bodies combined with his claim to be without karma amount to an admission of his divine nature: “Li also maintained that human beings do not have law bodies and that only he – as well as buddhas, daos and gods – have law bodies. Falun Gong practitioners must wait until they have completed their cultivation, and attained buddhahood, to have such bodies.”

Allegations of elitism and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics

Critics of the Falun Gong have pointed out that aspects of Li’s system of morality can be considered elitist and intolerant.

Critics who see the Falun Gong as elitist point to what they see as a strong “us-versus- them” ethos in Falun Gong teachings.

According to Rahn (2000), one of the potential effects of this ethos “is the possibility of isolating practitioners from family and friends as well as non-practitioners in general. It can also help create a feedback loop system where practitioners only relate to other practitioners, thereby mutually reinforcing belief in the teachings, identification with the group, and eradication of any conflicting or alternative views.”

Li’s teachings on the importance of racial purity have provoked considerable controversy. Critics opine that Li is intolerant of racial differences

Is Falun Gong a cult?

Critics of Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Li Hongzhi establishes between himself and his followers, using what they say are a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than a new religious movement or metaphysical qigong.

Omido 16:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you know how to insert a "citation needed" tag? Just put {{fact}} where you want a source referenced. I don't think of that as a major edit, just a way of letting people know where there's something that needs attention. CovenantD 17:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Convenant, I am really sorry for all those reverts, I am kinda new :) Omido 17:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Understood. The biggest thing to remember with the Falun Gong pages is to talk about major edits before making them. Anything is going to be controversial so it's best to avoid edit wars by making sure people agree on what's being changed or added. CovenantD 16:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

With a few exceptions, virtually all of this material is already sourced in the text (Eg: the Maria Chang book (2004) or the Patsy Rahn paper (2000) so your claim of missing sources doesn't make sense. I have updated the main page intro to the Difference between Falun Gong and Qi Gong and inserted a Chang reference that was previously missing. As to the rest, I am going to respond on the Talk: Criticism page, since that is where this discussion belongs anyway. --Tomananda 19:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverts Deleting New Content

I strongly suspect people are copying the article to their own computers and making edits before copying back into Wikipedia. I made a series of changes to the article, and while some was left intact, the majority was reverted, incorrect spelling & grammar intact.Phanatical 19:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Enough is Enough: Dilip must receive a block sanction at this point

How many warnings can one editor get before his violation of Wiki standards results in a sanction? Dilip has repeatedly violated the 3RR policy, while also posting extremely deceptive edit summaries to conceal what he is actually doing through a series of hard-to-track edits. Some time ago he received a warning from Miborovsky. More recently, he received a warning (as did I) from another administrator. I honored that warning, but Dilip did not...about two hours later he returned to reverting or deleting material in the main article. Now, for the umpteenth time he has done it again, and quite deceptively. Here's a summary of his most recent violation of the 3RR policy, together with an explanation so that we can all understand the ultimate results of Dilip's editing:

• 7:07 3 June 2006
• 15:27 3 June 2006
• 17:34 3 June 2006
• 19:41 3 June 2006

I invite every administrator who accesses this article to review this sequence of edits and how Dilip summarized them in his edit summary. Here's the bottom line: Dilip evidently does not want Wikipedia to report Li's own statement about his origins in the Origins section. In some of these edits, Dilip simply deleted the entire Origins section (which pre-existed his History and Timeline page), in other edits he replaced the second paragraph with one of his own making, and in the final edit he was straightforward about what he wanted to do, saying in the edit summary: "removed the completely unsourced paragraph starting with 'In the beginning'"

That last edit by Dilip, done at 19:41 on 3 June, represented his 4th attempt in 24 hours to delete or delete and replace the same paragraph. It is a clear violation of Wiki rules and given that there is a long history of this violation on Dilip's part I insist that some action be taken. Is there no accountability in Wikipedia ever?

One more imporant point: The paragraph which Dilip seeks to eliminate is already sourced within the body of the text. It comes from an early edition of Zhuan Falun in Chinese whicih contained an official biography of Li Hongzhi--a biography which the publishers later on removed from subsequent editions. The source of the Li quote, therefore, is a Falun Gong publisher. The question we have to ask ourselves is this: why does Dilip not want this material reported in Falun Gong, since it comes from the first biography of his master and was published, in book form, by the Falun Gong itself? --Tomananda 21:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Dillip has been blocked for twelve hours for this violation, though he contests that it was not 3RR. I agree with you here that his reverts are often times complex partial reverts with deceptive edit summaries, and as I've warned him in the past, this behavior is completely unacceptable. At the same time, there are three editors to this article who are editing in a highly disruptive manner, and I'm tempted to protect the article yet again, which I think would be highly unfortunate. As I think Dillip should at least be allowed to voice his opinion on these matters on the talk page, I've made an ultimatum to him that if he can refrain from editing the article altogether for the next twenty-four hours, I will lift the block. AmiDaniel (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Ami! Maybe this will help settle the overall edits down and encourage more discussion, which would be a good thing. Let's give it a try. --Tomananda 21:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Dilip should be allowed to voice his opinion. However we should make sure he does not do that in the expenses of others. Before the page was unprotected there was discussion about the article paragraph by paragraph. We should continue that process. --Yueyuen 22:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, please be a bit more restrained in your posts about Dilip's actions and reverts. It's getting very close to the first example of a personal attack because of it's repitition. Your feelings are recorded on the talk page and in the edit history, and there's a neutral-party admin keeping an eye on this page, so there's no need to expound on those again. A simple request to check the number of reverts, here and on AmiDaniel's page, will suffice in the future. CovenantD 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This does not constitute a personal attack and it surprises me that you would even suggest it. In the above post I documented why a series of edits did, in fact, consitute a violation of the 3RR rule. Because Dilip often uses deceptive edit summaries while deleting critical material and adding new material, it is often not clear what the real effect of his edits has been. I have not said any thing about Dilip personally above, but I have characterized his edits as "deceptive"--which they are. Collaboration of that fact has come from several administrators: most recently Ami agreed he used deceptive edits, and previously Fire Star stated she had increasing difficulty believing what Dilip says about anything. And on top of that, you yourself used the "f" word to indicate your understandable frustration with Dilip's undiscussed deletions. To accuse me of personally attacking Dilip simply because I have done multiple postings on different occassions is unjustified. I have done multiple postings because Dilip has done multiple deltions, often in vilolation of the 3RR rule, and had actually received a warning from Miborovsky about it. --Tomananda 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not justifying or excusing or even talking about Dilip's actions - I'm talking about yours. I compared it to the first example of a personal attack because of your repetition. In some ways, you make my case for me. Admins are aware of the problem and are actively monitoring it. AmiDaniel appears to be very good at finding reverts - I think bringing it to hir attention is enough to bring action. If you feel the need to do a full report, there is a page for it. If you think my words are inaccurate, feel free to ignore them. I won't be offended. :-) CovenantD 20:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

PS - And to keep it neutral you might want to consider just asking that all editors be checked when you think one has violated 3RR. It often turns out that other editors are at three reverts, and that should be brought out too. CovenantD 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but your comment begs the question. I have done postings in the past asking for administrators to intervene and there has actually been some discussion among all the editors leading to suggestions that we should be permissive. But IMHO, the permissive strategy has not worked. I would rather that we all take a hard line on the 3RR policy in the future because I think the stability that will come from that will result in a better article. I agree that every editor must be held accountable for this policy...plus providing honest edit summaries so people can figure out what is happening. --Tomananda 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, which is why I'm pushing the idea of contacting AmiDaniel. S/he seems to be impartial so far, yet willing to wade in and take action. S/he also has a habit of counting everybody's reverts and making appropriate comments/warnings, another factor I find to be very useful. CovenantD 20:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, then, I will trust that Ami will do his job (I think he's a he) and apologize if I've been impatient. --Tomananda 21:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Master Li lectures practitioners for not taking criticism well in 2006 speech. Was it the first time he has done that?

Here's an intro I wrote for a block quote in the Ethics section:

In a speech in Los Angeles (2006), Li Hongzhi spoke for the first time about what he sees as a big problem—cultivators not accepting criticism well. He also suggested that practitioners may be too focused on making judgments about others

In a recent edit, Dilip replaced the lead sentence with:

In a speech in Los Angeles (2006) Li Hongzhi says:

Here are the key sections from the LA speech:

Sometimes, while validating the Fa, doing Dafa work in general, or in your own cultivation, many unsatisfactory things indeed exist. The most noticeable and biggest problem, which has gone unresolved for a long time, is also what the gods have been muttering in my ears, something that troubles them the most. But I have never emphasized it, and I haven't discussed it with strong words. Why is that? It's because Dafa disciples needed a little human courage as they were going about validating the Fa today. That is why I didn't talk about it. I wanted to save that discussion for the final time--I wanted to talk about it later on, when the time was more ripe. What is it, then? When Dafa disciples make mistakes, they do not like to be criticized. No one can criticize them, and when someone does, it sets them off. When they are right, they don't like others bringing up things they could improve on; when they are wrong, they don't want to be criticized. They get upset as soon as others criticize. The problem is becoming pretty bad. (Applause)

Why have I waited until now to talk about it? When you were validating the Fa and exposing the evil earlier on, I didn't want you to be too soft when doing things; in that case as you clarified the truth you would have been apt to do so at less than full strength. It would be a problem if, when others commented [negatively] as you clarified the truth, you just stopped right there, without giving any explanation. Now that you have become mature and rational, and know how to handle things, and now that [discussing this matter] will not affect your truth clarification, I am talking about what I had saved for today.

Now that Master has spoken about this in today's teaching of Fa here, from this point on you must start to take this matter seriously. (Enthusiastic Applause)

Dilip, it seems to me the Master Li directly says he waited until now to talk about (this problem). The fact that he has previously told practitioners they must accept criticism well does not mean that he has previously scolded them for not doing so. What’s new about this blockquote is not the moral teaching itself, but the pointed scolding he gives to practitioners for not living up to it.

I introduced the block quote with “Master Li spoke for the first time about what he sees as a big problem.” It is not reasonable for you to just delete that introduction with a deceptive edit summary. If you or another editor wants to suggest alternative wording for the introduction, that's fine. But your deletion of the entire introduction I wrote is not a cooperative editing thing to do. --Tomananda 22:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia has apolicy of no orginal research. But I completely disagree with your interpretations. What do you think culitvation practice is? Personal conclusions or interpretations you comeup with cannot be put in the article. 202.83.32.50 15:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

“A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi”

I just want to point out that Fnhddzs has just added an edit to the second paragraph of the origins section which cites a Benjamin Penny article about Li's first biography. What's important about Fnhddzs's edit is that for the first time a Falun Gong practitioner has admitted that the quote in fact did come from a book published by the Falun Gong. (Readers of this discussion will note that Dilip was just sanctioned for doing a series of 4 reverts which deleted this very paragraph for the alleged reason that it was unsourced.) So now the story is that the biographical statment is sourced, but that it had originally been written by a reporter and edited by the Falun Gong before they published it in the early version of the Zhuan Falun. I don't dispute any of that, and in fact think it is worth pointing out if it is true. However, why did we have to go through a potential revert war to come to this new understanding? For those interested, the Fnhddzs edit was done at 22:47 3 June. There are stylistic problems with the edit..it should be an independent paragraph and could be expressed more clearly, but it's a start. --Tomananda 23:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a master with the utmost supernatural powers and wisdom. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the early version of the group’s bible Zhuan Falun, Li claimed to have been trained by numerous Masters in Buddhism and Taoism since the age of four and acquired supernatural powers at age of eight. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. Li also presented himself as the very embodiment of Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance and claimed to have discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.

This is completely unsourced. A version by A publsher in China carried a two page "biography" written by a journalist. Thats all .. What this para claims is something else...

• “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” was written by FAlun dafa research society developed and chaired by Li. A shorter version with a different title was distributed by Li himself at the very beginning of his master career. This seventeen pages long bio was included in all chinese Zhuan Falun beofre 1999. Li has been very secretive about his origins. This bio provides info to the origin of his wisdom and power. It also talked about how he developed the Falun Gong system. --Samuel Luo 17:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There needs to be a version that is avail for people to read. It doesn't have to be online, but it can't be a part of somebody's private collection either. It must be accessible for people to read for themselves. If there is an English translation that has been published, that should be used. It the only version available is Chinese, then that will have to be used. The first step is verifying that there is a version that is accessible by the public. CovenantD 17:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Information on source verification for Li's early biography in Zhuan Falun

The authorized biography of Li Hongzhi, which appeared as an appendix in earlier versions of Zhuan Falun, is totally legitmate as a source and since this is becoming an issue I will provide all the reasons why:

• Earlier versions of Zhuan Falun containing Li's authorized biography are publicly available in some public libraries. They may be difficult to track down, but that difficulty is no justification for not allowing it as a source.
• The authorized biography is described in detail by Benjamin Penny in his article "The Life and Times of Li Hongzhi: Falun Gong and Religious Biography."
• In addition to summarizing the contents of the authorized biography, Penny makes several comments concerning its legitimacy. Since most editors probably have not seen the Penny article, I will quote verbatim from it:

When "The Life and times of Li Hongzhi" was released under the authorship of the research department of the Ministry of Public Security, the target of its attack was a biography of Li that has circulated both as an appendix to early editions of Zhuna Falun, the major book of the movement, and as a stand-alone text from the internet. Its English version is entitled "A short biography of Mr Li Hongzhi, founder of Falun Xiulian Dafa, President of the Research Society of Falun Buddha Science." This biography consists of an introduction and five parts and describes the life of Li Hongzhi, from his birth until late 1993. It's last sentence reads: "At present, Mr Li is heading his disciples to preach the Law and teach the cultivation exercise in big and medium-sized cities throughout the country." Thus, it was probably composed in late 1993 or 1994 and appears to have circulated freely for some five or six years afterwards. The biography is presented as a product of the Falun Gong Reserch Society (Falun gong yanjiuhui)appearing over their signature. Neither the current edition of Zhuan Falun nor its translation into English include this biogrpahical essay and it has also disappeared from the internet."

Importantly, in Li Hongzhi's Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, the status of the biography was explicitly addressed in a queastion and answer session:

Q: I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master's biography. Is this appropriate?

A. No. I don't want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan Falun. Now I would ask them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consumation."

• Although it's true that a similar and much longer version of this biography appeared in the first edition of Zhongguo falun gong..and that that biography was written by someone described as a journalist working for the magazine of the Chinese Association for Scientific Research into Qigong named Zhyu Huiguang...Dr. Penny concludes that the biography that was published in Zhuan Falun counts as an authorized biography. He does, however, discuss "discrepancies in accounts of Li's background" and speculates that a change in reported social status of Li may have been been done by the Zhuan Falun editors in order to help "prospective adherents to identify with someone with an 'average' social background, as opposed to the exceptional figure who rose from the gutter." Penny states:

In the later essay he (Li) is described as coming from "an ordinary intellectual's family." The effect of this change in social status is to shift Li from the "ideal" of a boy who had to overcome great hardships to attain his great triumph, to the "unexceptional" where he is represented as being little differenct from his friends.

• Finally, although Penny states that the authorized biography is no longer available on the internet, it actually is by using one of the Archive search engines that have been described elsewhere in Wikipedia. For those who are interested in readin this document in English, you need to go to an archive search engine first, then enter this URL (which was provided by Penny in one of his many footnotes): http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/~dongxue/biography.html I downloaded a copy of the page yesterday and read it. Very interesting! --Tomananda 19:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You present your case very well. CovenantD 19:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I reinsert my edits on origins

Yesterday I made edits "01:10, 4 June 2006 Fnhddzs (→Origins - add info. for the biography) ". But they were deleted without reasonable bases.

I cannot find the original of biography now. But according to my memory, your edits on that biography have inaccuracy. I also looked up Penny's paper. I could not even find "numerous masters" there. I could not find things like "very embodiment of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance" either even in Penny's paper. It is not in print any more. I don't think it is appropriate to put it here. Fnhddzs 17:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC) I remember it is 1 or 2 page biography in the last page of Zhuanfa lun (old version). Fnhddzs 17:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC) How could you guys say it is 17 pages? Fnhddzs 17:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Below is what I copied from Penny's paper (on China quarterly) on his notes of finding that biography. " http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/�dongxue/biography.html, downloaded on 9 March 2001. The “Translation Group of Falun Xiulian Dafa” is credited with the translation and no author is given. By 1 May 2001 it had disappeared from this site and I have been unable to locate another website on which it appears. All citations come from this text. Another translation is available in Chinese Law and Government, Vol. 32, No. 6, pp. 14–23. This translation is, in many ways, more readable than the falun gong version but as it does not have the imprimatur of the movement, the official version is preferred. The Chinese version of this biography can be found in Li Hongzhi, Zhuan falun (Turning the Wheel of the Law) (Beijing: Zhongguo guangbao dianshi chubanshe, 1994) pp. 333–345 under the title “Zhongguo falun gong chuangshiren, falun gong yanjiuhui huizhang Li Hongzhi xiansheng xiaozhuan” but has not been published in that book since 1996. An English language internet version of Zhuan falun, translated by the “Translation Group of Falun Xiulian Dafa” and dated 1997 has the biography listed in its table of contents but the relevant link leads to the message, “The page cannot be found” (http://www.nb.net/�boying/ZFL/en_zfl.htm and http://www.nb.net/ �boying/ZFL/Biograf.htm)."Fnhddzs 17:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This bio was seventeen pages long used to introduce the Master as a saint to the public from 1995 to 1999. Before 1995 a shorter version was used. Why are you practitioenrs trying so hard to hide information about Li?--Samuel Luo 17:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the biography you referred to was the one in Zhuan Falun (please see Petty's paper). If you like to refer to other biographys, please say clearly. Why you want to hide Li's quotes on Canada lecture?Fnhddzs 17:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't make major edits to the intro

We don't have agreement on what the intro should be yet. I've just reverted a bunch of edits that weren't discussed here first. CovenantD 17:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Why people remove stuff without my agreement either? If the article owned by "we", who are "we"? Fnhddzs 17:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. let's discuss the following edits of mine. People say it changed the meaning of the first paragraph. So what is the meaning of the first paragraphy supposed to be?

In Li Hongzhi’s Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, a question was asked to Mr. Li: "I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master’s biography. Is this appropriate?" and he answered:

No. I don’t want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan falun. Now I had asked them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consummation.

Fnhddzs 17:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, if we are going to revert intro to an earlier version it is this long standing one 05:20, 4 June 2006. Changes have been made since this time without consensus. --Samuel Luo 17:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The first two paragraphs, after my revert, are the same as when the page was last unfrozen, with one sentence added after nobody objected on the talk page here. The third paragraph of the intro is under discussion here. CovenantD 17:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by fairness? To be fair, the biography should not be put here at all. That will make the article clean and neat. Fnhddzs 17:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel just reverted back to the complete intro that was in place when the page was unfrozen. I accept this revert as it does remove any edits that may still be in contention. CovenantD 18:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the biography is in dispute. We don't like it be there alone without other info. like Mr. Li's answer. Fnhddzs 18:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph on numbers (3rd intro para)

Samuel and I have engaged in numerous reverts over this paragraph. I'm glad that the NY Times content has been accepted, but there is still more that is in dispute. Here are the two versions.

Mine:

There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles, both published on April 27, 1999, before the crackdown began. According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. [2][3] On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [4] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[5]

and Samuel's:

The Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [2] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[3] A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles in April 1999 [4][5] The exact number of practitioners is not known.

Differences:

Mine mentions why the numbers are of dispute and states it first. The NY Times' statements are before the others and, rather than giving a specific date, it states that they were published before the crackdown. It mentions that the Chinese government's statement was given after the crackdown. Mine also mentions the source of the NY Times figure.

Can we come to a consensus on which version is preferable? Mcconn 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The first version, but after substituting actual date for references to the crackdown and suppression. That puts the presentation of the numbers in chronological order and doesn't allow for bias in any way. CovenantD 18:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a change in bold based on what you said. What do you think? Also, by saying "mine" I'm referring to the version I prefer. I'm not saying I wrote it. Mcconn 18:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, I need to look at the references. I just realized that I haven't actually confirmed the information being presented, so caught up in style and checking reliability of sources. I also want to confirm the dates that are used. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• This sentence is a POV "There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong." Taking out this unimportant sentence also shortens the article "According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government." --Samuel Luo 18:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's why I originally had a {{citation needed}} tag on it. :-) The first sentence of that paragraph needs to say what the figures are talking about. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed the People's Daily number and date, made the change above. CovenantD 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What's POV about it? I think it's entirely relevant to state why we can quote exact figures. The reason we can't is because there are no members or formal organization to keep track of them. I don't think we need to cite something that doesn't exist unless there are others who say that it does exist. This statement is pretty undisputed. Mcconn 18:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed the two NYT articles, corrected the date to the 27 of August, 1999. Confirmed the ClearWisdom numbers.

Mcconn, here's what I suggest. We move the second NYT citation to support the "no organization" assertion, changing the wording give proper attribution. Thus the first sentence becomes, "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time, says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, according to the New York Times.[3]" The exact number of practitioners is not known." CovenantD 18:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Summary Of the three intro paragraphs, this is the one that's had the most discussion. I think we're close to an agreement. So far we seem to be in agreement on including all three sets of numbers and a statement that the true number in not known. Does everybody agree to that? I think a straw poll might be in order. CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll There should be a statement that the true number of practitioners is not known. All three sets of numbers should be presented, in chronological order.

• Support CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

origin

The folowing statements talk about the bio itself rather than Li and the Falun Gong. It serves no purpose here. Can I take it out?

In Li Hongzhi’s Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, a question was asked to Mr. Li: "I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master’s biography. Is this appropriate?" and he answered:

No. I don’t want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan falun. Now I had asked them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consummation.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Luo (talk • contribs)

It addresses the issue of the legitimacy of the bio. IF the legitimacy of the bio is in dispute then that should be noted somewhere and this becomes relevant. IF the legitimacy of the bio is not in doubt then there's no need for it. That's my take on it anyway. CovenantD 19:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you can't take it out. Your reasoning demonstrates a POV which, I assume, is meant to support Li's decision to pull his authorized biography from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun. If this were a Falun Gong web page, it would be understandable that you wouldn't want to report the content of this biography. However, this is an on-line encyclopedia, and as such relevant information which is verifiable...and this early biography is certainly verifiable...needs to be reported. Frankly, how can you even suggest that an early authorized biography of the founder of Falun Gong isn't relevant to a report on its origins? --Tomananda 19:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, please assume good faith. CovenantD 20:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I do. I assume good faith, but also POV for all of us. The intent in my post above was to point out that even though we all have our POV's, the Wikipedia standard is not to allow the suppression of information in edits merely because of one editor's POV.--Tomananda 20:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ooops, I see my post was a total non-sequitor, since I am referring to the biography itself (as reported in the second paragraph) and not the related Li quote. My post was meant to appear above. Sorry about that. --Tomananda 21:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Tomananda did a good job in tracking down Li's bio. Since the legitimacy of the bio is no longer in question, I am deleting those statements in question here. It makes the paper read better. --Samuel Luo 01:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Origin v History & Timeline

I see that some of the edit warring was over the name of the section. It seems to have settled down now into the compromise of calling the section "Origins" and linking to an article called "History and timeline." I just want to confirm that this is indeed the agreed upon style. CovenantD 19:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the original style that existed almost from day one and its the only style that makes sense. The material in the origins section is fundamental to an understanding of the Falun Gong. It is actually more important than a mere listing of chronological events, which is what the recently created History and timeline page does. In fact, there never was consensus to creat a separate page called "History and timeline." I don't really object to it, but it's existence cannot be used to justify the suppression of important information about the origins of Falun Gong. If needed, we can simply have a stand-alone section on "Origins" that doesn't link to "History and timeline."....and by the way, did anyone ever re-write the intro to that page?

--Tomananda 19:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer your last question, no, but then again there's been no note and no discussion about it, so you're just being facetious.

Actually another editor...I'm pretty sure it was you...did mention that the intro to that page needed to be written, because it is just a copy of the main page intro, not specific to History and timelines, so I was being sincere and goal-oriented rather than facetious. Maybe I should have actually checked the page before posing it as a question, but I didn't. --Tomananda 20:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was being a bit facetious at that point. It's in the Research into health benefits of Falun Gong article that I mention it, but you are correct in that it applies to many different articles. Now that you bring it up, I might as well go through all of them and root out the inappropriate duplicates. CovenantD 20:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's your opinion that it's essential to an understanding. Let's be clear on the difference between fact and opinion. An understanding without knowing the origins is possible, it's just a different understanding. And yes, I realize that's just my opinion. ;-)

Yes, it is just my opinion. I think here you are merely objecting to my style of writing which can be didactic at times. I write with confidence, but when it comes to negotiating postitions I am very flexible. --Tomananda 20:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Objecting to a tanget, maybe. since it doesn't effect it's inclusion or not. Of course info should be included that is relevant, reliable and properly sourced. It's just a matter of where. CovenantD 20:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm don't care either way, or even a different way, (I haven't even looked at the differences yet) but I want to make sure that this issue is discussed and decided so we don't get into another edit war over it. CovenantD 20:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with you more. Anything that prevents another revert war is cool with me! --Tomananda 20:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

So the floor is open to suggestions for the naming of the section or sections, and what companion articles should be linked to which. CovenantD 20:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Origin section has been there since the beginning of the article. History and timeline should have its own section. --Samuel Luo 19:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to write a one sentence summary for the History and Timeline section and link to the separate page. CovenantD 22:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that we have an independent section on Origins

Having read the Penny article and the authorized biography, I feel there is a wealth of material here that warrants its own section. The origins section could include highlights of Penny's analysis of the edit changes done between the first version of the biography and the shortened Zhuan Falun version. I believe all of this provides an insight into the origins of Falun Gong which won't be available any other way. I am here copying some excerpts from the Zhuan Falun (authorized) version so people who haven't been able to download their own copy can get an idea of the material:

A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi Founder of Falun Xiulian Dafa, President of the Research Society of Falun Buddha Science

(List of teachers)

• At the age of four, Mr. Li received personal instructions from Law Master Quan Jue, the 10th heir to the Great Law of the Buddha School which has been handed down to only one disciple each time, and began his cultivation of the supreme qualities "Zhen Shan Ren" ( Truth Compassion Forbearance).

(break).

• His first master left him when he was twelve. On the point of leaving, the master said to him, "A new master will come to teach you." The second master mainly taught him Taoist Gongfu. He began to practise boxing,sword-and-spear play and did the integrated cultivation of both external and internal exercise. The master would take him to an isolated place and keep him company when he was practising. When doing the riding stance, he would keep the posture for hours. He practised so hard that he often dripped with sweat.

(break)

• Soon his second master, for whom he had a deep affection, was also to leave him. On the eve of departure, the master said to him, I'm called Eight-Pole-Immortal. I'm wandering about without any destination. After I am gone, the only thing you should keep in mind is: Practise diligently

(2)

• Mr. Li got a job in 1972. That year, a third master - a master of the Great Way School with the Taoist alias of True Taoist came from the Changbai Mountains. Unlike his two former masters, this master wore no Taoist's robe, but he was dressed like an ordinary man. He never said where he lived. This master mainly taught inner cultivation.

(break)

• The master of the Great Way School was gone in 1974. Later, came a female master of the Buddha School,who chiefly taught Buddha School's cultivation principles and exercise to him.

(break)

• Over a period of about a dozen of years, he received instructions successively from more than twenty masters from both the Buddha School and the Tao School, with a different master teaching him at each different level of cultivation.

(break)

(Supernatural Powers)

• Now, Mr. Li's energy potency has reached an extremely high level. Some of his supernatural powers are difficult for ordinary people to imagine or understand.

(break)

• Mr. Li's energy potency reached an extremely high level. Above all,he has been able to see the truth of the universe, many more beautiful things which have existed there for a long time, as well as the origin, development and future of mankind.

(3) (break)

• With the growth of his energy potency, he came to understand mankind and human life better and better.

(break)

(Creation of a great law)

• He decided to create a great Law suitable for ordinary people to cultivate based on the great Law which had been imparted only to himself and which he had been cultivating alone for so many years as a means of achieving this goal.

(break)

• From 1984, Mr. Li started making a serious investigation into different qigong activities at home and abroad and attended a number of qigong impartment classes. He analysed the characteristics of modern people, as the Great Law, which would find its cultivators among ordinary people, should adapt itself to their way of life.

(break)

• Everybody looks forward to a happy life, but they meet with every kind of misfortune because they have lost their true selves. Therefore, Mr. Li was determined to create a great Law- Falun Buddha Law suitable for the cultivation of contemporary people (because the Great Law of Falun Cultivating the Buddhas Mr.Li had cultivated in the past was a grand-scale cultivation way and could not be popularized on a large scale). Beginning from 1984, Mr. Li devoted his whole body and mind to the adaptation work of Falun Buddha Law. The Law Wheels of the Buddha School, the Yin and Yang of the Tao School, and everything in the ten Directions, all find their reflections in Falun Buddha Law without exception.

(break)

• The design of Falun Dafa was basically finalized in 1989 . But Mr. Li was not anxious to make it public at once. .

(4) (break)

• Besides, Mr. Li also plants Falun into other parts of the students' bodies to cure their diseases or help them practise. These Falun never stop rotating. They adjust the practitioners' bodies automatically. In order to help the students grasp the essentials of the exercise, he also plants Qiji ( the energy mechanism) around the students' bodies. Like Falun, it circulates incessantly, guiding the students to the correct movements and enabling the energy in their channels to circulate along the Heavenly Circuit.

(break)

• Being enlightened, Mr. Li has a deep insight into the mysteries of the cosmos, which enables him to dispel the miasma in which the present-day world of qigong is shrouded.

Penny treats these biographies with great respect as examples of the form of religious biographies found in the Buddhist and Daosist tradition of China. The actual text is presented as a poem, broken up into five different chapters. If there is consensus, I am willing to work on a summary of Penny's findings in order to create an article on Origins which I think would be very interesting for readers of Wikipedia. --Tomananda 23:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: When accessing this document on the Way Back archive machine, I found that there are two ways to get to it. You should get to a screen which shows horizontal years and under two of the years there are clickable months and dates for pages that were archived at that time. If you get to that screen, you need to click on one of the specific dates under one of the months (sorry, I didn't make a note as to which date, but I think it was January). However, I have also found that sometimes you wind up with a verticle listing of 865 pages, and many of those pages don't open. So if you're having trouble with this, the alternative URL that should work directly is: [4] --Tomananda 03:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm just here to artibtrate and increase the quality of these articles, so I'd rather hear what others think. CovenantD 03:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The question is who wrote it?? and what is it based on? This was written by a journalist.. of what relevance is that?

Please show all the sources (website links etc) for all these materials. /Omido 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Who wrote the authorized biography of Li Hongzhi? Why not ask Li? The point is that it appeared in copies of Zhuan Falun for several years and therefore counts as an authorized biography. The more pertinent question to ask is this: Why did Li decide to remove the biography from later editions of the Zhuan Falun? Why was it ok to publish that biography in the early years and then all of a sudden it became not ok? Li said in his answer he wanted people to focus on his Dafa rather than the details of his life. That's fine, but then why did he ever allow the biography to appear in one of his official publications?

As to web pages, I have already given the link to the authorized biography which is an archived copy of a page on a Falun Gong website. It's the authorized version of the biography we are discussing now, so I don't see any point in tracking down sources for the other biography at this point.--Tomananda 18:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed abusive messages

I have removed some abusive messages on this talk page from Archaos2. See here and here.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 12:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Also here.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

And from a bunch of IP addresses too. I've semi-protected this talk page. If the article page and/or subpages and/or talk pages of subpages and/or user pages gets vandalised repeatedly, get someone to semi-protect those as well. (I can't after 9 AM PST, that is UTC -800.) -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|M|E|Remember 6/4!} 15:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

New York times figure delted again, article says falun gong banned for "illegal" activities.... the intro needs to be made factual.. < Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are the teachings of "Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance" and five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries.

   On July 20, 1999 the People's republic of China began a Nation-wide Supression of Falun Gong. This has been considered a major Human-rights violation world-over.

   There being no concept of organization of membership in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China. After the supression began, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles before the crackdown began.[29][30] According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government.

Please point out anything non-factual or irrelevant to the introduction

Back to the intro

We're still trying to finalize wording on the three paragraphs of the intro. I'm linking to the relevant parts of this talk page - please add your comments there. Let's get this done folks. CovenantD 18:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

agree, let's only make changes after reaching agreement here. To show my good faith, I am adding the NY Times figure to the third paragraph. I am sure pro-FG editors woud not have problem with this. --Samuel Luo 19:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

1st paragraph of intro

My Suggestion

Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are the teachings of "Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance" and five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries. Dilip rajeev 19:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The following version has no POV: Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa refers to a set of religious dogma which teaches that Li is the one who atones the sins of all sentient beings and provides salvation to humankind.--Samuel Luo 19:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, looking at the differences - Samuel, what do you consider POV about the first version? What is said that is opinion?

Dilip, would you disagree with the last sentence of Samuel's version?

- CovenantD 19:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The name Falun Dafa doenst refer to the teachings, It is the name of the cultivation system.Dilip rajeev 20:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip: Li says his Dafa (literally translated great law) is judging all people during this period of Fa-rectification. To say that Dafa is "the name of the cultivation system" conceals the fundamental teaching of the Dafa, which is about moral judgment and salvation. If you want, suggest alternative wording for that last sentence, but the wording must not obscure the fundmental teaching of Li Hongzhi, which is that his Dafa is judging people and he (and his Dafa) are the only way to obtain salvation.

Also, just to make this point further, here are two quotes from what Li says about the Dafa:

Dafa is the Fa (Law) of the cosmos, and Dafa has created all beings in the cosmos. “Using at Will” (June 28, 2000 ) in Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 12.

I am telling you now that Dafa belongs to me, Li Hongzhi. It is taught to save you and spoken from my mouth. “Awakening” (May 27, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I

Given these quotes, and many others I can produce from Li himself, it would not be honest to report that Dafa is the name of a cultivation system. --Tomananda 21:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It is important that this paragraph distinguish between Falun Gong and Falun Dafa. The general public doesn't know that the exercises (Falun Gong) are not as important as Li's teachings on salvation (which he alone provides) and morality, which is his "Dafa" or "great law." Li does say he atones for eveyone's sins and is the only one offering salvation to all sentient beings at this time. That is the fundamental message of the Falun Gong. How exactly to word that can be debated, but some version of Samuel's last sentence is essential.--Tomananda 20:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This sentence is a POV in my opinion. "The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries." --Samuel Luo 20:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not only POV, it is a piece of self-promotion that does not belong in an introductory statement. --Tomananda 22:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha! I get it. It's the bit about the growing popularity world-over, isn't it? How about if that were taken out and it read, "The teachings have been translated into over 40 languages...." I think it is relevant to show the extent of it's reach, in a NPOV and factual way. Citing numbers is the best way to do that, assuming we can find numbers that we agree on. CovenantD 22:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Fine with me.--Tomananda 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Central to Falun Gong?

Not just the five sets of exercies. The most important (I think) is the teachings. Actually, it is said in the Zhuan Falun Talk One[5]

In intellectual circles there’s always been the question of whether matter is primary or mind is primary. They’ve been talking about this and debating it for a long time. I’m going to tell you, in reality, matter and mind are one and the same.

Fnhddzs 02:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In the book Zhuan Falun, both the terms "Falun Gong" and "Falun Dafa" are used. I could find quotes later.

I am surprised to see this article splits Falun Gong and Falun Dafa. It is not true. Falun Gong is a mind and body double cultivation system. Falun Gong is also called Falun Dafa. In Answers to Commonly Asked Questions on the www.falundafa.org website,

Q: What is Falun Dafa, or Falun Gong? A: Falun Dafa, also known as Falun Gong, is an ancient practice for mind and body, originating in pre-historic China. The practice involves some slow, gentle movements and a meditation. It is easy to learn, enjoyable to practice, and free of charge. A central component of Falun Gong practice is studying the universal principles of truthfulness, benevolence, and tolerance.

Also in falundafa.org website [6], it is also said "Falun Gong (also called Falun Dafa) is an ancient form of qigong, the practice of refining the body and mind through special exercises and meditation. " Fnhddzs 01:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa and Falun Gong are used interchangably amongst practitioners. A believe that the name "Falun Gong" was adopted to fit in with or be similar to the names of other qigongs, which all ended with the word "gong" (referring to exercises). "Gong" here does literally refer only to the exercises, which is one reason why most practitioners use "Falun Dafa" more often, but although that's the literal meaning it has basically taken on the same meaning as "Falun Dafa" in use. Mcconn 16:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this sentence (“religious dogma which teaches that Li is the one who atones the sins of all sentient beings and provides salvation to humankind”) is included in the introduction because it is simply put and is very grand. However, as grand as the statements may be, they’re not central enough to be included in the introductory paragraph. How does a person practice Falun Dafa? He does the exercises, studies Mr. Li’s teachings (with Zhuan Falun as the core), and diligently tries to improve his moral character and let go attachments by applying the teachings. This is how you practice Falun Dafa and this is what Mr. Li’s teachings are about. That sentence should talk about what Falun Dafa is, not about grand statements made by Mr. Li. In addition, whether Falun Gong is a religion is a matter of opinion and dispute, but no one will deny that it’s spiritual. So “spiritual” is a better term than “religious”. Also whether it is “dogma” is also a matter of opinion and dispute, but they are clearly “teachings”. So “teachings” is better than “dogma”. Here is my suggestion:

Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law"), also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law"), is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation) and a set of spiritual teachings which lay emphasis on moral improvement according to the principles of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance. Falun Gong is practiced in approximately 80 countries and the teachings have been translated into over 40 languages. Mcconn 18:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

---

Agree with the above suggested by Mcconn. Hi, other editors, please express your opinions on the first paragraph. Thanks. Fnhddzs 02:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

AgreeDilip rajeev 18:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

2nd paragraph of intro

Dilip's suggestion

On July 20, 1999 the People's republic of China began a Nation-wide Supression of Falun Gong. This has been considered a major Human-rights violation world-over. Dilip rajeev 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

---

The following verion provides more info:

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities. The Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.--Samuel Luo 19:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip, your version is a bit skimpy and could be seen as POV because of that.

Samuel, isn't this the version currently in place?

- CovenantD 19:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing I want to get settled ASAP is including the word alleged in front of illegal activities. Can we get a show of hands? CovenantD 22:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, we don't know the CCP's true intentions for the suppression. I think it's actually much more complicated than that. So we should say something like "the Chinese government claims...". So unless this change is made I don't support. Mcconn 18:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support CovenantD 22:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Unless there are further reports of the trials of those who were arrested at least in the Tianjin Incident, I support the usage o the word. --Yenchin 05:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I support introducing the word "alleged" ASAP. But, in my opinion using the word "illegal" unnecessary...The reader is completely unaware what these alleged illegal activity is. And we also need to mention that the supression is considered a major violation of Human Rights, world over. Dilip rajeev 11:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm reposting my above comment (altered version) so that it doesn't get missed. We don't know the CCP's true intentions for the suppression. I think it's actually much more complicated than that. So rather than simply say that it was suppressed for "alleged illegal activities" we should say something like "the Chinese government claims... alleged illegal activities". So unless this change is made I don't support. Mcconn 04:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the April 25, 1999 is an appeal, instead of a protest. Here is an article from clearwisdom.net (a Falun Gong practitioners' website)[7]

Over the past several years, the Mainland police have spread lies on many occasions that "so many people went to protest, any country would suppress them." Many people have been misled by the media, and believed that Falun Gong practitioners' April 25 "besieging Zhongnanhai" lead to later suppression. In fact, firstly, "April 25" was not besieging the government, but a peaceful appeal, completely conforming to the law and reason. Secondly, Falun Gong practitioners' appeal was peaceful and out of their kindness, it was their trust to the government but not opposing the government. The third point, on the day of "April 25," with direct concern from Premier of State Council, Falun Gong practitioners and Appeals Office leaders had a meeting. They reached a common understanding and reasonably resolved the violent arrest of dozens of innocent Falun Gong practitioners in Tianjin.

Fnhddzs 05:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Mcconn's suggestion

I was just about to make this change in the main page since nobody has responded to mine and Fnhddzs' posts, but I changed my mind and decided it to post it here first. If no one responds after a few hours then I'll consider it ok and put it into the main page.

---

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999'. The government claims that it initiated the suppression in reponse to Falun Gong's alleged illegal activities.' Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.

---

What do you think? (actually do we have source that verifies this claim?)Mcconn 18:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel's suggestion

• There is no consensus in adding "alleged" to this paragraph but I am not going to take it out yet. I propose using the following to replace the existing version. Finishing this paragraph by mentioning the group’s popularity introduces the next paragraph.

---

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999. The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities. [8] The Falun Gong claims the ban a result of president Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity.[9]

---

• --Samuel Luo 18:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The use of "illegal activites" must be avoided. We also need to mention that the supression has been considered a major human-rights violation. The reader doesnt know what the "alleged illegal activity" is. Dilip rajeev 20:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

We should be able to accept Samuel's new wording since it simply reports both POV's and even provides links for people to get more information. We don't need any more than this in the introduction, but can introduce much more in the crack-down section. (By the way, I don't think we ever agreed to the change in title for that page from Crackdown to Persecution.) --Tomananda 22:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

We didn't. In fact, I believe we were at the point where several people felt it was inherently POV. (I've been waiting for somebody to bring it up...) CovenantD 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, but can people at least to agree to one editing principle, which is that when there seems to be irreconcilable differences of opinion on how to report something, that we should try to agree to a "two sentence" strategy such as shown above? One sentence would succintly report one position (with a link) and the other would report the counter position (also with a link.) Unless I am missing something here, that approach should work well. If we agree to the approach in general, then we just need to agree if the wording for each sentence is reasonable and verifiable, such as Samuel has suggested above. --Tomananda 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Samuel's new wording is good to me except the use of "illegal activites". Definitely not acceptable on that. Fnhddzs 05:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hmm, Fnhddzs how about "peaceful activities" would that satisfy you? Please don't miss the magic word "claims." --Samuel Luo 06:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

A few things.

1. The date of the first reference is 22 July, 1999, not 20 July.
2. In the last sentence, President should be capitalized.
3. Dilip may be right in saying that the "activities" could be expanded on in a completely NPOV manner, by using the wording from the announcement. Thus the second sentence becomes,

The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities Research Society of Falun Dafa for not been registered according to law, advocating superstition and spreading fallacies, hoodwinking people, inciting and creating disturbances, and jeopardizing social stability.[10]

- CovenantD 14:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding why CCP persecutes Falun Gong, it seems to me that Master Li[11] said "why the malevolent CCP wants to persecute Falun Gong" was addressed in "Nine Commentaries on the X Party". So we may refer to these two articles We Are Not “Getting Political”by Master Li and On the Collusion of Jiang Zemin and the Chinese Communist Party to Persecute Falun Gong in "Nine Commentaries". Fnhddzs 20:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, folks. How about the 2nd paragraph? I don't agree with the current version. it is not a protest in Zhongnan hai. It was an appeal. Fnhddzs 01:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddz, Samuel had asked you a question just a few posts above. If you answer that, we may have a version that both side agree on. CovenantD 02:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, CovenantD. Is the question about using "peaceful activities"? it seems good to me. The Research Society of Falun Dafa quitted from Qiqong Research Association long time before 1999. That was not an issue. Before April 25, 1999, many practitioners in Tianjin were arrested and Tianjin's upper level administration is Beijing since Tianjin does not belong to a province. So in the normal channel, the next step is to go to Beijing to appeal. Everything was legal. The Appeal office is quite close to Zhongnanhai. Practitioners in the beginning just scattered on the side streets. Policemen said why not you folks circled around the wall of the Zhongnanhai? It seemed a trick. Finally Premier Zhu Rongji happened to see practitioners and promised to release the practitioners in Tianjin. Then everything was all right. Then the Xinhua agency published an artile restating China's policy to Qiqong: three-no policy. (No stick-beating, no debation, no report 不打棍子、不争论、不报导). sorry that is just my direct translation. However, things changed later when Jiang, Zemin knew this. On July 22, 1999, a statement was released funnily by China Ministry of Civil Affairs (中国民政部)[12] stating that Falun Gong illegal.

Anyway, on April 25, the appeal was peaceful and fruitful. Things changed later and had nothing to do with that appeal although the later government lies said that justified the ban. Fnhddzs 23:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In Master Li's talk [http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jw_88.htm Teaching the Fa at the 2002 Fa Conference in Philadelphia, U.S.A. November 30, 2002] The true reason seems as below:

So what was the goal of this evil persecution? Was it to protect the regime? Not at all, really. Saying that Falun Gong poses a threat to China’s regime is just a huge lie that’s spread by the evil. A lot of people have asked me, and a lot of people have asked my disciples this too: what’s the true reason for this persecution? Just a buffoon’s jealousy. Since it has power it’s able do something like this. That might sound pretty ridiculous, or maybe hard to believe—how could something like this happen to mankind, right? But it really has happened. This persecution has happened, as absurd as it may be, due to that buffoon being driven by its twisted jealousy. That’s exactly the reason. That’s the real cause we see here in human society.

Fnhddzs 23:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear all: I am still waiting on a solution on this paragraph. It is not in a right shape! Fnhddzs 00:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Edits

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999, which has been considered a major Human-Rights violation world-over[13][14][15][16][17][18][19]. Concerns were triggered when 10,000 practitioners appealed peacefully close to Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.

Hi, Folks: Please look at this version. There is no consensus on the current version. It cannot stay there forever. Can we set a deadline? Fnhddzs 06:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favor of a deadline. I'd say no more than 5 days, so by midnight (UTC) Wednesday? CovenantD 13:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support No Opinion I thought I was supporting the deadline. CovenantD 13:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

:-D .. i agree to the deadline too..

• Support. I agree to the version above but I believe that mentioning that this has been considered a major Human-Rights violation, world-over is quite central to the article. I am not sure how to phrase the sentence.Dilip rajeev 18:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
• I've made a change. I would add more citations. I would agree that the deadline of Midnight Wednesday. How about others? Anyway we need a deadline. Fnhddzs 18:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Added one more source[20].. H Con Res 188Dilip rajeev 20:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

3rd paragraph of intro

For the full discussion on the 3rd paragraph of the introducion, see /Archive 10.

Straw poll

There should be a statement that the true number of practitioners is not known. All three sets of numbers should be presented, in chronological order.

• Support CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• SupportDilip rajeev 20:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support Fnhddzs 20:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support Mcconn 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support --Fire Star 火星 01:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Including three figures is fine with me, why Don't you show the revised third paragraph here? --Samuel Luo 21:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I want to make sure we all agree on what should be included before we agree on the wording. I'm just waiting on a few more people... CovenantD 22:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I support the straw poll proposal as well. --Tomananda 22:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

On the word "main"

Fnhddzs, does that mean that you agree to have it in the 3rd paragraph? Dilip, what about you? CovenantD 00:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• When the group itself calls this website a main website I don't think consensus is needed. Are we going to stop calling the Chinese government a authoritative regime if there is no consensus? --Samuel Luo 00:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I just don't want another revert war over this. I want them to put in writing that they agree to this. CovenantD 00:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I am ok except that I added a "A" before it. "A main Falun Dafa website" Fnhddzs 00:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, it should say "a main Falun Dafa website." --Tomananda 01:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip, elsewhere on this page, has expessed his approval of the 3rd paragraph. We've done it folks. We have a paragraph that everybody has explicitly agreed to!! CovenantD 16:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

3rd Party Intervention

What we truly need, although contrary to major Wikipedia principles, is a third party to look into the issue of Falun Gong that has very little to no prior knowledge. This suggestion, being the only solution left in editing this article, is incredibly idealistic in and of itself. Debating about Falun Gong is currently more controversial than debate about the existence of Jesus. People on both sides will never reach a consensus, and as new back-up evidence continues to surface for both sides in this issue, it is really impossble to ever complete this article in any of our sentient lifetimes. Colipon+(T) 23:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The 3rd Paragraph

The NY Times figure has disappeared one more time. I am reverting it to the version Covenant introduced. And deleting Samuel's personal website from the references section. Dilip rajeev 18:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Citing sources

I'm going to start revamping the References list based on the guidelines found at Wikipedia:Citing sources. I also want to add a short list of Wikipedia articles for people to read at the top of the this talk page. It would include stuff like Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Notability, and Wikipedia:Verifiability. CovenantD 00:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. try to work together with you all. Fnhddzs 01:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Related Legal Cases

Template:Cawley v. Malin Cawley v. Malin - New York State Supreme Court, U.S.A. A divorce case filed on the grounds of fraud, adultery and mental cruelty as a result of espionage for the Falun Gong against the Chinese Government. www.courts.state.ny.us [21]

• Note - the court system does not permit hyperlinks directly.

You can search on court case reference number 24648/2003 I can fax you copies of the court documents if you insist. Also, Rick Ross has been retained as an expert witness. Likewise, I can fax you a copy of the fee agreement.

Dear Falun Gong members:

You can remove this section; however, you can not remove THE TRUTH.

Sincerely Chris Cawley

Plea to pro-Falun Gong editors

User pages of several non-Falun Gong practioner editors, as well as this main article page, have been hit again by apparently pro-Falun Gong vandal(s) today. A few days ago there was a similar incident, user pages and this talk page as well as the main article were all hit.

It goes without saying that vandalism is counterproductive for Wikipedia. As such, in the (hopefully unlikely) scenario that you might know who carried out or was behind these attacks, other editors and I hope you would advise them to stop their vandalism. Thank you. -- Миборовский 05:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

this user Redzsuckz has also vandalized the article. It was created earlier today. --Samuel Luo 08:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It was blocked indefinitely. We can revert any change he makes without breaking a sweat, so he ends up wasting much more manhours than we will. Though it would be good if we didn't have to, which is where vandal-hunting bots come in handy... :D -- Миборовский 09:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You know, that vandal really reflects badly upon you FLG folks. Zhen Shan Ren? Heh. Look, we'd really appreciate a page without vandals. So please, if you can do anything to stop it, please do. -- Миборовский 09:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not add junks on the article

[22]

Fnhddzs 05:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It has been removed. Now, if there wasn't that annoyingly (but harmlessly) persistent vandal this would probably not have stayed there as long as it did. ;) -- Миборовский 06:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Continuing with the Edits

Covenant.. Lets carry on with the job of scrutinizing material on the main page and cleaning up the article.

We have reached consensus on the 3rd paragraph of intro. It is hoped that nobody would change it.

The first and second paragraphs of the intro

The second paragraph said Falun Gong was banned for "illegal activities".. somebody again deleted the "alleged" word. I have deleted the phrase which is completely non-factual and and an unnecessary extrapolation. Dilip rajeev 15:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Covenant.. I think we must carry on the discussion of the first two paragraphs..

A few suggestions:

1. Have a section on talk page for keeping paragraphs on which a consensus has been reached. That way a lot of arguments can be saved
2. Set deadlines for discussing each paragraph on talk page.

Dilip rajeev 15:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

1. I think I want to move the 3rd paragraph discussion into /Archive 10. I'll put a placeholder in so they can be integrated as we finish other paragraphs.
2. Already suggested one for midnight (UTC) for the second paragraph.

- CovenantD 16:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi biography

Could somebody please explain why "In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in Chinese Zhuan Falun from 1995 to 1999..." is still there? As I know, this biography was not a official Falun Gong material, also...this has no verifiable source, does it? If it does, I would like to see it. I am a Falun Gong practitioner and still have not even seen any bipgraphy. /Omido 19:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny you should ask... I've just finished setting up the references for the Intro and Origins sections and the biography was one of them. You can follow the inline link or you can go down to the References section and find a full reference and link there. Hope that helps! CovenantD 19:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That is a biography, not an autobiography. Also it is funny about the date from 1995 to 1999. I don't think that is right. It existed as of 1994. And it was removed since 1996.

"The Chinese version of this biography can be found in Li Hongzhi, Zhuan falun (Turning the Wheel of the Law) (Beijing: Zhongguo guangbao dianshi chubanshe, 1994) ... but has not been published in that book since 1996." Fnhddzs 20:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Omido has a point there. The biography certainly appeared in a version of Zhuan Falun by a publisher in China. But thats something a publisher chose to add as an appendix and the material was written by some journalist. It really isnt of much relevance to the article.

Dilip rajeev 20:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest it be removed from the origins part. It is not teachings. not related to Falun gong practice. not related to the article. It is not in press any more. It is out of dated. It is odd to put there. This paragraphy was not there before. Not a consensus to put it up. The article is in a warped shape, with an odd "origins" and lengthy "ethics". Fnhddzs 20:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC) I added more contents in the Origins. Everything was from the same biography. Fnhddzs 20:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I knew when I looked at this one that it was going to be trouble...

Omido, I've given you the reference.

Fnhddzs, so what if it's a biography rather than an autobiography? That's not enough reason to rule it out. And, where did you get that quote you use? It could be important. Also, just because something is out of print is not reason to exclude it. A version of the paragraph was in place when the page was frozen, as seen here [23].

Dilip, if it appeared in published copies of Zhuan Falun for multiple years, that tends to indicate that it's not a publishing mistake. Again, the fact that it was written by somebody else is not enough reason to rule it out.

I think we should leave it in place for now and give Tomananda or whoever added it a chance to respond. We've only heard from one side so far.

- CovenantD 20:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a biography and Li Hongzhi has not officialy recognized it. Further, of what relevance is a biography written by a journalist in an article of Falun Gong. Should it be taking up a major part of the page? An article on Christianity wont carry pages of criticism on Christianity... A page saying "Criticism of Christianity".. in itself is a POV if it takes up a huge portion of the article .. Anybody( with a strong POV + ulterior motives) can pull two sentences out of The Bible, put them out of context and say "elitism" and "intolerance".. and then get two books from the market to "substantiate" his claim. Dilip rajeev 21:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Unauthorized biographies are still valid sources.
I'll grant that some of this may be more appropriate for Li's article than this one.
To use an example that's been cited here before Scientology has a criticism article and a pretty extensive summary right in the main article.
But that's starting to get into structure, and this section of the talk page is about Li's biography so I'll stop. CovenantD 21:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like the stuff in the same biography, then do not use it at all. Fnhddzs 21:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? CovenantD 22:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You suggest removing the text I added from the biography. I think we cannot hide information if the biography is used. Either do not use it or keep full information. Fnhddzs 22:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been busy with non-Falun Gong related political activities recently and have not been able to keep up with all these postings. Even though I was not the editor who added the paragraph about Li's authorized biography in the Origins section, I feel strongly it belongs there. Here's why:

• Early writings about the biographies of historical figures are definitely relevant to a report on their "origins"...in fact, these writings are likely to be more relevant than material that comes later, since over time leaders and organizations tend to re-invent themselves and modify their messages.
• The existing biographical records about Jesus were written by contemporaries after his death. The "gospels"...Mathew, Mark, Luke and John...were all written decades after his death, and the gnostic bible material was written a century or more after the gospels. These sources do not agree on historcial points, but nevertheless they are key historical documents for the life of Jesus. And religious scholars (eg: Karen Armstrong) generally give the most biographical weight to earliest writings for obvious reasons.
• The fact that Li had this early biography deleted from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun is, of itself, relevant to his biography and needs to appear in Wikipedia.
• Although the Zhuan Falun version of the biography was partially based on an earlier version written by a journalist, it is by no means the same document. As Penny points out, there are significant differences between the longer earlier version and the edited (and changed) Zhuan Falun version.
• Penny has used the term "authorized" to describe the Zhuan Falun biography and for good reason. Practitioners may be reluctant to acknowledge the degree of control Li Hongzhi exerts over his publiclations, but that control is easily proven by many of Li's own statements. Here's a good example from Li's 1996 writing called "Awakening" in the Essential for Further Development:

Disciples must remember: All Falun Dafa texts are the Fa that I have taught, and they are revised and edited personally by me. From now on, no one may take excerpts from the tape recordings of my lectures on the Fa, or compile them into written materials.

• Notice that Li sid that he revises and edits all Falun Dafa texts. Since the Zhuan Falun is Falun Gong's most important text, and the master said in 1996 that he reviews and edits the content of these books, how can anyone question the "authenticity" of that biography? The fact that the biogrpahy no longer is authorized by Li does not diminish it's relevance. In fact, I think it becomes more relevant precisely because Li had it pulled from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun.

Finally, as Covenant points out, even unaothorized biographies can be used as sources for people's lives --Tomananda 22:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• That Bio was not written by people outside of the Falun Gong but the Falun Dafa Reseach Society chaired by Li. Also this Bio was written under Li’s authorization, he is the only one who knows his many masters and training. It was published in Zhuan Falun from 1994 to 1999 and provided info about the origin of the Falun Gong and Li’s wisdom and supernatural power. Falun Gong practitioners are again trying to conceal the truth. You guys are abunch of liers --Yueyuen 01:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Article structure

Now that we've had some success on finding agreement on a paragraph of the intro, do you think we should look at the structure of the article again? Many of the daughter articles have been created and editing is going on in them, but we should decide which ones are good and which ones need to be renamed or combined or split. I think it's time, if not now then when we finish the second paragraph. CovenantD 20:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It's important to look at the other articles too, but I recommend we at least try to finalize what we have agreed to in the introduction section while the topics are fresh in everyones' mind. Could you just post below what you conisider to be the approved text, or did you do that above and maybe I missed it. Also, I'd like to finish the second paragraph first --Tomananda 22:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The only one we've agreed on is the 3rd paragraph and that's already in the article. The discussion for the 1st and the 2nd are somewhere above this. I can refactor so that they're at the bottom again if people want. CovenantD 22:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)