Talk:Restoring Honor rally

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wikiposter0123 (talk | contribs) at 22:53, 29 August 2010 (→‎Neutrality in intro?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Merit Honorees

Should we add a section on the recipients of the merit "badges" for Faith, Hope, and Charity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geekrecon (talk • contribs) 18:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, considering that the most in-depth part of the article constitutes a discussion of the opposition, and almost nothing is said about the actual content of the rally... that would seem appropriate.--216.188.230.134 (talk) 03:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the 3 awards and their recipients should be added to the article with a reference.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 03:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Photograph

Maybe we should add an aerial photograph of the crowd after the event is over as there has been a great deal of speculation as to how many people showed up. 174.99.91.186 (talk) 20:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This entire article needs photographs. Hopefully some users who attended will start to upload some.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 03:49, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Allahpundit

Is Allahpundit a reliable source? I think we could find a better one. Stonemason89 (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as how this blogger is anonymous, I would say no.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing how this is also a blogger, and even bigger no.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 03:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Move

Resolved

Putting "Restoring honor" in quotations is clearly an attempt to discredit it, and/or input skepticism into the title. We don't refer to the Reclaim the Dream commemorative march as the "Reclaim the Dream" commemorative march. Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The quotation marks were utilized in the first ABC News reference, and thus were included in the title. I believe that rather than an attempt to discredit the title, by placing "Restoring Honor" in qts, we are showing that this is the way Beck himself officially referred to it (admittedly, quotation marks can be problematic though because of the common disingenuous use of air quotes to imply sarcasm). I am open to other options or arguments though. For instance, per WP:Undue, do the majority of ref’s utilize the " marks?   Redthoreau -- (talk) 21:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, it seems they do, so with that in mind perhaps we should keep it. Nonetheless I too am open to any suggestions to make the quotation marks appear less like they are trying to make it appear disingenuous, and more like that is simply the title.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Wikiposter, the quotations look like scare quotes even if that was not the intention. I propose moving it to Restoring Honor rally to be in line with a similar event, Taxpayer March on Washington, which was organized by FreedomWorks but does not include them in their title. If we are going to have an organizer in the title, it would be more accurate to put Glenn Beck and SOWF's..." BS24 (talk) 21:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed I have no problem with a move to something like that, provided no rally with a similar name clashes. But this article should certainly be moved to something as the current title does not look quite right. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I dropped the quote marks to see if that makes a difference. Thoughts?   Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like. :) Thank you.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly Worth it's own page

Resolved

This should be merged into the Glenn Beck page and broken out if it gets too big. Soxwon (talk) 21:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I strongly disagree, it is already too big for the Glenn Beck page, and will only swell into being much larger in the next day or two.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll wait for more media coverage, but honestly, what's in the lead is probably all that's needed on the subject. Soxwon (talk) 21:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Many other important rallies have proven to be notable as this one will be notable as well.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - We only have preliminary coverage right now and it's already big. It will only get bigger. Considering the sheer size of the crowd, it is plenty notable for its own page. BS24 (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Becks article is already overloaded, this is without doubt notable enough for an article. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - we have articles on the Million Man March, Millions More Movement, and this rally is comparable in crowd size to those two (although, it has a very different political agenda). Stonemason89 (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

Just wondering what folks think about the tag "values-and-patriotism rally" at the start--wouldn't simply 'rally' suffice to be neutral, which description to follow? Ntomlin (talk) 22:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with that, should say rally and then describe it in more detail in the next sentence. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not descriptive enough. Rally was about values and patriotism. I don't see any reason to rmv that descriptor.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Edit:If you find better descriptors then go ahead and show them, but I think just rally isn't enough to describe the event.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since there is controversy as to whether or not politics were in fact involved in the rally, to stay neutral I was thinking of perhaps crediting Beck himself with the tag, modifying the first sentence from this:

Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was a values-and-patriotism rally promoted by conservative pundit Glenn Beck and held at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. on August 28, 2010.

to something like this:

Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was promoted by conservative pundit Glenn Beck as a values-and-patriotism rally and was held at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. on August 28, 2010. Ntomlin (talk) 22:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was promoted by conservative pundit Glenn Beck"
Repetitive?
How about:
Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was a 2010 Washington D.C. rally promoted as a values-and-patriotism event to restore honor in America and to raise funds for the non-profit Special Operations Warrior Foundation.

Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like that for the most part. I think it should be either 'values-and-patriotism event' or 'to restore honor in America' not both, and should use a quote from Beck rather than summary...did he say 'values-and-patriotism' or 'to restore honor in America'? If so we can cite him to maintain neutrality.

Also, how about:

The Restoring Honor rally was held in Washington D.C. in 2010 and was promoted by conservative pundit Glenn Beck as a values-and-patriotism event to raise funds for the non-profit Special Operations Warrior Foundation.

Support either of those proposed changes they are better than the present wording. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What the heck is a "values-and-patriotism rally"? This should simply be described as a rally. If you are going to use the term "values-and-patriotism rally", then it should say: Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was a self described "values-and-patriotism rally"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.240.154 (talk) 23:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

please see new change and let me know what you think--add citations if needed--there is a citation in the 2nd paragraph which I think suffices. Ntomlin (talk) 00:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was promoted by conservative pundit Glenn Beck and was held at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. on August 28, 2010. The rally was co-sponsored by the Special Operations Warrior Foundation, promoted by FreedomWorks and heavily supported by the Tea Party movement.[1]"

I think it could be better...
First off
""Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally was promoted by conservative pundit Glenn Beck"
This is like a "no duh" statement, it's needlessly repetitive.
"The rally was co-sponsored by the Special Operations Warrior Foundation,"
It should say that the rally was used to raise funds for the Special Operations Warrior Foundation.
The current wording now makes it seem like it is a political rally as it doesn't say it's a fund raising rally or supposed to restore honor, instead it just says Tea Party supports it.
I've gone ahead and added British Watcher's suggestion which I liked more, but I think we can still come up with something better.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the new intro is good in that it implies the 'values and patriotism' label is subjective. Also, the redundancy of the Beck tag in my example was forced since the old title used his name. Ntomlin (talk) 02:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
However, according to most of the sources, it was for all intents and purposes a political/religious rally and not branded as primarily being a fundraiser. For instance, the rally was initially planned as a book rollout event, and only took the SOWF fundraising alternative relatively late in the planning process. Moreover, the utilized source supports the previous wording and most sources mention the connection to the Tea Party movement and Freedom Works.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"For instance, the rally was initially planned as a book rollout event, and only took the SOWF fundraising alternative relatively late in the planning process."
Where did you hear this? I read in one of the articles(I'm having trouble finding it) on this that it was quickly changed into a fundraiser shortly after it was announced instead of being Glenn Beck's revealing of his 100 year plan.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Change title?

Should be changed to: Restoring Honor rally. No other rally titles mention people's names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protest_marches_on_Washington,_D.C. I need help changing title; don't know how to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ntomlin (talk • contribs) 00:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do it, thanks. Stonemason89 (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. The title "Restoring Honor rally" is already taken, so I had to go for "Restoring Honor rally (Washington, D. C.)". Stonemason89 (talk) 01:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think Restoring Honor rally (Glenn Beck) makes more sense.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 01:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Votes for article name ?

This article has had its name changed several times. Please choose which one you prefer?
(a) Restoring Honor Rally
(b) Restoring Honor rally
(c) Restoring Honor Rally (Glenn Beck)
(d) Restoring Honor rally (Glenn Beck)
(e) Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor Rally
(f) Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally


  • I'd prefer either either f, d or b in that order.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • B is my preference followed by D. I have to ask to those who want to add (Glenn Beck), is there another "Restoring Honor rally" that people could be confusing with this one? Wikiposter0123 (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was initially going to change it to B, but B was already taken. I still prefer B; if there were some way to get an admin to remove the redirect that currently exists at B, then I could move this article to B. Stonemason89 (talk) 02:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just copy and paste the article's text from here to B, and then make this article a redirect to B?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 02:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crowd Demographics

The section on Crowd Demographics has been challenged by two anons, one of whom just left a message on my talk page about it. I was the one who initially added that section and who has reverted both removals of it; however, I'd like to see what other editors think of that section. I still think we ought to point out the contrast between the Beck and Sharpton rallies (the former being almost 100% white, the latter one mostly black), as well as the fact that the LaRouchies tried to hijack the event for their own purposes, but the source currently used for these statements is one both of the anons have objected to, with one of them calling it biased. Any thoughts, better sources, or suggestions for how we could improve the section?

I don't see how this warrants it's own section. A single line saying Beck's rally was mostly white and Sharpton's mostly black integrated into the article would be fine without adding unnecessary weight by giving it it's own section.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 02:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That section caught me earlier as well; if I am not mistaken there is not a citation for the Sharpton demographic, or if there is, it isn't explicit enough. Does that make sense? I will look again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ntomlin (talk • contribs) 02:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's only implied in the source given, but since there are over 3,000 articles relating to this topic currently available online which could be used as potential sources, it would be quite easy to find another source that says so more explicitly. Start here. Stonemason89 (talk) 02:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh OK. In my view, though, the Star piece leans on the editorialized side, however informative it is. That's going to upset folks. Any objective demographic information out there or perhaps some will surface? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ntomlin (talk • contribs) 02:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]

Just caught the BBC article. Better, much more objective. My thought is to delete the Star and use the BBC.Ntomlin (talk) 02:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can't label a section "crowd demographics" when it only points out a few individuals saying or doing things that weren't in line with the rest of the crowd. I agree with editors above that a sentence is sufficient. BS24 (talk) 03:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the whole section was unnecessary and WP:Undue the way it was written, and took the WP:bold step of removing it. I anticipate however that I will probably be reverted.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 03:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that the section was a bit out of place as well, but didn't want to start an edit war over it. Count me as supporting the removal.--Jojhutton (talk) 04:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would also leave it out for now. Can always revist it in a few days/weeks. --Threeafterthree (talk) 15:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with either removing it/revisiting or just a sentence. A whole section is unnecessary. Falcon8765 (TALK) 20:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another source

Here is another source on the racial composition of Beck's and Sharpton's rallies: [1]. Stonemason89 (talk) 05:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

External links

Does the "Glenn Beck is Not Martin Luther King Jr. - opposition site by Glenn Greenwald" link really serve a relevant purpose to this article? It seems to me that this site is just a petition created by a left-leaning blogger with a relatively small signing base. I propose it be removed, as it appears to be here just to make a political point. Dflocks80 (talk) 06:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As of right now, the petition has over 36,000 signatures (around half of the number estimated by CBS news to have attended the rally i.e. 87,000) so I don't know if I would call it "small".   Redthoreau -- (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it wouldn't matter if a million people signed up. We don't link to self-promoation websites like that. There isn't even anything that would state that the website is notable. Arzel (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Donations, cost of rally etc ?

The lead stated:

Donations by Beck's supporters funded the event, and an additional $5.5 million (to date) was donated to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation, once the costs of the event had been covered.

This raises a few questions:
(1) A reference needs to be located.
(2) From reading the sources, I was under the impression that the total amount raised was 5.5 million, but that the cost of the rally would need to be paid out of that amount. Not that the 5.5 million was the total take after the expenses were paid for.
(3) What did the rally cost to put on? and has it already been paid for?
(4) A source would also need to be found from the SOWF foundation detailing the total amount that they are given.
Redthoreau -- (talk) 11:58, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per this Time magazine blog article, all proceeds raised through Beck's promotion of the event were slated to go to SOWF, after the estimated $1 million costs for the rally itself were covered. So it looks like around 5.5 million $ were raised, and the event was slated to cost 1 million dollars. Hopefully, in the next day or so the finalized numbers will be released and can be included fully.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 13:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
next day or so? Dam, I wish my account worked that fast :). Seriously, I hate these "current events" articles because it seems like folks are so eager to be the first to "update" articles. How will this article look a year, 5, or 10 years from now? Why the rush? Anyways, --Threeafterthree (talk) 15:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crowd size

Please, try to work professionally:
(1) Don't remove numbers which are sourced by established media sources. The numbers may contradict, but so what? It makes no sense if pro-Beck people delete all low numbers, and anti-Beck-people delete all high numbers.
(2) Make clear the background of each estimation: Is the number from the organizer or from a neutral news organization? Does the source say just in passing a rough estimate, or does the source refer to a scientific analysis, including for example also a margin of error?
(3) Always link to the source of the number.
(4) The most scientific analysis from a neutral source should be reported in the box, of course linked to the source.
93.244.200.166 (talk) 12:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody's been removing numbers.
What exactly are www.airphotoslive.com's qualifications for estimating crowd size?
Even if there is a "whole article"(a whole six sentences long blog post) if that post doesn't provide analysis and reasoning behind it's estimation, there is no reason to assume it's any different from the estimations of others.
The "most scientific analysis"? Are you kidding me? What here has led to you believe there has been anything scientific going on. Saying "with a margin of error of 9,000" might sound scientific to you, but it really doesn't indicate that a whole lot of science is going on any further.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

External links

If external links are truely notable and NPOV, hopefully they can be worked into the article rather than the start of a linkfarm. Thanks, --Threeafterthree (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no way to "work in" photo slideshows or videos into the article. Thus they are valuable as external links.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 14:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ok, but the general partisan non NPOV don't comply to ELs. --Threeafterthree (talk) 14:57, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

We can get free images here, if we want them. I'm too lazy to upload them to commons. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that link. Hopefully down the road, pictures can be worked into the article and then removed from the EL section. --Threeafterthree (talk) 15:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Page is Racist

 Fixed
LOL, Why is it written as "black civil rights leaders"? Isn't "civil rights leaders" enough? What does "black" add to the title? Nothing. I'm sure that's as mild and the writer could tone down his/her real thought.

But maybe I'm wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.23.207 (talk) 15:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a work in progress. See my comment above about current news articles. --Threeafterthree (talk) 15:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)ps, the article isn't "protected", which I am glad to see, so feel free to make changes and then be ready to comment here :) Cheers! --Threeafterthree (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's black civil rights leaders, because it's civil rights leaders of the black community for the black community, not to indicate that the leaders themselves are black. "Civil rights leaders" alone makes it seem like civil rights leaders from other causes like women's rights and gay rights are included, which for large part they aren't.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem like its too off. Could folks think of better wording? It can be confused to think the folks are being called "black". Anyways, --Threeafterthree (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about just "He has received criticism from... civil rights leaders of the black community... concerning the date and time of the event..."
Is "civil rights leaders of the black community" okay?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good compromise. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have gone ahead and changed it.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move opposition section down

The "Opposition" section should be moved down. No, not for POV reasons. Rather, the rally is described, then the opposition is described, then the rally is described some more. That is bad organization. The rally should be described first, then the opposition should be described. For example, the opposition such as from Al Sharpton who did not attend the rally appears before the section about Alveda King who spoke "I have a dream ..." at the rally. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you are saying. However, the vast majority of it is "pre-event" opposition (since renamed). Those comments that occured post-event should be moved however down below into chronological order.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 16:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, although then the opposition section gets broken up, thereby switching the problem from the rally to the opposition. Perhaps it would be best to have an opposition section containing subsections for pre-event opposition and post-event opposition.
There is also the possibility that the pre/post dichotomy is spurious/irrelevant in the first place and only appears relevant now because not enough time has past. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All opposition would be pre-event, as anything post event would simply be a reaction or criticism to the event that took place. Moreover, the section is not really broken up as 95 % of the previous section was pre-event. The article has yet to include much post-event reactions, as those are still coming in. As for relevance down the line, that's possible, although only time can help determine that.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever. It just looks wrong/POV if Al Sharpton gets higher billing than Alveda King, no matter what the reason. Etc. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alveda King's name appears several times in the article before Sharptons (she also has her own expandable subsection). As for "higher up being better", there isn't a wiki policy governing that. The article is simply chronological. Sharpton was criticizing the event before Alveda signed up to be a part of it and addressed the criticism.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Beck rejects some of King's views

I'm aware that MMFA is not the best source to use; however, this Fox News Sunday clip is quite interesting; during an interview with Chris Wallace, Beck says he doesn't agree with all of what King and the civil rights movement stood for, only some aspects of it. He dismissed certain aspects of the civil rights movement as "racial politics". Would this be worth mentioning (perhaps once someone finds a better source)?Stonemason89 (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. That may be something to put on Beck's page (and even with that, it will probably make the article more biased), but that has nothing to do with the rally. Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 21:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Beck says he doesn't agree with all of what King and the civil rights movement stood for"
Does that sound notable to you?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but once again, not relevant enough to put on the Restoring Honor rally page, but maybe Glenn's bio (even if we did put it on there, it may unbalance the neutrality that it has). Jzxpertguitarist (talk) 21:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality in intro?

Wondering what others think of this tag in the intro: "The religious and patriotic themed rally"

I believe it is an obvious subjective judgment and is called into question in countless sources...in other words, politics were claimed by Beck and others as outside of the event but still others point to examples of how politics were involved. Further, the label is not cited. Who, exactly, thinks this is religious and patriotic? Depends on the viewer. Not neutral. It is also not needed as this better, neutral and cited label is given shortly thereafter:

The rally was billed as a "celebration of America's heroes and heritage".[4]

Ntomlin (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I won't even address the religious aspect, almost every report on the rally called it religious themed. As for patriotic, this was clearly patriotic. We are talking about the theme of the rally, and no one would argue that politics was a theme of the rally. If you can find a source saying that then bring it up, otherwise I don't see the point in discussing this. Many pointed to this patriotic and religious themed rally as having political implications and motivations, but no one has argued the rally itself was political in its talks and speeches, even calling it "ostensibly non-political".Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with much of what you say. However, as you mention in the differentiation between 'theme' and 'implications and motivations,' this is a highly nuanced issue and deserves more than a cursory uncited mention, especially in the intro where you give a cited label in the very next sentence. If so crucial, why not cite it, as in the 2nd example? Further, where does Beck's overwelming focus on 'reclaiming Civil rights' fall in this thematic schema? Religious or patriotic? Seems political. Also, looking at our previous discussion, I thought we comprimised on attributing the 'theme' to Beck, the creator of the event? I suppose this doesn't seem worth arguing, but seeing that we want to maintain neutrality and this label appears in the first line of an event that might have been described as patriotic and religious yet has both political implications and arguably covert political messages. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703618504575459612802925600.html

take this line: Woodstock Music & Art Fair (informally, Woodstock or The Woodstock Festival) was a music festival, billed as "An Aquarian Exposition: 3 Days of Peace & Music".

'Billed' is very important here. This attributes the label.

imagine, instead, if it said this:

Woodstock Music & Art Fair (informally, Woodstock or The Woodstock Festival) was a peace themed music festival. Ntomlin (talk) 22:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Woodstock most definitely was peace themed and I would have no problem with saying that.
"However, as you mention in the differentiation between 'theme' and 'implications and motivations,' this is a highly nuanced issue and deserves more than a cursory uncited mention, "
There is no nuance. Although people say the rally had political implications, no one has argued that the speeches made and the rally itself was political except those who argue it was covertly political. It is clearly religious and patriotic. Do the American flags and constant peppering of speeches with religious phrases not convey that to you? The theme of the rally was religion and patriotism, you can argue it was still a political rally, but the theme is generally agreed upon.
"and this label appears in the first line of an event"
Actually the second line which bothers me. I would've wanted some sort of descriptor in the first line.
"Further, where does Beck's overwelming focus on 'reclaiming Civil rights' fall in this thematic schema? Religious or patriotic? Seems political."
Overwhelming focus? You are aware he made one line saying that but definitely did not make that his focus at all. Furthermore the Civil rights movement is definitely seen by Beck as being about religion and honor. Tell me, if you think the Civil Rights movement was about politics, then does that mean you think it was a Democratic movement?
"Also, looking at our previous discussion, I thought we comprimised on attributing the 'theme' to Beck, the creator of the event?"
I thought so to, somebody else changed it. I'd rather though he just re-write as it was as opposed to negating the obvious, that this rally was a religious and patriotic themed event.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your change improved it greatly thanks :) Ntomlin (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problemWikiposter0123 (talk) 22:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

whoa now we've got 4 labels in sentence 2 and 1 in sentence 5...all priority? Ntomlin (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence 5? Are we now talking about sentences outside of the lead? As for the "celebration of Americn heroes" I think it's necessary to say in order to then mention that many troops were honored. Am I missing something?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Attendance sidebar

It is unwise to use the CBS estimate as the correct one in the sidebar, since their estimate differs from many other media outlets. Also, CBS doesn't specify at what time the photo was taken on which they based the estimate, which is important because it could have been taken early or as the crowd was winding down. I am changing the sidebar to "Disputed -- See Crowd size". BS24 (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was taken at noon. However, their estimate only includes people in the mall and not the hundreds of thousands who couldn't fit into the mall and were just outside of it. Only citing the people in the mall is clearly misleading.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Restoring_Honor_rally&oldid=381779096"