Talk:Shusha

Shushi Coat of Arms

The coat of arms on this articel for Shushi should be changed with this one, because that is the new coat of arms of Shushi. ROOB323 03:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

File:Shusha coa.jpg

It is illegal, as NK does not exist de-jure. Grandmaster 17:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Coat of arm or gerb of Shushi has nothing to do with NKR international recognition. If inhabitatnts of Shushi decide that this is going to be their arm of Coat then who are you Grandmaster to decide which coat is legal and which one not. When Azeri inhabitants come back to SHushi they can revert back the coat to previous one. As you always do, sitting and reverting people's notes in discussion page which is none of your business.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY (talk • contribs)

Doesn't matter. We have the flag on the NK page don't we.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This whole part is so strange and weird!

Conflict with Persia

In less than a year after Shusha was founded, the Karabakh khanate was attacked by Muhammed Hassan khan Qajar, one of the major claimants to the Iranian throne. During the Safavid Empire Karabakh was for almost two centuries ruled by the clan of Qajar (of Turkic origin), and therefore, Muhammed Hassan khan considered Karabakh his hereditary estate.<

As far as we know Qajars and Safavids are different dynasties from different time persiods. This inconsistency needs to be checked. Otherwise I am going to remove it.

There's no inconsistency. Read carefully. Karabakh was ruled by Qajars of Ganja during Safavids, until Nadir shah took that territory from them. And when Karabakh khanate emerged, Qajars considered themselves offended, as they considered Karabakh their heriditary land. Grandmaster 07:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

However, user ArmenianNY's point is valid when we consider the fact that, from the first days of founding of the khanate, the Azerbaijani Qajar dynasty, which since the 1790s became the ruling dynasty of Iran, has been unsuccessfully trying to bring Karabakh khanate under its control once again. On two occassions in 18th century they failed, on the third one (1797) only temporarily and partially succeeded, and on the fourth one in 19th century succeeded temporarily before being defeated by Russia. Hence, this statement, along with many others facts, such as the 1805 Kurekchay Treaty and testimony of other Azerbaijani khans, show that Karabakh khanate was independent. This contradicts the statement currently on the page: "of the initially Persian ruled and later semi-independent[3] Karabakh khanate (1748-1822)". The khanate was not ruled by Persia, and could not have been, not only because of who Panah Khan was -- he defeated the Qajars on Iranian territory, i.e,. south of Araxes -- nor was it semi-independent, as such khanates cannot sign treaties on their own behalf with Russian tsar or mint their money. So ArmenianNY is correct that based on this fact about the Qajar feud in the article, we should make the whole article more consistent and reflect the realities of the era, which was that the Karabakh khanate was fiercely independent from 1747 until 1805, and then from 1805 to 1822 was fully dependent on Russian Empire. --AdilBaguirov 19:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

That line was a later addition to the article. Of course Karabakh khanate was independent, otherwise why would Aga Mohammed shah invade his own province? Grandmaster 19:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting -- I wonder who added this mistaken information? It should of course be changed ASAP, to reflect the facts and truthful state of affairs. --AdilBaguirov 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Name

Artaxiad, stop moving the Azerbaijani name. The city was founded as a capital of Azerbaijani khanate and had Azerbaijani population at the start of the conflict. So Azerbaijani name goes first. Grandmaster 18:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

stop political propagand!

Sorry, but some things are not right in your article and you dont give opportunities to other people to improve it. 1. you wrote- "Shusha is a town in Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, next to the rayon of the same name". Maybe yes in de-jure meaning, but never de-facto. Maybe its dont make you happy but de-facto its a center of an Armenian region of a de-facto Nagorno-Karabakh republic so anyone needs permition of NKR authorities to visit that town. If a tourist read your article he can by mistake ask for it to Azerbaijani embassy... 2. When the city was founded in the middle of 18th century (citation needed), it had predominantly Azerbaijani (citation needed) population. Dear author I believe you never was in Shushi of 18th century so pls add some (maybe falsified azerbaijani) references. I know surely these things: in the place of Shushi was a town founded by Armenian Tigran the Great king (called Tigranakert) and also some armenian Khachkars and monuments of miggle ages are founded there. See for example http://www.golos.am/2000/april_2006/18/st03.html or www.karabakh-online.narod.ru So pls dont lay and dont use WIKI for political propagand! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.118.95.4 (talk) 20:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Citation tags

Golbez why were citation tags removed? Vartanm 22:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

They were manual [[citation needed]] tags instead of proper ones. --Golbez 23:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw that, I just wanted to know if there was another reason. Didn't want to add them back without clarifying first. Vartanm 23:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Those tags are absolutely irrelevant. If you read the article, you'll find detailed statistics on population at various times in the history. So please remove them and read the article further down the intro. Grandmaster 05:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The other reason was the commentary added by the IP. --Golbez 11:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not search and find whats being asked for? [1] I'm leaving it to you to decide if its reliable. Vartanm 06:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not a reliable thrid party source, it is a propaganda website. Grandmaster 06:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on, Vartanm has a very good point there. And Grandmaster, here too like all the other articles, we have a clear example of who starts and end edit warring. "Shusha within the Russian Empire" Is an entire section with one thing. The said resettlement of the Armenian population. Had this been the other way around you would have revert warred until being able to remove it just like you did remove quotations from Nakhichevan article about the resettlement of Tartars until changing the demography of the region. More notable than your source about the 1 million out of 1.3 million. I have attempted two interloaning to get that work, two times without results when it was a success for a work dating in 1894. The same single non notable author having written in 1911 placed in every given occasion, while the official Russian records of Armenian resettlements are totally excluded. Would you have ever allowed Nakhichevan having such a section when there are various works on ISI, Jstor and various databases and not a single work in those same databases for this entire section which you like to support so much? That you place so much weight on a single not notable author which has so much of a limited numbers of copy that a notable two major institution placed on the interloaning have attempted to locate it weren't even able to find it. Also, still after three attempt and requesting your answer about AdilBaguirov edit on NK which you reverted yourself to his version when in the past has been discussed various times, you have totally remained silent speak much of it. I'm pretty much confident you would have revert warred until getting an article locked had I introduced something such by attepting to pass a figure for what it is not. But guess what, you and I know that they are not accurate, but for the sake of the integrity of the article (NK) I refrained reverting. Fad (ix) 06:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't really understand what you are talking about, and you are again taking the issues to personal level. This user requested info on population of Shusha at the time of foundation being predominantly Azeri. It is in the article. Shusha had predominant Azeri population until tsarist Russia started resettlement of Armenians to the region. Check the quotes and see for yourself. Both Russian statistic info and English traveller Keppel attest to that. So the tags should be removed. Grandmaster 06:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of the sources have actually nothing to do with Shushi, Shushi was an exception. There are quotes there which have nothing to do with it. An entire section under the banner of Russian rule is "stravestided" to be about the said Armenian resettlment. The 1 million out of 1.3 million has absolutly no place here on wikipedia. That source is nor notable nor supported by any single Russian records. The work can not be traced by inter loaning system, a Russian friend has attempted to find it too to not avail even from Moscow. You have requested the deletion from NK history of the claim about the Meliks a source from a modern notable author, who's work could be found on most major libraries here in Quebec but throw a non notable author who wrote a non notable work which has been published in a so limited edition, that the work is not accessible by instituional interloaning systems. 13 years following the 1823, an excess of Tartars of 19,271 families, and for the Armenians of 14,634. Those are from the official Russian records. Where are the Armenian resettlements in Karabakh? Shushi was an exception, the phenomen was not due to any resetlement policy but rather to a volontary movement of the Armenians from villages to cities, which was done in a more massive way in the case of the Armenians than Tartars. Fad (ix) 04:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

How would you feel if I called this [2] a propaganda website. "History of terrorism dates back to the 1st century A.D., when the organization of zealots-sikaris began to function in Judea." Jews started the terrorism. Blame Jews for everything. Thats propaganda coming from Azerbaijan's foreign ministry. I mean how could you even take anything serious after reading that? Vartanm 07:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If you noted, I never use any Azerbaijani websites to support my edits. Azerbaijani and Armenian sources are biased and engaged in a propaganda war. Therefore we should use neutral sources, as required by the rules. Grandmaster 07:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, before you groundlessly accuse and try to incite ethnic animosity, study history, as even the US State Department and Encarta (need I say more?) are in agreement with the Azerbaijan MFA author, not to mention many books on the subject by Jewish authors: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] and [8]. --AdilBaguirov 00:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't play this with me again, you know of what I am talking about, and specifically. The entire section about Russian rule is nothing more than a disguised section about Armenian resettlement. Shavrov work is nowhere to be found on the two interloaning orders I have placed while I even were able to retrace 1890s works, even one vanity. And the title of Shavrov work speaks volume of the content. As it would not be the first time that Armenians were accused of "stealing" other people job everywhere they go, it isn't much harder to guess what was the purpose of such a claim at all. I have also asked a Russian friend to retrace the work for me to not avail. You have removed similar quotes, which were contained in reputable books or papers much more reputable and cited elsewhere such as they were cited on the ISI, or even found on Jstor and unlike this bogus 1 million figure were republicated in various other works. You haven't even permitted few lines about the much more cited referenced and reputable event, but yet an entire section is allowed about an event, which neither Jstor covers neither is there a work covering it listed on ISI or other databases. And days have passed for a long time I have requested you to comment about AdilBaguirov additions on NK, which you know he has fabricated the sense. But you have never reverted him and even reverted to his version which you knew and know is not true. Shusha is such an example of the sort of article which shows that it is not Eupator, TigranTheGreat, me nor the other editors which you consider your opponents who starts the trouble. As you know that there are documented Tartaro/Azeri resettlements for centuries, some I have already quoted(and you have reverted) and that we both know that if anywhere it were to be added it would have generated an edit war, which the result would have been its removal. Oh and Shusha, yeh, Tartars were a majority, it was an exception, no Armenians have ever denied that. Fad (ix) 15:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fad, stop your constant barrage of senseless attacks and grounless claims. Be constructive and friendly. My NK additions are the only fair and right way to show the population dynamics in Karabakh, by using all available census and population data in the West. Meanwhile, privided a link to the Shusha 1989 census data, which testifies about the 92% Azerbaijani majority in that city. Even though the article is written by an Azerbaijani (but published by Harvard), it balances out the citation of Richard Hovanissian, an Armenian, that someone inserted towards the end of the article. --AdilBaguirov 20:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed your addition to NK article because, I'll say it again Karabakh is different than Nagorno-Karabakh. And for the majority I don't deny that Azeris had majority in Shusha. You just need to find a neutral source. Just like I didn't add the Armenian source that supported Shushas establishment in 1750's Vartanm 21:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually the question was not addressed to you, since you don't know the subject very well and didn't participate in the discussions at all. Of course the censuses are relevant to NK -- it's the case not only with the Hovanissian's 1917-1919 statistics, which he points out is specifically about NK, but 1897 and others, considering that the unreliable 2001 "census" is used, not to mention the 1923 figures (which, as Russian ethnographer Yamskov testifies to, undercounted Azerbaijanis). So removing the table, whose stats are all reputable and verifiable, is not right. Meanwhile, once more, since as Armenians themselves often point out, ethnic Armenians of Karabakh were mostly living and settling into Mountaneous parts of the former khanate, then all the figures showing their population in Karabakh is pertinent mostly and specifically to NK. That's what Prof. Cornell points out too on the same page of his book as cited in the table: "...nevertheless certain that the overall increase in Armenian population was due to an increasing migration of Armenians to Mountainous Karabakh or an exodus of Muslims from the region." Therefore, again, removing that information is against the Wikipedia rules.

This is a discussion page, and open for everybody. Secondly who are you to tell me if I know a subject well or not at all? This is the second time you insulted me. If you cant stay civil than maybe you should read some of the Wikipedia rules. Vartanm 01:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the citation of Amirbayov article from Harvard University is fine as long as there is a Hovanissian citation in the article. You can't have an ethnic Armenian author cited there for some time now, yet complain about an ethnic Azerbaijani one. If Hovanisian is removed, then certainly Amirbayov should be removed -- and I will easily find replacement, perhaps even going as far as scanning the actual 1989 census page or getting it from CD-ROM next time I get an opportunity to get it. Again, double-standards are not acceptable -- either both are removed, or both remain. That's fair. --AdilBaguirov 23:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No they are not relevent, and stop claiming others are ignorant. I have covered all of this. First they are the figures of 1921 not 1923, they were printed in 1923. We've been there but you still haven't corrected this yet. Cornel say: This information is only of limited use, as the census included the entire Karabakh Khanate, that is including lower Karabakh. Hence the figures for Mountainous Karabakh remain unknown;… p.68 The official records show, The 13 years following the 1823, an excess of Tartars of 19,271 families, and for the Armenians of 14,634. I have all discussed this in detail. But you don't want to even listen. Fad (ix) 01:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Fadix, what are you actually disputing here? The figures for the whole of Karabakh are relevant here, because Shusha was the capital of Karabakh khanate. And we can find official census figures from non-Azerbaijani source, however third-party sources say the same. Azerbaijanis were 90% of population of Shusha at the beginning of the conflict:

Yet Nagorny Karabakh was not only an Armenian region. Roughly a quarter of the population – some forty thousand people – were Azerbaijanis with the strongest ties to Azerbaijan. This sudden upsurge of protest in the mainly Armenian town of Stepanakert, however peaceful its outer form, could not but antagonize them. You had only to tilt your head in Stepanakert to see the neighboring town of Shusha – 90 percent of whose inhabitants were Azerbaijani – high on the cliff top above.

Thomas De Waal, Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War. NYU Press, 2004, ISBN 0-8147-1945-7

Grandmaster 05:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Read what I have said carefully another time. This is actualy not what I have said. What I have said was that the official records are as follow for Karabakh. The 13 years following the 1823, an excess of Tartars of 19,271 families, and for the Armenians of 14,634. There are no records of any resetlment policy for Karabakh, for anything, there has been more Tartar population increase and this from Russian official records than Armenians. I have all discussed that. There was no resettlement for Karabakh. I have repeated this and have also provided official records. I also said that the quote on 1 million out of 1.3 million does not fit in any articles here on Wikipedia. And I have plainly explained why above. The entire section is about an Armenian resettlement while it is supposed to be about Russian rules. I do not dispute anything about Shushi or Shusha call it what you want. But Shushi is Shushi, and the Armenian increase of population there has nothing to do with population resettlement, it was a city, Armenians have left villages for cities, this happened not only there but elsewhere, including the Ottoman empire, many Armenians even left for Europe and America during that time. The section is thosefor is original research. Fad (ix) 15:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

How is this original research, if it is sourced info:

This limited population may be ascribed to frequent wars which have long desolated the province, and to the emigration to Persia of many Mohammedan families since its subjection to Russia, although many Armenians were induced by the Russian government, after the peace of Toorkmachay, to emigrate forms Persia to Karabagh.

The Penny Cyclopædia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge, 1843

Grandmaster 17:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It is about time you understand what NPOV mean, I have carefuly tried to explain this to you, 1, 2, 3, 4, no over. Providing a source does not justify presenting a position as fact. The official Russian records are the following. The 13 years following the 1823, an excess of Tartars of 19,271 families, and for the Armenians of 14,634. Those are the official Russian records. The records also state that there is no place in Karabakh for Armenian resettlement, the Armenians who were resettled were redirected elsewhere. The Muslim population of Shushi in fact decreased a little bit, but reincreased later. The absolute figures and excess population for Karabakh point to more Muslim immigration within Karabakh than Armenian. Your position is a fringe, a fringe, it does not justify covering a fringe position in an entire section and when it is contradicted by official records. I have enough source from notable publications to start an entire long article on the settlement of Tartar populations and eviction of Armenians for a very long period of time, yet you have deleted quotes and found few lines about it worth deleting from Nakhichevan. Also, Penny Cyclopædia does not mean anything at all we don't know of which resettlement it is talking about, as the only recorded significant Armenian immigration in Karabakh was those Armenians who returned under Russian rules, those same who escaped Ebrahim Khan opressions. Also, Shavrov N.I. is not notable at all to even be considered here or anywhere else. You haven't still addressed my criticism. The title of the work alone speak volume of its credibility. The German in WWI have printed various such pamphlets on the Armenians having "stolen" every jobs within the Ottoman Empire and who would immigrate everwhere like like rotten worms will eat what is of worth. General Bronsart had this to say about the Armenians: "Namely, the Armenian is just like the Jew, a parasite outside the confines of his homeland, sucking off the marrow of the people of the host country. Year after year, they abandon their native land like the Polish Jews who migrate to Germany to engage in usurious activities. Hence the hatred which, in a medieval form, has unleashed itself against them as an unpleasant people, entailing their murder." At the beginning of the 20th century this sort of allegations have found echo in the Russian Empire too, in which the Russians would stire Tartars to spark a conflict and "control" the Armenian alleged "threat" (purely commercial). Let give a try, why don't you quote the entire paragraph from where that quote comes from? Afteral you wanted the deletion of Walker, who is notable, but replicate this author in every given article. Fad (ix) 22:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I cite my sources, and they clearly say that Armenians were settled in Karabakh. Second, you cite no sources whatsoever. Third, Shavrov is notable as a source of info, he was a Russian official, known for his chauvinist views. He was opposing to settlement of people other than Russian in the Caucasus and claimed that Muslim population should have been replaced by Russian people. Nowadays his views are of no interest, but the statistics he provided are, since he was a person well familiar with the situation due to his position. Grandmaster 17:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

No, unless Ebrahim Khan opression is indicated, this is simply POV pushing. And no, there is no official records about resettlement in Karabakh, the official records clearly show more absolute Tartar population increase. As for Shavrov, you have just confirmed what I have been saying and discredited to source yourself. I am waiting you to translate the entire paragraph where this figure is provided. Thanks. Fad (ix) 21:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am still waiting Grandmaster. Fad (ix) 16:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph is way too large to translate, maybe you can use some online translators:

Конечно, колонистам были отведены лучшие земли казны и даны различные льготы. Затем с 1828 по 1830 год мы переселили в Закавказье свыше 40.000 персидских и 84.600 турецких армян и водворили их на лучшие казенные земли Елизаветпольской и Эриванской губерний, где армянское население было ничтожно, и в Тифлисском, Борчалинском, Ахалцихском и Ахалкалакском уездах. Для поселения им было отведено более 200.000 десятин казенных земель и куплено более чем на 2 млн. рублей частновладельческих земель у мусульман: Нагорная часть Елизаветпольской губернии и берега озера Гокчи заселены этими армянами. Необходимо иметь в виду, что из 124.000 армян, официально переселенных, переселились сюда и множество неофициальных, так что общее число переселившихся армян значительно превышает 200.000 человек. После Крымской кампании опять вселяется некоторое число армян, в точности не зарегистрированное. Период с 1864 по 1876 г. ознаменовывается нашей усиленной деятельностью по заселению Черноморского побережья армянами и греками, привозившимися на казенный счет из Малой Азии, а затем эстами, латышами, чехами. Новоселам отводились лучшие казенные земли. Счастливо окончившаяся турецкая война 1877-1879 гг. одарила нас целым потоком малоазиатских новоселов: в Карсскую область вселено около 50 тыс. армян и около 40 тыс. греков, и сразу пустовавшая область получает довольно многочисленное инородческое население. Кроме того, генерал Тер-Гукасов выводит в Сурмалинский уезд 35 тыс. кибиток турецких армян, которые остаются у нас. После этого начинается непрерывный поток армян из Малой Азии, переселяющихся сюда семьями и отдельными лицами.

Grandmaster 08:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, the article in Britannica also supports the info on setlement of Armenian population in Karabakh after the Russian conquest:

The Russian campaigns against the Persians and the Turks in the 18th and 19th centuries resulted in large emigrations of Armenians under Muslim rule to the Transcaucasian provinces of the Russian Empire and to Russia itself. Armenians settled in Yerevan, T'bilisi, Karabakh, Shemakha (now Samaxi), Astrakhan, and Bessarabia. At the time of the massacres in Turkish Armenia in 1915, some Armenians found asylum in Russia. A number settled in the enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh within the neighbouring Muslim country of Azerbaijan. Armenians now constitute about three-fourths of the population of Nagorno-Karabakh; since 1988 there have been violent interethnic disputes and sporadic warfare between Armenians and Azerbaijanis in and around the enclave. [9] Grandmaster 08:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the quote in that paragraph, you must have given me the wrong one. As for Britannica, NK during the massacres. Fad (ix) 16:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, I am waiting the paragraph which contain that quote. Fad (ix) 16:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The full context can be found here: [10] Grandmaster 14:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

In addition to Amirbayov's more detailed quote, Tom de Waal says the same about 90% Azerbaijani Shusha, per Grandmaster's above quote: "Yet Nagorny Karabakh was not only an Armenian region. Roughly a quarter of the population – some forty thousand people – were Azerbaijanis with the strongest ties to Azerbaijan. This sudden upsurge of protest in the mainly Armenian town of Stepanakert, however peaceful its outer form, could not but antagonize them. You had only to tilt your head in Stepanakert to see the neighboring town of Shusha – 90 percent of whose inhabitants were Azerbaijani – high on the cliff top above." Thomas De Waal, Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War. NYU Press, 2004, ISBN 0-8147-1945-7 --AdilBaguirov 02:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Turkic (Armenian) History of Shushi Should Be Included

The article completely disregards 1000 years of Shushi as a major Armenian fortress and populated bastion (Syghnakh - Սղնախ). It belonged to Melik Shahnazarians of Varanda, and – as depicted in details in Mirza Jamal Qarabaghi’s book on Karabakհ Khanate – was delivered to Panakh Khan as a token of bilateral political alliance. Before that - when the Turkic nomads ("Azerbaijanis") had not entered the Armenian-controlled highlands of Karabakh - Shushi played a significant role in Armenian resistance to Ottoman occupation during the Turkish-Persian conflict of the 1720s. This should be included in the history of the city. Shushi was a pivotal part of the so-called Lesser Syghnakh that defended the southern part of the five united Armenian principalities of Karabakh (Hamsai Melikutiunner). There is an extensive set of West European primary sources on the subject. Zurbagan 03:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Mirza Jamal states that Shusha was built in an empty space. According to him, there was nothing there before the city was built. And I restored a quote deleted by anon. Grandmaster 13:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Agree with GM. What 1000 years are you talking about? Plus, who are these anons, does anyone know? --Ulvi I. 10:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

there are a lot of anons and new users taking out content en masse. I placed back all the content that has been there for months and was due to extensive deliberations. --adil 06:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed recent edits by anon accounts. No reliable sources were cited in support of the claims made. Grandmaster 07:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Panahabad

Sources for the name of Panahabad:

Abbas-gulu Aga Bakikhanov. Golestan-i Iram

Great Soviet Encyclopedia. Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast.

Please update the article with those links. Grandmaster 12:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Per above two references, the article was correct, and the name Panahabad should not have been removed by new user Shaloun (whose name is translated as "Joker"). --adil 14:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the great soviet encyclopedia. Read the articles about USA, Germany, Austria, Japan: do you aggree with all that you read? I don't think. Although it has some percentage of objectivity, it is not 100 % reliable, because it was a source of soviet propaganda. Meanwhile, it is interesting, what is the source of GSE? I'm sure, the souce is your other link - Abbas-Kulz-Agha Bakikhanov. I have read it - Gyulista-i Iram. This writing is dated one century after the foundation of Shusha, and is mentioning about Panahabad only once, but not as the initial name. Furthermore, in the writing of Mirza Djamal Djavanshiri Karabagi, the personal vesir of the son of Panah-khan, a contemporary of the founding of Shusha, the name Panahabad has never been mentioned. The link for the russian translation is here. http://zerrspiegel.orientphil.uni-halle.de/t1154.html I am sure, that the evidences of a contemporary are much more heavier than the subjective oppinion of GSE and a hundred-year-later written Gyulistan-i Iram. Please be first objective, and than Azerbaijani, and remove the name Panahabad as the "initial name of the town". Or you can bring me more evidences. In case of convincing ones I capitulate, I promiss. I am not a stubborn one. Respect --shaloun -- PS: my nick is 9 years old, and I have also forgotten, what does it mean, thank you for reminding.

GSE is biased when it came to certain issues, but I see but I see no reason for bias with regard to the name of Shusha at the time of foundation by this source, whose second editor in chief was the son of Stepan Shaumian. Grandmaster 06:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, Mirza Jamal does not say that the town was not called Panahabad at the time of foundation, he simply says nothing about it. However the fact can be establshed thru other sources. Grandmaster 06:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, Bakhikhanov’s book was written in 1841, and Mirza Jamal’s book was written in 1847. They both wrote their historical accounts at the request of the Russian authorities about the same time, and I don't think that such a knowledgeable person as Bakikhanov was not familiar with the facts. Grandmaster 06:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Another source, which hopefully will put an end to this dispute. Please see the article about Ibrahim Khan Javanshir by the Armenian scholar George A. Bournoutian, which is not a neutral or pro-Azerbaijani source:

In the second half of the century, Panah Khan built a strong fortress in Shushi/Shusha, which was referred to, during his lifetime, as Panahabad (idem, p. 72). [11]

There’s a typo in the online version, as it says Ebrahim instead of Panah in the above sentence, but I think it is simply an error by the person who did the typing. The town was founded by Panah, of course. Grandmaster 07:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it was not convincing (for me). The second or seventh editor in chief of GSE is not too important: the GSE is for me a major tool of soviet propaganda. More, if based on GSE, many articles in Wikipedia should be re-edited with major changes. But that is not our theme. Mirza Jamal is still the most important sounce for me in this topic, because he was in the heart of the happenings, and he knew the person, who at your account, has renamed the town. Mirza Jamal could not run off such an important fact of rename of the town, when he is mentioning very many other, less important facts (channels from Araks, the water supply at the place of the future fortress, etc.). Bournoutian: again and again I say, that the silence of the contemporary, who knew the region and the time better, than anyone else, must be much more important than the words of others, for an online Encyclopedia. It is not too important, if Shusha wear the name Panahabad in the first 8-10 years of its history. My headache is that Wikipedia is bringing not reliable sources, avoiding really reliables. Respects. -- shaloun

If you look at Bournatian’s article, he refers to the same Bakikhanov and Qarabagi, i.e. Mirza Jamal. The online version of Mirza Jamal Qarabagi’s “Karabakh-nameh” is shortened for publication in a magazine, however Bournatian refers to Qarabagi (p 72) as a source for Panahabad, i.e. the full version of "Karabakh-nameh". I provided many different sources to support the info about Panahabad, so I consider this issue to be settled. Grandmaster 10:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

You provided not reliable sources, avoiding really reliables. The statement not proved. Discussion closed. Respects. -- shaloun

sorry dude, but just coming in and saying "not reliable sources, discussion closed", after being presented with 1) two primary sources, Mirza Jamal and Bakikhanov, and 2) two encyclopedia's (GSE and Iranica), is too commissar-like and hardly reasonable. Panakhabad is also mentioned in the letter of the Azerbaijan SSR leader to Moscow in 1945, by the way, but what is better, are the coins minted in Karabakh, and specifically, in Panahabad at the time: [12] Panahabad was a historic fact, and since it is verifiable, and it is from authoritative and reliable sources, it stays. --adil 15:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Adil, have you read the "presented sources" - Mirza Jamal and Bakikhanov? Read them, although there is only one word in two works about Panahabad. Its enough, I have already said what is to say. Read my posts. All the best. -- shaloun.

We also said what we had to say and presented tons of info from various sources. Please read above. Grandmaster 05:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Shoushi

The giant sign entering the town says Shoushi. I'm not registered. Can somebody make that spelling redirect here please?

Done. --Golbez 06:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Undo

I did undo because the city in Armenian was removed, but all the other languages were left. ROOB323 19:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted Artaxiad's edit, which he marked as "clean-up", but in fact undid all my recent edits to this article. I also reverted his vandalism of some user pages. Grandmaster 15:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Tourist and historic sites/Prominent people

Grandmaster do you a have any sources or proof that this sites survived the NK war? Vartanm 03:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Parishan do you have any sources confirming that these people were from Shusha? VartanM 06:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Just look in the respective articles, next to their dates of birth. Parishan 06:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. There are detailed articles about most of them. Grandmaster 06:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, will do. How about tourist and historic sites? How do we know that the buildings have survived the war? VartanM 07:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't. We only know that all those historical monuments existed before the war. Grandmaster 07:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I just went thru the list, most of them don't site sources and some of the people are not even from Shusha. VartanM 07:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Raise the issue with particular articles. The only one who was not born in Shusha is general Mehmandarov. His parents were from Shusha, but he was born in Lenkaran, where his father worked in Russian customs. Grandmaster 07:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Molla Panah Vagif - born in 1717 in the village of Salahly in the Qazakh district of north-western Azerbaijan,

Uzeyir Hajibeyov - born on September 18, 1885 in Agjabadi near Shusha. Agjabadi is closer to Martuni

Samedbey Mehmandarov - born on October 16, 1855 in Lankaran. I wonder what people from Lankaran think about him being on this list.

Bulbul - born in 1897 in the village of Khanbagi, near Shusha. I live near the Pacific ocean. Also the article is in violation of copyright --VartanM 02:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

All those people (except for Mehmandarov) grew up or lived in Shusha. For example, Vagif, who was vezir of khan of Karabakh, spent in Shusha most of his life and was killed there. I'm not sure whether Mehmandarov should be in the list, as he did not live in the city for long, but he was Shushavian by origin too. So were Rashid Behbudov and Fikret Amirov, who were born in Tbilisi and Ganja, but their parents moved to those cities from Shusha. But other than Mehmandarov, all other people were the residents of the town. Grandmaster 05:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the tag from Prominent people section, because it does not need references. References are respective wiki articles. Grandmaster 10:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Roofless Buildings?

Google Earth images show numerous buildings in Shusha appear to be without roofs. Can anyone who is familiar with Shusha comment on this? Beefcalf 22:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Good question; I'm looking at it now and I see what you're talking about. Perhaps they're ruins from the war? The population of Shusha now is 1/10 what it used to be, so they don't need most of those buildings. --Golbez 22:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to thank you for suggesting I look at Shusha on Google Earth, as I had never taken a look at it; the geography of the region is amazing. That is a perfect location for a fort city. --Golbez 22:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some pictures I found on Picasa(all the way in the bottom) [[13]] VartanM 00:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted unsourced additions by anon. Grandmaster 12:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted another anon. Please discuss the changes first. Grandmaster 08:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the edit that changed the name of the town from standard spelling. Grandmaster 05:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

anon

I am reverting anon user who does not explain the rationale behind his edit.--Dacy69 14:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Admin should pay attention to this article. Anon removes improtant imformation--Dacy69 18:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

List of names

I moved the list of names to List of Azerbaijanis from Nagorno-Karabakh. suggestions? criticism? VartanM 18:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I added back the image of Azeri girl from Shusha, as the title of the page suggests, it's relevant here. I don't see why a simple picture of Azeri girl from Shusha is causing revert warring and disruptive reactions from User:MarshallBagramyan. Or perhaps, the attempt is to prove further that no Azeri soul resided in this city built by Azeri Panah-khan? Atabek 08:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, your accusation that MarshallBagramyan is racist against Azeris is an Assumption of Bad Faith. No one can dispute the fact that Shoushi was an important Azeri town and many of the prominent Azeris were from Shousha. Now can you please tell us what does this picture add to the article. --VartanM 16:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see the relevance of it on the page. I'm growing sick and tired of your revolting accusations that I hold some racist grudge against Azeris in your attempts to stir up another nationalist/ethnic war; you level a charge like that on me again, and I'm reporting you straight to the ArbCom for failing to uphold civility on this website.--Marshal Bagramyan 18:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the picture is relevant, because the girl from Shusha is in authentic national dressing. Besides that it also reflects the cultural heritage of Shusha in the 19th century. As for your accusations, go ahead report me, I am not the one removing images of Azeri girl from Karabakh here or pictures and videos of maimed Azeri children from Khojaly Massacre, it's yourself and VartanM doing and advocating that. Assume good faith. Atabek 22:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Authentic national dressing? If that is the reasoning of the argument, your "logic" would also justify adding pictures of Azeris from Baku, or Ganje, or anywhere else from the region where Azeris lived on to this article. It doesn't reflect anything about the town of Shushi in the 19th century. If this is how Azeri girls dressed in the nineteenth century, then the picture isn't exceptional at all; if this is how Azeri girls from Shushi exclusively dressed (which would require a credible citation to say the least) then that's a different story, otherwise, a picture of an Armenian from Shushi would be almost equally as useless because nothing is being said about the town.--Marshal Bagramyan 23:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

I restored the de jure coat of arms of Shusha back to where it should be. As current status of Shusha, occupied by unrecognized NK separatists, is not de-jure recognized, the de-jure coat of arms should be on the top. Atabek 11:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan, pls. discuss your edit here before removal of legitimate info. I restore info as well.--Dacy69 18:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)