Talk:Srebrenica massacre

Archives
Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 20:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Archives: Discussions from 2004 The Drina Corps US resolution January – July 2005 August – December 2005 January – July 2006 August 2006 September 2006 October & November 2006 December 2006 January 2007

KarlXII/Osli73 - identity crisis resolved

I removed all text in this section. This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Srebrenica massacre article (see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines). It is not the place to discuss the behaviour of other editors. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 01:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Jitse, deleting Opbeith's comments borders on censorship. Let him speak. There is tons of genocide denial garbage on these discussion pages that were never bothered to be deleted. I know you are trying to be objective and fair, but please understand that double standard has been exercised for too long on this politicized topic. Suddenly we see urge to call genocide deniers "critics" and people with "alternative views", etc. Why don't you go ahead and call Holocause deniers "critics" and people with "alternative views"? Go ahead, test it at Holocaust and Holocaust Denial pages. It's simply not going to happen. If you question facts (whether it's the fact that holocaust happened, or the fact that Srebrenica genocide happened) you are not only questioning - you are denying them. Why? Because during the process of questioning, these deniers also seek theories that will support their conclussions! They are not interested in objective analysys of events, as it has been evident for a long time on these discussion pages. Opbeith tried too many times to reasonably explain people many facts behind the genocide in Srebrenica; he has been careful enough to place things into proper perspective, avoiding taking any sides. He is extremely objective and reasonable individual and he is one of those people who thinks thoroughly before he answers anything. He is very sensitive about facts of the case and his valuable opinion should be preserved, and not deleted. If people are going to question that one plus one equals two, then they are denying fact of the equation. We do our best to reason with unreasonable, but so many times world depends on unreasonable individuals who simply refuse to think and continue their ways of genocide/holocaust, small and large scale massacre denials. To get back to the topic, I am contributing this document from the United States Congressional hearing on Srebrenica genocide. Please read it carefully http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa49268.000/hfa49268_0f.htm . Bosniak 08:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to act kindof mediator here; maybe it's mea culpa for the first deletion of personal exchanges, but things are heating up again. So, let me express several opinions and/or facts, in no particular order:

• WP:TALK states, among other things, "Keep on topic", "No personal attacks", and "Never post personal details", with the proviso "Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal". I am not accusing you, Opbeith, of incivility, but you did post analysis of your opponents' views and personal background on several occasions. While those weren't grossly off topic, I deem their removal by Jitse as [borderline] justified.
• The section "too few opinions" is archived indeed:: Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 11#Too few opinions by Laughing Man. I don't quite approve this act, as it had some things relevant to the article, but it also had some nasty hints at "yet another onslaught by the revisionist concert party", and the tag is not in the article anymore so the issue is moot anyway.
• To me, it was more or less clear from the start that KarlXII is Osli73 (which doesn't necessarily mean it was clear for all). He ultimately confirmed that himself, and admitted it was an error; KarlXII account is now blocked. End of story, please. He did employ some questionnable tactics (talk-much-then-edit-quickly) in the past, for which he has warned by the ArbCom. However, I didn't see that repeated recently.
• I also knew that Hadžija was Estavisti. Since he's gone, it hardly matters now.
• For the record, User:Evv has requested username change to User:Ev. He's not very active in this article (but he is in related ones); just that anyone doesn't get surprised again.
• I kind of understand your frustration, but, trust me, the recent exchange of low kicks here is far milder than many edit wars I've seen. I don't want to be sound cynical, but get a skin. Apart from some questionnable (but not entirely inappropriate) removal of talk page comments, I don't think anyone has insulted you or Fairview personally.
• In sum, while the events at this talk page weren't exactly the model behavior, they were well within acceptable limits (with the exception of User:Bosniak, who is likely on his way to be banned from this and related articles). I sympathize with his strong feelings about the matter, but see WP:TIGER.
• We're dealing with a sensitive topic here, obviously. But the article seems to have reached a relative stability and the remaining question is how much of "alternative views" have enough due weight to be included in the article. But the spirale of assuming bad faith won't lead us to the solution.

Duja► 08:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, I know I'm verbose, so feel free to delete this after reading it (I'll delete it anyway after it's had a brief run). I'm not concerned for my own right of expression. What I am concerned about is the outcome of discussions on this page.

Let us be clear. The Secretary General of the United Nations pointed out that what followed the fall of Srebrenica was a tragedy that was shocking in its magnitude - not since the horrors of the Second World War had Europe witnessed massacres on this scale. What we are constantly arguing about at the Srebrrenica Massacre discussion page is exchanges in which that reality, its scale or its motivation are denied.

You talk about Bosniak being banned for breaking the rules of Wikipedia when he fights to defend the facts that substantiate that reality while you, Jitse and Laughing Man condone the use of multiple identities to challenge facts established in many authoritative sources.

Your original deletion removed an exchange which centred on Bosniak challenging the actions and views of individuals whose behaviour appeared to bear out his accusation of their partisan motives. [1].

"I am keeping my head cool, but it's ridicolous to explain things to "those" people over and over again. They simply don't listen, just like their leaders refused to listen. Their target has stayed the same - destruction of this article, just as was their target to destroy muslims of Bosnia during early 1990s." That's a sweeping condemnation but looking at the reality of what goes on here I don't see it as being too far off beam. The fact and details of genocide are repeatedly denied here. When those who engage in that process of denial are challenged they change their names and come back again.

Duja, I accept that you and Jitse have made your interventions in the interest of promoting harmonious discussion. Even though I felt there was a degree of misrepresentation in your initial deletion I accepted that your action wasn't unreasonable in terms of its effect. I'm willing to compromise in the interests of ensuring a reasonable forum for discussion on this page.

What I'm not willing to do is to negotiate the facts of atrocity. When I have raised the issue of other people's views (not their personal background as you claim - simply their views, expressed openly here or elsewhere) it has been with the intention of establishing the reality behind their interventions here after that reality has been denied or dissimulated.

Just go back and look at the sequence of events that led to my exchange with the name-switching individual with the blog (whose personal identity I did not compromise - I couldn't, I don't even know it - even though he made accusations against me and identified me). Go back and look at the identity changes evident here and judge for yourself what sort of pattern emerges.

It's disingenuous to pretend that there's no history here and unwarranted to describe the situation here as stable. Periods of intermittent quiet rarely last. The substance of the article is not yet agreed. There are points where a more specific wording would be justified. I, and I'm sure others too, hold back from making those changes because I have a limited amount of energy available to defend those changes from the inevitable reversions.

Your reference to the TIGER page is quite inappropriate. The analogy comparing Wikipedia to a natural history museum safeguarding a collection of type specimens was obviously made by someone with little understanding of the sociology of knowledge or the role of information in the world.

The reference there to Simon Wessely is instructive. Here is a very powerful man who has sought to establish his authority over a field of knowledge. His victims' efforts to challenge his authority are not always as measured as dispassionate third parties might like. So their personal experience is denied because it is inappropriately expressed. The powerless driven to despair are rendered even more powerless when the rational but unengaged administer the rules of civilised conduct in a way that protects those who know how to exploit them.

You're quite right no-one has insulted myself or Fairview360 personally. I don't think either of us cares a fig about personal comments made about us, I think we both have a sense of proportion regarding the relevant significance of our personal sensitivities and the enormity of the subject at issue.

I think you've simply missed the point. Both Fairview360 and I are angry at the way facts are disregarded and the truth is distorted. We both started out with a "skin" of reasonableness and a willingness to engage in discussion.

I watched Fairview360 have his skin abraded away by the wilful unreasonableness and deceit of those with whom he engaged. Now I've experienced the same sapping of my reserves of tolerance. But I'm certainly not going to "get a skin" in order to live with duplicity and accept moral equivalency.

--Opbeith 19:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Things have stabilized here. But it's probably just a matter of time before someone comes and starts posting questions that were already discussed probably over 1,000 times so far (e.g. Lewis Mackenzie, Diana Johnstone, Oric attack on Serb village of Kravica in which 11 civilians died, challenging numbers of dead, challenging UN conclussions, challenging numbers of missing, etc). Wikipedia admins did nothing to stop obvious unreasonablesness with members who kept pushing their revisionist points even when they were presented with ICTY judgments. I mean, it's laughable to call obvious genocide deniers with such polite names as "critics" or "alternative views". Come on. What Opbeith stood for is calling people their proper names. I have no problem with people questioning what happened in Srebrenica. Me and Opbeight have questioned Srebrenica events for many months, but instead of looking for answers that would support our conclussion, we looked for answers that were supported by ICTY judgements, UN Conclusions, Congressional Hearings, Human Rights Reports etc. There are generally two types of genocide deniers, (1) those who reference other revisionists to justify their conclussions, and (2) those who reference factual findings (e.g. ICTY judgements) by taking carefully selected judicial findings and placing them out of context to gain credibility. For example, there was a case when someone holding revisionist views abused ICTY findings by cutting and pasting one sentence out of context which stated that Naser Oric attacked Serb villages. The point of this abuse was to prove that Serbs were victims of Oric attacks and that Serbs somehow needed to revenge for those attacks. Of course, nobody mentioned that long before Oric attacked and killed 35 soldiers and 11 Serb civilians in Kravice village, Serb forces massacred hundreds of Bosniaks in other villages around Srebrenica, Foca, Bratunac, Zvornik, etc. And of course, nobody failed to study judgements long enough to bring a point that these Serb villages were in fact military bases. But Opbeith was there to point out:

In the proceedings against Naser Oric when the ICTY examined the attacks by Bosnian Muslim units under his control on various villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica it found that although there was no justification for the wanton destruction that took place in these villages, there was evidence in many cases of militarisation, military presence and provocative military action. In various villages referred to in the proceedings village guards received at least some military support. At the time of the attack on Ratkovic'i, Gornji Ratkovic'i and Duc(ic'i, a number of Bosnian Serb village guards were present. Although there was conflicting evidence the more convincing evidence suggested that at least some of those village guards underwent special military training and were relatively well-armed. The Trial Chamber did not exclude a military justification for the attacks on the villages.

In Bjelovac and Sikiric village guards received weapons and ammunition from the Bratunac Brigade of the VRS, and there was a Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area. Weapons and ammunition were stored in Bjelovac, and positioned in between houses in Ložnicka Rijeka and Kunjerac. The school building of Bjelovac was used as a kitchen to feed passing Bosnian Serb fighters.

With particular reference to the attack on the villages of Kravica, Šiljkovici and Ježestica on 7 and 8 January 1993 - the Orthodox Christmas day attack - the Tribunal noted that throughout the summer of 1992, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims engaged in mutual fighting in the area of Kravica and Ježestica. The fighting intensified in December 1992 and the beginning of January 1993, when Bosnian Muslims were attacked by Bosnian Serbs primarily from the direction of Kravica and Ježestica. In the early morning of the 7 January Bosnian Muslims attacked Kravica, Ježestica and Šiljkovici. At the time of the attack a number of village guards were present. Convincing evidence suggested that the village guards were backed by the VRS and following the fighting in the summer of 1992 had received military support, including weapons and training. A considerable amount of weapons and ammunition was kept in Kravica and Šiljkovici. Moreover there was evidence that besides the village guards, there was Serb and Bosnian Serb military presence in the area.

http://www.un.org/icty/oric/trialc/judgement/ori-jud060630e.pdf "Prosecutor vs Naser Oric, Judgement". United Nations. 30 June 2006. paras. 590-676]

In these various instances the Tribunal while not excusing the actions of the units under Oric's control also described the wider context of conflict and military aggression in which those actions took place. The argument that seeks to explain away the Srebrenica Massacre as a spontaneous act of revenge often makes reference to a series of attacks on Serb villages and implicitly on Serb civilians by units under Oric's command in a way that ignores or underplays the militarisation of those villages and the provocative and retaliatory actions launched from them in the months and years before the final onslaught on Srebrenica

Opbeith was here to point many, many important facts, and he tried his best to reason with unreasonable. I must admit I lost control many times, and I admire Opbeith for being patient and having a thick skin. Both of us voice strong opposition to genocide denial. He is very sensitive to denials of human suffering. He's not just sensitive about Srebrenica, he is sensitive about Holocaust and genocide in Rwanda. He is kind, gentle, peace-loving human being, and as such, his views were not challenged properly. Instead of a fair debate, revisionists spat on his views, attacked his character, refused to even take into consideration his opinion, and to my shock - some admins even censored his opinion, which is reminiscent of islamic dictatorships and censorship police we can see in the Middle East.

And on a positive side, things have stabilized here, and let's hope they stay that way.

Bosniak 22:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

See my coment below, at the #disputed tag section —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Duja (talk • contribs) 09:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

disputed tag

Hi everyone, well looks like I won't be the most popular person for adding a disputed tag to this article! I promise to read all through the talk-page archives when I get the chance (have glanced at a few) but I have to at least say that I don't see how the ICTY can be considered an independent and supposedly reliable source, as many arguing against the 'revisionists' appear to claim. The ICTY is an institution set up by NATO, after all! And I would argue a tag at least directs readers to the talk-page archives. Also, in response to the argument that people disputing the facts are 'revisionists' because Holocaust deniers are, this doesn't follow. Surely by that logic, anyone who disputes anything (well, any alleged massacre, anyway) can be called a 'revisionist' (a very loaded term) by a person who agrees with it. Anyway, looking forward to reviewing the archives. Cheers everybody.

Oops, forgot to sign and date that. PS, for the record, I am open-minded about this topic -- I'm not convinced the sceptics/ 'revisionists' are correct by any means. But I do know some shocking lies were told about the Serbs by the Western media -- eg Slobodan Milosevic's 'Kosovo Field speech' was portrayed as a nationalist diatribe, when it was nothing of the sort! (This was reported accurately by Western media agencies at the time, but later distorted beyond recognition. See http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html for a discussion of this.)

Jonathanmills 04:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. The ICTY was not set up by NATO; it was by the UN Security Council Resolution 827. And if I may be so blunt, what would you call people who dispute the facts? The massacre was not an "alleged" massacre (and I'm not saying at all that you are claiming that it didn't happen); it is a proven fact; it not simply an opinion. Calling those who deny the that a massacre took place; or who cite considerably lower numbers, like only 2,000 dead "alternative views" seems to seriously call into question the basic absolute facts of the article; that a massacre occured in Srebrenica. Gardenfli 08:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Since when is murdering 2000 people at once not a massacre? —Psychonaut 09:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The past discussion seems to revolve around namecalling of "alternative"/"revisionist"/"denial" views. The general problem is that those views come by multiple people with a variety of motives, some of good faith, some of political agenda, and some of hatred. But I don't think that the relevant ones deny the scale of massacres, and putting them all under "genocide denialist" label is a) likely unfair b) dangerous. Some of those raise legitimate concerns, some less so. My general attitude (which doesn't have anything with any sort of revisionism of mine) is that we should avoid ugly namecalling and let the readers reach their own conclusions. Call it "overt political correctness" if you like, but see also WP:BLP: thus, I don't mind "alternative" or "sceptic", less so "revisionist", and I fail to see any actual relevant "denialist" view. Here's an interesting reading: [2] (ad nauseam: I don't provide it because I endorse it, just because it gives an overview of additional sceptic views). Duja► 10:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, you miss the point in dismissing the issue as one of namecalling. The article had a section "Denial of the massacre, revisionism and scepticism". You seem confident in your understanding of what has gone on here in the recent past so it puzzles me that you are describing what has happened as "putting them all under the heading of "genocide denialist"".

You say that you don't see any actual relevant "denialist" view when there has just been a lengthy exchange here on the subject of Lewis MacKenzie's view that happened could not have been genocide - which he expressed over a year after the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY had considered the line reasoning that he advanced and had confirmed that genocide under the terms of the Genocide Convention had taken place.

We have recently had the argument put forward at some length that the man on the street has a different view of genocide and so the rulings of the ICTY and the text of the Genicide Convention can be legitimately disregarded.

You say that the relevant views don't deny the scale of "massacres" when MacKenzie's downward revision of the figure accepted by the ICTY is repeatedly cited and only a month or so ago someone was claiming that only 2000 people had been killed.

Your analysis substantially misrepresents what has been going on here. It's not namecalling, it's not a game. And I'm puzzled as to your purpose in posting a link to a page that contains a ragbag of many of the "alternative views" points that have been dealt with here already - including the view that"What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three year period which reached a crescendo in July of 1995." What exactly are you trying to say with all this?

--Opbeith 11:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Opbeith, we seem to talk past each other. I don't see how I "misrepresent what was going here", when you can see for yourself that 90% of edits in the article and 90% of talk page space were devoted to the section currently called "alternative views", and most of it was how to phrase those views. As for my statement that "no-one seriously suggested 2000 as the figure", I see I was wrong and I retract that, although you'll agree that MacKenzie just questions the total death toll not-really-suggesting 2000 as the figure. Nowhere did I say or hinted that it was a game either (nor I think it is), nor I have any intention to play with numbers.
As for the link I provided, I already wrote the disclaimer; sorry, I don't feel compelled to write a 100-word sentence "this-is-the-view-of-some-people-but-it-doesnt-have-anything-to-do-with-my-opinion" next to every sentence of mine. I provided it in good faith, in case anyone wishing to expand or clarify that section can find some material for research and/or see what we're talking about (what are we talking about, btw?). I don't think that "The Revisionist" is a reliable source and I don't plead by any means to include that in the article; it does quote some people which might be relevant though.
But, can we stay on topic, please? Is the phrase "Alternative views" acceptable (I'm not too happy with it, either)? If not, how it should be titled? "Scepticism" comes to my mind as a potentially useful word stronger than "alternative" (and, yet again disclaimer, I don't avoid calling "denialist" someone who is an outright denialist). Duja► 13:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, your reference to "namecalling" suggested that the discussion of the words used to describe the positions that people took with respect to the question of genocide, the scale of the massacre and its reality was a simply a matter of personal disputation. If it's not a serious issue concerning the meaning of the words we use, then it's just a game.

The person who I was referring to who suggested the 2000 figure was not MacKenzie, it was an individual who posted to the Discussion page just before Christmas.

You say you don't avoid calling "denialist" someone who is an outright denialist, but you said that you didn't see any actual relevant "denialist" view. How are we going to define "outright denial"? MacKenzie questioning the view that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide when the ICTY Appeals Chamber's ruling on genocide at Srebrenica taking account of the issue of the transfer of women and children had been in the public domain for over a year seems to fall quite clearly into that category. --Opbeith 13:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

My use of term "namecalling" was inadvertently sloppy; I couldn't foresee it would be subject to such scrutiny. Well, fine, substitute it with "phrase". One way or another, if I thought it was a game, I certainly wouldn't spend so much time discussing it.
However, several editors have expressed concerns that "genocide denialist" is a libelous and loaded term, which should be avoided, especially regarding WP:BLP. We don't disagree about the substance fo MacKenzies views, and don't dispute the references, but their qualification is an editorial decision. Even if I might agree with your qualification of MacKenzie's statements. I'm trying to say is that we should err on the side of caution.
On the other hand, some stuff in the section regarding Serbia and Serbs' position in the article is outright wrong, i.e. the one that "Serbia, officially, has condemned the massacre from the very beginning". I watched the news at the time and I can tell you first-hand that it was met with utter silence and glorification of liberation, covered by Mladic's speech in front of frightened crowd of Bosniaks (I don't recall whether there were adult men in that crowd) regarding "how they have nothing to worry about and that they will get protected by VRS".
And, finally, another couple of interesting links NY Times Op. Ed. Vreme article on Scorpions (Serbian). Duja► 14:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja, I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm just emphatic about drawing attention to the implications of what is being said because it's important.

I don't class Lewis MacKenzie as a "genocide denialist", as I'd understand that term, in that I'm not aware of evidence of him having formally expressed his support for or having participated in a systematic effort to deny the fact of genocide at Srebrenica. The term hadn't in fact been used here before. The term we'd been discussing was "genocide denier"

From the evidence of his own words (his July 2005 article in the Globe and Mail) it's clear that MacKenzie questions the legal finding that genocide took place at Srebrenica, a finding that was arrived at after due consideration had been given to the argument MacKenzie expresses as "if you're committing genocide, you don't let the women go".

MacKenzie contests the ruling of the ICTY and its deliberations on the Genocide Convention. As a private individual with no specialist legal expertise he refutes the finding of genocide made by the competent legal authority. It's clear as daylight - MacKenzie is saying that what happened at Srebrenica should not be considered as genocide, in other words he denies that what happened at Srebrenica was genocide.

Having said that, I'm certainly happy to agree with you that there are parts of the article that do need calm review and reorganisation. And like you I remember the horror of those chilling pictures of Mladic reassuring those fearful children whom he was preparing to make orphans.--Opbeith 19:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone notify the appropriate authorities about Osli using a sockpuppet to avoid his parole and have him blocked? There is no reason why anyone should have to listen to this person. Thank you. 89.146.136.242 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well Osli, you again! After your sockpuppet role?! Come on man! Try to be honest sometimes. Emir Arven 19:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Osli. Your disputed tag was removed by an admin, and the admin happens to be of Serbian ancestry. It's obvious that support for your actions is diminishing, even among Serbs. The number is not 7,000 but 8,000 as confirmed by the United States Congressional Hearing on Srebrenica ( read here ). Let's not constantly play with number, we are not toddlers. 1. When it comes to "the exact number of kiilled" - there is no such number, as new mass graves are being discovered every month. It's a work in process, and as you know - DNA identification process is painstakingly slow and will take years to complete, so we can put names to the each victim. 2. I have no problem with presenting revisionist views unless they are placed in revisionist category. If you read the article, you will see that we mentioned Naser Oric's killing of 11 civilians in Kravice (please don't forget that before Oric killed 11 Serb civilians, 100s of Bosniak civilians were slaughtered by Serbian army). Also, MacKenzie's revisionist views were presented as they are. 3. I think rape accusations should be included, but for now, let's just avoid dealing with it. We all want to avoid another edit war, don't we? 4. Well, it could be useful to shorten the article, but when I say "shorten" I mean "paraphrase" longer paragraphs and make them shorter and more to the point. I am not sure would it be useful to categorize "disputed" issues... How about we categorize revisionist issues? Why is it so hard for you to accept the term "revisionism"? It's a widely used historical term. Bosniak 19:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ex Osli73 semper aliquot aliquod novum. "My general feeling is that no one editing this article has disputed that some 7000 or more were killed or that it was a massacre and defined as genocide by the ICTY."

Forget that today someone claimed here that the ICTY can't be said to be an independent and reliable source, likewise the lengthy exchange that argued that the man in the street's definition or Lewis MacKenzie's definition of genocide should take precedence over the ICTY's or the Genocide Convention's. On 27 January you yourself were remarking at my Discussion page "Whether the casualties in the Tuzla column should be included can of course be discussed - though, again, the editors of the article aren't really the ones who should make that judgement. Attacking less well armed opponents with the intent to kill is quite common, but is generally not referred to as "genocide" or "massacre" ..."

The next day on your Discussion page, after informing me that I obviously saw the Tuzla column as unarmed refugees (when I had discussed the difference between and relative proportions of armed members of the column and the unarmed civilians fleeing the imminent prospect of extermination), you said that you saw the column as being "the poorly armed remnants of the 28th Division".

If you disregard the civilian members of the column who were slaughtered while prisoners in the custody of the VRS on the grounds that they are military casualties, how do you get to the figure you say you accept? And if you're suggesting that we shouldn't "generally consider" the deaths of people you've identified as "less well armed opponents" to be "genocide" how do you reconcile that point of view with the ICTY's ruling?

It's impossible ever to be certain what your circumlocutions mean, where you'll be shifting your position to next or what arbitrary action you're about to spring on us. That's why it's not as easy as you suggest to discuss these issues with you.

OK, Duja, Jitse, I'll delete this one myself as soon as you tell me to. --Opbeith 19:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent response Opbeith. I would also like to add that we are not here to defend or apologize for Bosniak actions, but we are here to contribute our knowledge to this article. Osli, the attack on communist army (JNA - Yugoslav People's Army) in Tuzla is a separate issue. Tuzla is not Srebrenica, it has nothing to do with Srebrenica. However, if you want to discuss this issue in another article - you are more than welcome to do so. We should keep on topic with Srebrenica article and refrain from writing essays encompasing all Balkan events. Bosniak 19:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, you've got hold of the wrong Tuzla column. Osli73 and I were discussing the people "killed in fighting", as he described the members of the column of 12,000-15,000, approximately two thirds of them unarmed civilians, who died trying to escape from Srebrenica and make their way towards Tuzla. Members of the column made up the large majority of the victims at Srebrenica when they were slaughtered as defenceless prisoners. --Opbeith 19:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone notify the appropriate authorities about Osli using a sockpuppet to avoid his parole and have him blocked? There is no reason why anyone should have to listen to this person. Thank you.

Osli73, perhaps you might deal with the specific point I raised about how your position with regard to the Tuzla column makes nonsense of your position on other matters.

Whatever you, I or anybody else thinks about whether the article needs shortening/pruning, you should be well aware that your record disqualifies you from acting as arbiter on the subject. --Opbeith 00:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone notify the appropriate authorities about Osli using a sockpuppet to avoid his parole and have him blocked? There is no reason why anyone should have to listen to this person. Thank you.89.146.128.58 12:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, We may have "been over" the Tuzla column issue several times but I still can't see where I get a plain answer from you.

If you hold that all the members of the column were members of the 28th Division of the BiH Army and hence combattants, that the members of the column who died were "killed in fighting" and that "attacking less well armed opponents with the intent to kill is quite common, but is generally not referred to as "genocide" or "massacre"" I don't see how this is consistent with your stated position that you accept the figure of 8000 victims of the massacre and you accept the fact of genocide at Srebrenica.

It's this inconsistency between what you claim to accept in one breath and what you believe in another that makes me challenge the sincerity with which one or other of these views is being expressed. I'm aware that questioning your sincerity is going to get me deleted again but despite the scruples of editors who are willing to allow you free rein, the Wikipedia "Assume Good Faith" guidelines [3] provide adequate justification for comment on a pattern of provocative and disruptive interventions. --Opbeith 10:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Duja

Hi Duja. I thought you were Serbian (well I guess you are), but based on the information you posted on your website, you are also a Bosnian. In fact, you were born and lived in the region I came from. No matter how you feel, you are full blooded Bosnian, and I am glad you are respecting your Bosnian roots and not trying to vandalize Srebrenica Genocide article. I have sent you an email, so drop me a line. Cheers. Bosniak 19:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Lewis MacKenzie rape allegations

I was under the impression that we'd come to an agreement that those ridiculous rape allegations have no place in this article. Do I have to keep this article on my watchlist forever to keep removing them? User:Emir Arven, please review the talk page history; I'm not going to waste everyone's time reposting the arguments again. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 20:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

We didn't agree that the rape allegations were ridiculous and we didn't agree that they had no place in this article. What we did agree was that without them there were already sufficient grounds to question Lewis MacKenzie's authority as a commentator on matters relating to Srebrenica without needing to mention the allegations. --Opbeith 20:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

They are patently ridiculous. The original allegations were fabricated; the current ones run over the same tired ground. No charges have been filed; a prosecutor engaged in idle gossip with an AFP reporter, having initiated no legal proceedings whatsoever. The allegations have been repeatedly added to the article for the past several months in an attempt to smear MacKenzie's name as an ad hominem attack on his character. Let's just stick to the facts. Ad hominem arguments simply make you look desperate, as if you believe that the simple facts aren't enough to make your point. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 20:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone notify the appropriate authorities about Osli using a sockpuppet to avoid his parole and have him blocked? There is no reason why anyone should have to listen to this person. Thank you.89.146.128.58 12:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli73, please don't...you have no shame, just remember when you pretented to be Karl in order to promote Serb propaganda! Emir Arven 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Osli or whoever you are now, the sentence is info about re-opening the investigation based on testimonies of raped women. Show some respect to the victims. Emir Arven 22:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Emir Arven: Please review the recent talk page history; we've been over these arguments repeatedly. Opbeith: You have complained that you can never take the time to work on the substance of the article because you have to continually revisit old arguments. Here's a demonstration of why that happens. It appears from the edit history here and on other talk pages, including User talk:Osli73, that this politically motivated smear has been removed many, many times over the past several months, with exhaustive discussion about the source of the original fabrication, and the reasons why this ad hominem argument has no place here. Can I ask you to show some respect for WP:NPOV and drop this, please? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 22:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir Arven, regarding "Show some respect to the victims.": With all due respect, alleged victims. A local prosecutor engaged in idle gossip with an AFP reporter. He has not filed charges; Lewis MacKenzie has not been charged with any crime. The only reason for continually juxtaposing MacKenzie's comments with those unsubstantiated rape allegations is to serve as an ad hominem attack on his character. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 22:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, we don't know yet, because the investigation is re-opened (it was also opened during the war, because MacKenzie was well known by his friendship with today most wanted people that are hiding from justice, the war criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic responsible for this genocide). But I put just the fact that the investigation was re-opened. Emir Arven 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Emir said:

MacKenzie was well known by his friendship with today most wanted people that are hiding from justice, the war criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic responsible for this genocide).

Emir, with all due respect, that's ridiculous. MacKenzie's responsibilities in Sarajevo required him to have a working relationship -- not a "friendship" -- with all sides of the conflict. If you read his book, you'll find that his life was threatened by the JNA because they got it into their heads that he was personally responsible for a Bosnian ambush of JNA troops. As far as I can tell, the reality in the Balkans is that you're either an ally or an enemy -- nobody is accepted as being sincerely neutral.

But I put just the fact that the investigation was re-opened.

Just in passing, you added that comment using a non-reliable source that isn't even in English. Emir, can I ask you to honestly examine your motives for adding it? Is it possible that you added it because you believe MacKenzie is a Serb-loving, Bosniak-hating criminal, and calling him a rapist casts doubt on his credibility as a military analyst? The allegations themselves were known to have been fabricated when they came out of Borislav Herak's mouth in 1992. I spent far more time than I ever wanted to explaining all of this last month. These new allegations repeat the same old outrageous fabrications about MacKenzie raping Bosnian women in "Camp Sonja", a site that he never visited. It's now several months after Oleg Cavka gossiped to a reporter, and he still hasn't initiated any actual legal proceedings. Adding vague and unsubstantiated allegations as you've done here violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight:

'Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

The only possible reason for juxtaposing MacKenzie's comments about the Srebrenica massacre with the observation that a local prosecutor had a chat with an AFP reporter about rape allegations is to tell readers that this witness is not to be trusted. That's not how you go about writing an WP:NPOV encyclopedia article.

There's certainly good reason for including that {{Round In Circles}} template at the top of this page. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 04:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Douglas, on the whole I agree with you that until charges have been laid and proven the victims should be referred to as alleged victims. That's potentially hurtful to people who have a far closer personal acquaintance with matters than you or I but if we are observing the principle of "verifiability" rather than "truth" then that's the line we should try to follow where it's reasonable.

The rape allegations are relevant and important in that they have a bearing on MacKenzie's apparent partiality towards the Bosnian Serb leadership (going beyond the requirements of a "working relationship") and subsequently his endorsement of Bosnian Serb perspectives. But MacKenzie is only relevant to Srebrenica insofar as his opinions are regularly cited in support of tendentious arguments about the scale of the massacre and the fact of genocide. His unreliability has been adequately demonstrated. That's why I'm not convinced that the allegations need to remain in place here.

But with all your insistence on observing legal niceties you actually misrepresent the position regarding the laying of charges against MacKenzie. And I also find it disturbing that you consider it appropriate to lecture people about observing the niceties of libel law who have actually been on the receiving end of genocide, an area where you consider anything goes and feel free to disregard and reinterpret the provisions and findings of international law. --Opbeith 09:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I should add that in Emir Arven's exasperated response to Osli73 it's clear to me that in the context of the Bosnian war where rape was used as a weapon of war it's legitimate to refer to women who say they have been raped should as victims plain and simple unless there's a concrete reason for disbelieving them. That's a separate issue from the matter of acknowledging that the identity of the perpetrator remains unproven. --Opbeith 09:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

My take on this article

Editing this article, there are a few: (1) a few Serb revisionists (2) a few hyperbolic Bosnians (3) a few sane people working towards an accurate article

In any case, edit wars by groups (1) and (2) have made editting this article by group (3) completely pointless. The goal of the first two groups is to push their version of reality as much as possible without getting banned from Wikipedia. Logic and argument are useless, because groups (1) and (2) aren't listenning to logical argument. They respond only to power, the threat of getting banned, and on Wikipedia, the standard for getting banned is quite high. There are really no penalties for raising bogus objections, making intermittent false edits, and otherwise being a massive nuisance.

I'm not editting this article because it's a massive waste of time. I could make a few changes, but protecting the changes, arguing on talk page etc..., would be an absolute full time job. If MacKenzie comes in and sues Wikipedia for libel, fine with me. That's what Wikipedia deserves for having a barely policed process that lets intellectually dishonest editors hijack an article because they have more free time. As far as I can tell, the only way to get banned is to blatantly vandalize, make personal threats or violate the 3 revert rule, other than that, everything appears to be fair game. -- Mgunn 05:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mgunn, I share your frustration but at the same time I'm aware that this isn't an academic exercise. Knowledge doesn't exist in isolation from the real world. We're not engaged in describing a herbarium specimen. We're dealing with an event that has destroyed and continues to destroy people's lives.

We need to distinguish between attempts to promote a biased account of history and the irruption of understandable and proper anger when experience is being traduced. We're in the immensely privileged position of being able to take a relatively detached position, we should be careful how we judge the actions of others. --Opbeith 08:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Why shouldn't this be an academic exercise? Why should emotion have anything to do with this article at all? I'm disappointed with the constant conflict mentality. In the brief period I've watched this article there has been this constant barrage of inappropriate edits: some people keep trying to take out any reference to "genocide" and other people keep inserting stuff like this wild MacKenzie stuff. The allegation of rape against a Canadian general while on active duty is an absolutely extraordinary allegation. I'm not Canadian, but I have great confidence in their legal system and military, and if there anything to the allegation, I'm sure they would have taken action. Also, the idea that a NATO military officer should be turned over to a foreign country for alleged actions while on active duty is also extraordinary. The position being argued regarding MacKenzie is an absolutely radical position both with regard to facts and international politics/law. -- Mgunn 11:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Former General Lewis Mackenzie is already under investigation in Bosnia and he was invited to respond to charges of rape. Serbian and leftist web sites are posting distorted and highly suspicious material trying to prove that he is innocent, etc. Well, let him face rape victims, let him answer charges. If he is innocent, then be it. He has been avoiding responsibility for too long. And he's been paid by Serb lobby to hold speeches. I mean, the guy is obviously pro-Serbian, there is no question about that. Is he guilty of rape? I don't know - let the courts speak. He claims he didn't do it. However, he never wanted even to bother to visit Supreme Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and answer allegations of rape. Jim Douglas, Osli73, and similar people will continue to disrupt this article - as they do right now. It is not my responsibility to police them. You know well when I react to vandalism that I either get blocked or banned. There is a clear double standard, however, I tend to assume good faith. What I learned here is that it's imposible to reason with unreasonable, so I don't take it to heart as I did in the past. Let's stop this endless Mackenzie discussion. He's not that important. Cheers. Bosniak 07:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak, please don't mischaracterize other editors; it's not polite. Your definition of disruption and vandalism appears to be any contributions from editors who disagree with you. As far as being blocked for "reverting vandalism", I'm sorry; I don't see it. Here's your block log; which one of these was you getting blocked for "reverting vandalism"?

1. "No personal attacks"
2. "threatening legal action"
3. "vandalizing AfD votes"
4. "3RR"
5. "disruption, revert-warring, trolling, incivility - discussed on ANI"

For the record, I did stop the MacKenzie discussion. After a long, painful week, I was under the impression that we'd reached a consensus to omit unsubstantiated rape allegations -- and yet here they are again. Since we're all agreed that we'd like to stop this endless MacKenzie discussion, can I ask you to remove it from the article, please? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 07:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)