User talk:Fadix/

Welcome

Hi! Welcome to wikipedia. In regarding your edits to the Armenian genocide article, Please read the following articles: Wikipedia is not an online forum. Armenian genocide is a dispute that is yet to be resolved. Your edits are POV (point of view) oriented. No one is or can acknowlege or deny the Armenian Genocide on wikipedia. Please read the articles below, you are OBLIGATED to follow thse:

• Neutral point of view
• What Wikipedia is not

Thank you for your time! --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 14:43, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I DID READ EVERYTHING ON WIKIPEDIA, AND ITS NOTE ON WHAT IS NEUTRAL, NONE OF WHAT I WROTE ARE POV, EVERY POINTS I BROUGHT WERE NOT MY OPINION BUT WHAT IS SAID BY THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE ACCADEMIA, THE LIST OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS IS RECOGNISED AND WELL ESTABLISHED... THE SPECIAL ORGANIZATION AS WELL, I WONDER HOW THOSE CAN BE POV. SHOW ME WHICH POV, SHOW ME JUST ONE POV I HAVE USED, AND I WILL REFER TO YOU TO DOZENS OF WORKS SHOWING THAT THE CLAIMS ARE NOTE MINE.

Coolcat, etc

I won't take sides between you two. I want to see signs that you have both read, understood and abide by Wikipedia policies and guidelines, especially the following ones:

• No personal attacks
• Consensus
• Neutral point of view

So far despite the protestations from both sides I'm not seeing a lot of this from either of you. No calling one another childish, no calling one another whackos. I'll be watching both of you and I don't want to be disappointed. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:28, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am working on NPOVing the article. As far as I remeber I did not refer him as "childish" I revered to revert wars beeing childish and how much I want to evade one. I am urging my remote party, to read my edits carefully and stop acusing me with things. That article is NOT neutral. If you cannot deal with oposing views you dont belong to wikipedia. You are not right neither I am, this is a contriverisal topic. I dont care of your support. This article is based on a dispute, the article should not be for neither sies view. I amde a few edits, tell me what you think. BTW, please do NOT revert, overwrite, scream, whinine, swear, insult me/my edits without discussing. Instead please discuss. I expect to see a civilised discussion there is no reason for threats. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:48, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your general attitude towards wikipedia is not promissing judjing from your very own talk page. This is neither a warzone nor a forum you can "fight" on, while you are free to put whatever you like but wikipedia is not your own which you can do whatever you like... I am only being tolerant to your general attitude due to the Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. You will work with me and other mods not against us. We may disagree but you have to reason. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:48, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My attitude is very understandable given that you have reverted back what I have justified with 160 pages of answers. You have not justified any of your edits. Wikiepdia neutral point of view concerns presenting opposing views, but giving more places to the one recognized by most. Another thing that the Neutral point of view doesn't include, is to give false informations about a claim. If a claim is A, you can not claim that that claim is B. I am not telling here that the claim should not be included, what I am saying is that it should be presented as it is claimed and not your POV. Both Turks and Armenians knows that I have done extensive research about this issue, I have written reviews about works etc. I am ready to include the opposing point of view, but you edit my article by claim that there are POV, but you introduce POV yourself. Whuile I just justified in the talk page why I will be editing back some of the informations, it is expected that you will be reverting them without even talking about it in the talk page. That's disgusting given that I spent hours and hours and 160 pages to justify the entirety. I know that as a Turk you have your own opinions, but my position doesn't end up with simply opinions, for over 5 years I have read about that issue and have reviewed the major works published about it, and I won't accept that someone that because of his opinion moderate me not because I am not respect Wikipedia rules, but rather because he can't accept something. When I say most “scholars” there is no reason for you to delete that info and claim that there is two opposing view, without indicating that one of those two views is what is supported by most neutral scholars. And again, I repeat, I could very well add in the Holocaust entry at top like you do with the Armenian genocide. Indicating that Jewish and Muslem views are presented there... because as I stated, the majority of the Muslim doubt the Holocaust did happen. Even thought the Ottoman Empire is an Islamic Empire, the Armenian genocide is more recognized than the Shoah among the Muslim. There are many Arab historians that have treated about the subject and just recently a work documenting them has been published. Those are not POV, thos are relevant informations and you can not only edit them. Fadix 15:10, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well if the majority of the muslims dispute it you cannot come out of nowhere claimin its a fact. It is not my position to dispute it or acknowlege it. I am not Turkish. I happen to live in Turkey due to the nature of my assignment. What you blieve are facts are not necesarily facts. You are acusing a nation of a massacre. That is neither widely accepted nor disputed as far as wikipedia is concerened. You claim to follow a cause to proove Amenian Genocide, while I am trying to make it neutral. I discussed my points long before you got here. You cannot bluntly come here out of nowhere and claim your beliefs as facts. It does not matter how many hundereds of pages of stuff you throw at me it is a POINT OF VIEW. I believe its reasonable to say. A scholar with a point of view is not neutral. The wikipedia policy if you had had read the NPOV article goes like this: "Fairness and sympathetic tone
If we're going to characterize disputes fairly, we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.

We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, on the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail." Read the article then start doing edits. Dont claim you read it until you actualy have read it. You cannot claim that the "majority" believes in so such and such, thats your majority. You cannot talk as the voice of all scholars. If you cannot honor the oposing view you are POV oriented. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:37, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are sabotaging the entire Wikipedia concept. I repeat, stop policing every entries involving Turkey. It is the first time I hear from a non-Turk: “You are acusing a nation of a massacre.” Because that actually show that you are in no way in any position to moderate the Armenian genocide entry neither any of the entries involving Turkey in anyway. And I think that if you think a little about it, you will understand why this is not accusing a nation of genocide, more than any other nations being accused of any genocides. You claim having discussed about the issue in the past, I have actually read every single material posted at the talk page, and I have seen no any contribution coming from your part. If I am blind, show me where. The talk page is there for a purposes, it is for discussion, you can not just decide what you consider as “true” and revert articles, this is not how it works... more so, when there has about 200 pages of discussions on the talk pages.

And again, you fail to understand, the neutral point of view make it clear that it is logical that as much places should be left to a version as it is agreed among the Academia. You claim that my majority “claim” is untrue. That's ridiculous, I have read over a hundred work regarding the issue, and many opposing it... have read hundreds of essays, I study the matter for over 5 years. And it is clear that this affirmation is true, even the first works regarding World war I support the theses of planed destruction of the Armenians... One of those I have here on my desk right now: “A Brief History of the Great War” by Carlton J. H. Hayes” published in 1920. I don't see what is wrong as to say “most” when it is most. Right now you live in Turkey, so you're under the impression that it isn't true, but I do live in Canada, have access to an Inter loan program, have visited all the major libraries in my area... I just have to search Armenians in the index, and it is obvious that it is “most.”

And this is not about a scholars point of view, this is what is said about an event, and what most of those scholars say it.

And, I NEVER EDIT, something before actually having read it and justifying my edition, unless it is adding a link. I do not just shoot “POV and propaganda” I visit the talk page and tell it. This is not what you do, you just go on your way and decide to sabotage the Armenian genocide entry, and now that you have learned the non-English entries do not support your position, you want to report that. Mind here that an admin there and another acting as a mod, both were moderating it. You can not sell your positions in everything that concerns Turkey.Fadix 17:51, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nagorno Karabagh protection

Yes, when we protect a disputed page we always have to make a choice (even if the choice we make is not to make a conscious choice) about which version to protect. Whichever version we protect, the others may think that it amounts to an endorsement of that version--which it isn't. Wikipedia isn't a sport and administrators aren't referees. We're not more likely to be able to judge which is the best of two competing versions of a page, and usually we're much *less* likely to know which is best. Nevertheless we are usually told by both sides that their version is the one true version.

There are two good documents to look at which might help. The first one is serious: Wikipedia:Protection policy. The second is less serious, a jokey response to all those complaints we get: m:The Wrong Version. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:37, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

"My edits are explained in the talk page. If I forgot any expl. point to it in the talk page" Your edits no matter how well you explain them are not neutral. I made several of them neutral. you reverted my edits. What bothers me is not the material you added, but the way you input it. You are bluntly acusing the other party with murder while not giving the other party anyway to respod react or give their views. Wikipedia is not your forum. Sincerely. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 14:03, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My edits ARE neutral, yours aren't. Read Wikipedia neutral point of view, you can not present two versions equally when they are not represented equally in the Academia, my edits clearly present the Turkish government version, and give more place to what is more widely accepted. Look CoolCat, I can present here a list of over a hundred book I have read about the issue, and a good portion of them, revisionist materials... I can present the reviews I have posted, I have enough of this anti-academic policy in Wikipedia, I do not inject myself in discussions I ignore about, so I ask you to do the same. If you have any problem with any of the points I raised brought them in the talk page, and not just shou8t they are not neutral.

Fact, most Academics support my position, and even the moderate work: “Is the Holocaust Unique.” Why don't you present a list of books you have read about the topic? Why don't you present reviews of works? People like you are killing Wikiepdia by introducing national biases. And I can present here Turks who will affirm that your edits are not Neutral even though they may disagree with me. You can not present equally what the international community accept as fact, and the majority of Academics with what is supported by Turkey... if you do that, you hijack the article.Fadix 16:47, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you both read this. Take it as a polite warning about the consequences of the path you are treading by insisting that your version is more neutral than all the others: m:MPOV.

I know it's going to be hard for you both to agree a version of Armenian Genocide, if only because it *is* a very controversial issue bound up with national identity and a very turbulent period of history for that region. I think, Fadix, that your idea of going to mediation is a good step forward, and I urge noth you and Coolcat to give it an honest try. Don't get caught in the trap that Tabib and Rovoam have gotten into, where eventually (surprisingly quickly, actually) the issue goes before Arbcom and you could both stand to be penalised for failing to cooperate in the spirit of openness. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:02, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Tony, in my opinion, you're the most neutral I have encountered in the English Wikipedia. Who are mediators, and how are they selected?

Now you have chosen a mediator? And yet never tell me... -_- --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 00:23, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But I warned you that I will be asking for a mediation today, what did you think that I was lying? He(Jwrosenzweig) asked me to chose a mediator, I have read his page, and since he has a Bachelor in history I have chosen him, if you don't like him, we can compromise for another one, but I thought that a gratuate in history was the best choice.Fadix 00:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

I am very happy that you consider my edits to be neutral. :-) In my opinion, at least the lead section of the article is now quite good, and lay out the straight facts, without actually supporting/rejecting any of the two sides of this issue. Stereotek 17:51, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The problematic with this subject is that it is very difficult to not support one side against the other. There is a clear disproportion between the two positions. And more, how do we handle the special organization? The subject has not been covered by any revisionists. Their claim is that there was no genocide and that Armenians were removed for treachery, but they never raise the question of the special organization, or such things. I don't know if you understand what I mean. What I mean is that some of those key elements are not covered by the other side, which means there is no "other" interpretations for them. So, the reader will obviously think that the article is not neutral. There are many such issues attached with the Armenian cases that I will be covering, and I really don't know how they can be neutralized. Example, the Ottoman barred relief by pretext that nothing is wished to be done that could prolong their lives...

Another example, the Ottoman allies position during the war, if I present it, the reader will ultimatly think that this is not a controversial subject, and rightfully so. If I refer to the fact that it is the second most studied genocide, they will think that the article is supporting the theses of genocide. If I point out the fact that Raphael Lemkin, the person who coined the term genocide included the Jewish and Armenian cases not only as cases of genocide, but as well as part of the definition, it will clearly indicate a genocide.

How am I to handle this? For me it is like trying to propose equaly the theses that Earth is flat, and the theses that Earth is spherical... if I were to cover such a subject, if I present both cases, and their strong arguments, obviously one side will have the strongest arguments against the other and the subject won't appear neutral. Fadix 18:24, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you post accusations of bias on my talk page (regardless of who it is about) please provide links to the proof. The talk page of the article is far too long to follow all the time, and I can't really find the actual edits in the history either. Also, what you posted is primarily aimed at Cool Cat and should therefore be at his talk page. If you want me to be aware of your comment, a small note is more than enough. Mgm|^(talk) 22:58, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Right now, the only thing I am after is that I want a mediator, I just hope that after that he doesn't still claim biases. You want links, but the problem is not just one example, biases is all over the place, I cover this in the talk page of the Armenian Genocide entry, and have seen many other biases introduced by him in other entries involving Turkey. He delete informations to mislead the reader, if you go at the history, just follow the other member that now edit, and compare them with Coolcat edits to see what he does. Fadix 23:24, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am living in the US, you make asumptions regarding me and I dont like that. Also in wikipedia do not TALK to me on someone elses talk page thats like talkig to me from someone elses phone instead of mine. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 14:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

ORDER

YOU ARE ORDERED THAT ALL YOUR EDITS MUST BE APPROVED BY COOLCAT. YOU MUST OBTAIN PERMISSION FROM NOW ON TO EDIT ANYTHING ON THIS SITE. YOU ARE COMMANDED. IF YOU BREAK THIS RULE, YOU SHALL BE PUNISHED. PUNISHMENT WILL BE SEVERE AND SLOW. THIS ORDER IS FROM THE HIGHEST LEVEL. YOU ARE COMMANDED