User talk:Nipsonanomhmata

Point of Interest

You might be interested in reading this Council of Europe document. What I call "ethnic Macedonians" and what you call "Slavic speakers" (whether or not they identify as ethnic Macedonians or ethnic Greeks) were not permitted to return to Greece as they are not "Greek by genus". Lunch for Two (talk) 10:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the article. Greece adopted policies that were similar to those of neighbouring Balkan countries. That's what politicians do. Moreover, the ethnic Greeks had to wait a few years before even they were allowed to return. Then there was the Paedomazoma where Communists (regardless of ethnic origin) kidnapped children en masse (regardless of ethnic origin) and took them out of Greece. I wouldn't be surprised if the kidnapped children also had a hard time returning to Greece.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 23:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

You've missed the point. It doesn't matter for what reasons people left Greece, if they were not "Greek by genus" (Ie. Greek speaking Greeks) then they were not allowed to return, and they have still not been permitted to return. Only ethnic Greeks have been repatriated, those who are not ethnically Greek (ie. Macedonian speakers) are still barred from repatriation. Lunch for Two (talk) 00:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

You mean "Greek by birth". I have not missed the point. I have explained that Greek politicians adopted policies similar to those of neighbouring Balkan countries. Moreover, the majority did not voluntarily leave Greece. The vast majority were either expelled because they were Communists or they were kidnapped by the Communists. Moreover, the reference that you have provided is a motion at the European Parliament that has not been passed and is not considered WP:RS.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 01:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

From what I'm aware its "Greek by Genus". Btw, I've noticed you have been saying that the same dialect spoken in places such as Lofoi is spoken by 2 "villages" in R. Macedonia. If its the Prilep-Bitola dialect you are talking about, then it is spoken in 2 large cities across the border by roughly 250,000 people. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I said two locales. Not two villages. I doubt it is 250,000 people because that is a very large percentage of the population of the "Republic of Macedonia". The word "Genus" is derived from the Greek language as are many words in all European languages. They couldn't well allow Slav-speakers who were not born in Greece, or whose parents were not born in Greece, because the Socialist government was giving them all generous Civil War pensions. More generous than the war pensions awarded to those who were on the winning side of the civil war. Moreover, I doubt that they could fund genetic testing of individuals and what would that prove anyway? Much simpler to ask them if they have a Greek passport and if they don't then they are not Greek (or they have lost their passport, or they were born abroad and their parents might have Greek passports).  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:27, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Btw, you said 'villages' [1] (Not that it's an important issue or anything, and the 250,000 figure was just a rough estimate of the population of Bitola - 95,385 + Prilep - 66,246 (with more for those living in between/around the two)). All of these people that I am talking about were born in Greece and the vast majority still have their Greek passports/documentation (You always tend to bring in unusual possibilities into all discussions with me, which leads the conversation elsewhere, please focus on the core group). Please read this Council of Europe document, especially page three where the is a translation of the original ministerial decree. Is it not true that the words "Greek by Genus" (ie. ethnic Greeks, not ethnic Macedonians, ethnic Turks, etc.) Lunch for Two (talk) 14:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

ok, my apologies. I have amended from "villages" in that instance to "cities". Was any genetic testing carried out? It can only mean by birth (and by passport). If they were born in Greece they have every right to return to Greece but they need someway to prove it i.e. passport or birth-certificate. You can't just give free nationality to anybody who asks. There are far too many illegal immigrants in Greece. I apologise if I sometimes appear as though I don't understand some of the issues. I am learning about this all the time. But it appears obvious to me that there is a pro "Republic of Macedonia" bias (as well as a pro Communist bias) in many articles when there should not be. I really don't understand how anyone with the correct legal documentation is excluded from re-entering Greece. Or how. But I do know that Greek muslims from Thrace who left Greece and attempted to return without Greek passports or any proof that they were Greek were prevented from returning. But that's understandable. You can't just go in and out of a country without legal documentation.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:46, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

What has genetic testing got to do with it?! These people still have their old Greek passports/documentation, they just are not permitted to renew citizenship/return to live permanently in Greece because of the laws mentioned. My point was that despite it being common sense that these people should be able to return, these laws exist which prevent them from returning (which was contrary to your initial assertion that "Slavophone Greeks"/ethnic Macedonians have been allowed to return). I accept your apology, but sometimes in issues like at Kostas Novakis, you need to acknowledge the existence and validity of other points of view. Lunch for Two (talk) 14:54, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

As for people not being able to return it is because of this law. The Turks from Thrace is a similar yet different circumstance. Lunch for Two (talk) 14:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Moreover, how do you tell if someone is not Greek by genus? (whatever the interpretation of genus is). If you were born in Greece, speak fluent Greek, write fluent Greek, and have a Greek passport and birth certificate then how can you be ethnically filtered? Would they do it by surnames?  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 15:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't said that Slavophones have been allowed to return. I said that Greek Communists were allowed to return. Obviously, a number of them were Slav-speaking.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 15:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Objectively it would hard, but in reality it is not as complicated. I'm guessing it would be same way you determine if someone is Greek by Genus, namely that their mother language is Greek and that they observe Greek customs, traditions and have Greek names. In the Eastern Bloc these people would have been associated with Greek language programs, etc. The non-Greek by Genus (the vast majority ethnic Macedonians) had Macedonian as their mother language and observed ethnic Macedonian customs, traditions and have Macedonian names (alongside the Greek names which they were given). In the Eastern Bloc these people would have been associated with Macedonian language programs, etc. Besides, I'm sure you have been to a border crossing before, you know how much discretion the border police have. Lunch for Two (talk) 15:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Really, need I point out your own words to you again? "Moreover, there are many Slavic-speakers and descendents of Greek ethnicity who have returned from Slavic countries after the Greek civil war." [2] and "Slavic-speaking Greeks were allowed to return to Greece after the Greek civil war. You cannot argue with that. I don't understand your point about Slavic-speaking refugees." [3] I'm trying hard to assume good faith... Lunch for Two (talk) 15:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Oops. I said Slavaphones when I meant to say "ethnic Macedonians". That's part of the problem. You call the Slavophones "ethnic Macedonians" but in Greece they are Slav-speaking Greeks. They are not recognised as "ethnic Macedonians".  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 15:30, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Have read the question put to the European Parliament. I think I have a better understanding of what "Greek by genus" means although it doesn't really mean what it says. My understanding is that if it is decided on the ideology of the individual concerned. It appears the individual says that they are ideologically/ethnically "Macedonian" instead of ethnically Greek at the border crossing and it appears as though that is a self-admission that they are not Greek. But I also suspect that it is because "Slavomacedonians" are considered to be Slavic-speaking Greeks and that "Macedonian" ethnicity is not recognised in Greece just as the name "Republic of Macedonia" is not recognised in Greece. So if you tell a Greek border officer that you want to return to Greece and live there but you are ethnically "Macedonian" and not ethnically Greek from the region of Macedonia in Greece then the passport officer will not let you through. I'm no expert on the subject. But that seems to make sense from the document that you asked me to read. The "genus" word is being used in a very strange way and I don't think it is the correct way to describe it. The Greeks have always had a fantastic relationship with the Yugoslavians. This whole issue is a real pain. But it is understandable that Greece is defensive because the "Republic of Macedonia" has made it perfectly clear that they want the White Tower of Thessaloniki in the "Republic of Macedonia" and also claim that the ancient Greek history of Macedonia is Slavic history. In the cases of the Slavic-speaking Greek refugees ... well that's true it is part of their history but they are supposed to be Greek. You can't reclaim your heritage by changing ethnicity.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 15:31, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

In Greece you can find both "Slavophone Greeks" and ethnic Macedonians (they are one and the same people). I call them ethnic Macedonians because linguistically, culturally and historically there is no difference between them and myself. If people choose to identify as ethnic Greeks then that needs to be respected, however there are also people who live in Greece who you call "Slavophones" however who call themselves "Makedonci". This second category of persons also needs to be respected. "Genus" here is used to distinguish between ethnic background, which in most cases is determined by mother language. Those who have Greek as their mother language, are of course considered to be nothing other than ethnic Greeks, however there are those with the Macedonian language as their mother language, and these people are not classified to be "Greek by genus". Do you admit that there are ethnic Macedonians who live in Greece? Lunch for Two (talk) 15:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

The only "Macedonian" ethnicity that I recognise was reverse assimilated in ancient Greece since the Macedonians were a Hellenophone tribe and if the ancient Macedonians were Slavs then today all of Greece would be speaking Slavic because Alexander the Great was in charge. I do recognise that there are Slavic-speakers who are born Greek and that they are also called Slavomacedonian which means Slavic-speakers of the Macedonian region of Greece. Everybody in the Greek region that is called Macedonia considers themselves to be Macedonian, just as everybody who is born in Athens considers themselves to be Athenian, everybody who is born in Crete considers themselves to be Cretan, everybody born in the Republic of Cyprus considers themselves to be Cypriot. But they all consider consider themselves to be Greek (ofcourse there are other ethnic minorities). The vast majority of Greeks in the Greek region of Macedonia do not claim that there is a distinct Macedonian ethnicity nor do they strive for an independent country.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 15:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Cute things

permalink. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 17:09, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Very. But not unfamiliar behaviour.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 19:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I forgot; the kind of article-neighbourhoods you frequent may make this seem trivial in comparison :) Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 22:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

:-)  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 22:48, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Good work

Hi Nipsonanomhmata. IMO the advice regarding the term 'Greek Macedonia' by Taivo and FutPerf was friendly and, especially, accurate. In fact, it has often been used by Greek sources in the past, especially before the 1970s. I think that the context is all important. Thanks for your good editing and sorry if you think my interpretation disagrees with your interpretation. Politis (talk) 08:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello Politis, I compare use of the propagandistic term 'Greek Macedonia' with 'Greek Cyprus' and 'Turkish Cyprus'. There is no 'Greek Cyprus'. There is only the 'Republic of Cyprus'. Similarly, there is no 'Greek Macedonia' there is only 'Macedonia'. Some people may have used 'Greek Macedonia' but I consider it to be derogatory. If somebody would like to distinguish between the one and only original then they should say 'Macedonia in Greece' or 'Macedonia (Greece)'. It's like saying that 'Coca Cola' is now called 'Greek Coca Cola', 'Bulgarian Coca Cola', and God-forbid '"Macedonian" Coca Cola'. 'Coca Cola' would not stand for it. I have no problem with the name 'Macedonian' but it should be used correctly and not as it is being used by brain-washed Yugoslavian Communists and their descendents who were formerly Slavic-speaking Greek Communists who think that they are 'ethnically Macedonian' when ancient Hellenic-speaking Macedonians were already reverse-assimilated, in ancient times, in to the wider area. Moreover, Old Church Slavic is an excellent article and should be read more widely. We should not be describing town names with a pseudo neo-"Macedonian Slavic" language which is actually evolved Old Church Slavic.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

You are an eloquent and intelligent user. The problem is that, as in every human-created development, there are areas better described as cesspools. You fell in one such area. If you keep digging, the kind, and even the smell, of the collected accumulation will be predictable. Don't. Idealism, wrong-headed or not, is not meant to be a surrogate scoop. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks. I know that I'm eloquent and intelligent. But on Wikipedia I feel like a complete idiot. If nothing else at least I stopped them harassing Todor who was experiencing the customary kick-in before I got there. Now they are putting the boot in to me instead. Looks like I may be topic banned on a topic that I've only really edited in with any gusto this month. At least Todor has contributed constructively which is more than I can say for any of the others. Fut Perf is always in direct opposition as is Taivo. Predictable.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 15:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)