User talk:Tewfik/Archive 7

• (rocky start) Archive 1
• (until 17-06-2006) Archive 2
• (until 03-08-2006) Archive 3
• (until 04-09-2006) Archive 4
• (until 30-10-2006) Archive 5
• (until 21-02-2007) Archive 6

intersted in your view on this issue

Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-02-19_Inayat_Bunglawala. Tnx. Zeq 08:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

expert sources on anti-Zionism

I see you're contributing to the edition of the anti-Zionism article.

You've made an interesting point, i.e. that certain sources are not expert, including the poet Michael Rosen and Tanya Reinhart, of Tel Aviv University. However, the same applies to Diana Muir, a historian who makes claims pertaining to the field of statistics, and who misrepresents the very survey she's reviewing, claiming that it deals with anti-Zionism, when actually this term is not once mentioned in the paper.

My point is, either we delete all nonexpert sources or we leave them all.--Abenyosef 01:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Al-Aqsa Intifada

I would appreciate a response to my objections to your edits on the talk page there. I see that you are editing there now and ignoring my latest comment regarding the fact that s source was provided for non-violence as majority tactic, whereas you have no sources for the opposite point of view. I would appreciate acknwoledgement of this point. Thanks. Tiamut 10:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

My contributions show that I was not editing this or any other entry for over four hours prior to this message. Tewfik^Talk 17:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Your response here

I'd like your response here.Bless sins 21:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

A final warning

Tewfik, if you revert my well-sourced additions one more time, particularly as regards the indigneous status of Palestinians, I will report you and include a history of your reversions of all the well-sourced information I have added in the past. Please see: Category:Indigenous peoples. Note that it says only one source is required from an international, national or sub-national organization or scholar to establish indigeneity. I have provided over 7 in different arenas where we have had this discussion. I also appended the UN one to my inclusions of Palestinians to the indigenous pages in question. Stop. Now. Thanks. Tiamut 17:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent the situation with strawmen, and please don't issue these threats. Tewfik^Talk 19:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

User subsequently blocked for 3RR on that entry. Tewfik^Talk 22:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

I posted the following message on User Talk:GabrielF, and am pasting it here. Same story: if it is a mistake, and you can explain, I apologize, but otherwise I hope you will prevent the need for a report and/or further remedies. I might stress that there is more evidence I could provide, but have stuck with the main issues here. Respectfully, Mackan79 03:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi GabrielF. Your recent edits on Anti-Zionism and other pages have raised concerns with me and others that you and User:Tewfik are the same user. I'm laying out the basis for the concern below, so you can respond, before I file a request for checkuser. If there is some odd explanation for this, I apologize, and will gladly see this deleted.

My concern was raised by the following series of edits on Anti-Zionism on February 21, before which neither Tewfik nor GabrielF appear to have edited the page in several weeks or months:

• Edit 1: 20:44 21 Feb 2007 - Tewfik enters content dispute to revert Reinhart paragraph
• Edit 2 (Talk page): 20:47 21 Feb 2007 - Three minutes later, not Tewfik, but GabrielF leaves message "explaining revert" of Reinhart paragraph (see edit summary).

Huh? Ok, we wait.

• Edit 3 (Talk page): 21:03 21 Feb 2007 - Tewfik leaves message with nearly identical sentiment to GabrielF (but without acknowledging that GabrielF just said the same thing).
• Edit 4: 21:50 21 Feb 2007 - Tiamut reverts Tewfik back to Mackan
• Edit 5: 22:17 21 Feb 2007 - GabrielF finally reverts Tiamut in first edit on page since 13 September 2006

Ok, so specifically: What revert were you explaining at 20:47 21 Feb 2007? It appears Tewfik was the only individual who had just reverted the page, 3 minutes ago. You had not reverted the page for several months prior. So it a coincidence that you show up for the first time, 3 minutes after Tewfik's also-first revert on the page to directly explain it?

In this regard I also found another sequence of interest, which I recalled from Zionism.

• Edit 1: 15:54, 16 Feb 2007 - GabrielF reverts material for POV concerns.
• Edit 2 (Talk page): 15:58, 16 Feb 2007 - Four minutes later, GabrielF leaves message "explaining my last revert further" (see edit summary)

And then on Racism by country:

• Edit 1: 15:48, 12 Feb 2007 - GabrielF reverts, wanting more discussion
• Edit 2 (Talk page): 15:55, 12 Feb 2007 - Seven minutes later, GabrielF leaves comment with "explanation of revert" in talk.

Two points:

1. A person generally does not say they are "explaining revert" unless they have actually reverted. Rather, they post an explanation, and then revert "per talk." "Explaining revert" generally suggests one has already reverted, not that one plans to do so.
2. Your previous editing indeed seems to show that your pattern is to revert and then "explain" your revert, not to "explain revert" and then assume the material will still be there to do so.

Based on these issues, I took a look through each of your edit logs (Tewfik [1] and GabrielF [2]), and was interested to find a very strong correlation. That is, when GabrielF is editing, Tewfik is not. In fact, despite rather heavy editing by both accounts, I could not find a single day among the first seven months of Tewfik's account where you were editing at the same time. This held true until 25 May 2006. On that day, you (GabrielF) inexplicably went on a spree reverting vandalism on many random pages, something you hadn't done before, along with placing a series of "test" templates on user pages in very close succession. Tewfik, during this period, went on editing as normal.

In other words, the one time you edited at the same time, it was done in the way that would most likely have been orchestrated with a friend (or alone) to cover your tracks, and in a way that was highly inconsistent with your previous style of editing.

In sum, I find this very frustrating, because you seem to be a dedicated editor, if also somewhat of a dedicated edit warrior as Tewfik. In fact, I did not plan to report this based on the first incident on anti-Zionism, despite having seen the events unfold, because I did not want to deal with the hassle. Unfortunately, your continued reversions on the same page force my hand. Ultimately, if this is a misunderstanding, I will be happy to find out why, and will apologize fully. Alternatively, if you would like to admit that you are the same user, and that it was simply a mistake on your part (technical and/or judgment) that you ended up editing on the same page a few times, I will be happy to simply see Tewfik retired, along with his combative style of editing. If there is a poor explanation, however, with all respect, I think a checkuser and any subsequent remedies may be necessary.

I hope we can deal with this constructively. I'm also posting this on User:Tewfik. Mackan79 03:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I can appreciate how wanting to find a connection can lead one to see what isn't there, and I don't blame you for that. However I do take offence at your 'respectful' description of me as a dedicated edit warrior with a combative style, and I question what type of response you imagined that that would elicit. Tewfik^Talk 08:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

(Pasted from my talk): Unfortunately, I found myself in a situation on February 21 where I was writing a response to GabrielF's explanation of Tewfik's revert. Sorry, I found that odd. Should I not have? I'm also sorry this has now escalated to wild personal attacks. In any case, I guess the first thing is to see what checkuser says. Mackan79 17:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser request has been placed here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/GabrielF Mackan79 19:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tewfik -- Sorry about the report, and thanks for your civil response. You seem to have seen what raised my concern, and I appreciate that. Based on your response, I probably would have discussed the matter in more detail, but unfortunately the dialogue with GabrielF seemed to escalate the matter where a checkuser seemed necessary. Best, Mackan79 16:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

sockpuppetry

Hmmm... If we're actually the same person than why are we paying twice for our official Cabal membership cards? It seems like we should get a multiple-personality discount.

I'd bring this up with Jimbo but I have a sneaking suspicion that he's actually only a voice in my fusiform gyrus.

GabrielF 19:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Newer, secondary source versus older, primary source

Hey Tewfik. I noticed you changed the >530 citation back to 600, citing that the secondary source was newer than the primary source. I don't disagree with you per se on this point, but we need to be consistent. The same newer secondary source lists the Israeli military death toll at 120 (one more than the current article, which cites an older, primary source at 119), and the Israeli civilian death toll at 39 (four less than the current article, which again cites an older primary source at 43). I don't really care which way we go on this, but I think it's important we be consistent, in the interest of accuracy (and, to a lesser extent, neutrality). I'm going to update the Israeli military and civilian figures to also match the newer, secondary source, but I just wanted to give you a heads up. Cheers. — George Saliba ^[talk] 08:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Request help...

Hi. I don't seem to like the category I created [3]. Sorry. What is your concern about it? I was about to split it by creating a "Military operations involving Isreal and the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict" category for the more recent ones. There are so many military operations that it can be useful to split them. I also created this category [4]. I find separating out the battles useful from the larger "conflict" category. I have been trying to think of a good name for a Palestinian equivalent that doesn't use the word terrorism. Something alone the lines of "Palestinian militant operations and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" which could contain all Palestinian attacks both against civilians and military targets. This wouldn't replace any existing terrorism or massacre categories but rather collect all of the operations in one place. --HistoryBuff1983 05:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it is best to start with an equivalent category to "Battles involving Israel", how about "Battles involving Palestinian militants"? --HistoryBuff1983 05:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why you don't like the categories? I think they help. I see the templates and they are good too. Are you going to remove ever category I made? I was copying this category "Battles and operations of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War" and "Battles of the Yom Kippur War" in a way. --HistoryBuff1983 05:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing some of my mistakes. Sorry. I just realized I misspelled Jordan in this new category relations and I just found "Category:Nursing_schools_in_Palestine" with one entry which shouldn't have been there so I removed it. --HistoryBuff1983 06:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

reuters

look [here] amos 19:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

why is it needed to be used in an article to stand out? the line sais reuters is still hosting an image by hajj on it's website, and that is exactly what it is. i think i probably didn't understand you. amos 22:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Template:Asia topic

Please stop breaking the template. While you may be looking at a particular use of it where "the" is not required, in most cases it is vital. Warofdreams talk 01:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure, just check the examples on the talk page. Geography of the Palestinian territories makes sense as a link (although it is currently a redirect), Geography of Palestinian territories does not, and does not exist. This is the same for every use of the template. You can see exactly the same format for other countries with names which take the definite article, such as the Philippines. Warofdreams talk 03:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

But your revision isn't an actual example of the template in use. It's not used anywhere else to simply link to the national entities. Take a look at the talk page and the Wikipedia:Guidelines for "(Continent) topic" templates to understand how this template is used. Warofdreams talk 03:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel

Hi Threeafterthree, Unfortunately, your observation about conflict carrying over is often true, though WP generally lets us sort more out than not in the end. As for your compromise, I'm afraid it is has the same problem, since the same Arab Israelis that don't identify as Palestinians, don't identify as Palestinian people. It would be like labelling the population of N. Ireland Catholic or Protestant - neither fits both. That some Arab Israelis identify as Palestinian is represented in the text, but such a disputed description should not be applied across the board as a category (per policy). Cheers, and thanks for your help in any event. Tewfik^Talk 19:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Okie dokie. Thanks for the explaination. Cheers! --Tom 20:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in the discussion at Talk:Zionism and racism allegations

It is being considered to be moved back to Zionism and racism. I noticed you were the one who moved it to the "allegations", so I would be interested in hearing what you think on the matter. Thanks.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Free Spirits & Christianity

Hi Tewfik. I've done a massive redraft on the Brethren of the Free Spirit article. I was wondering if you wanted to put the Wikipedia 'Christianity' tag thing on it - or if not who I should bring it to the attention of? I would do it myself but I don't really know how. Hope this is ok.ThePeg 14:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Palestine election map.PNG

Tewfik. I corrected the category for the image. Category:Maps of the Palestinian territories is correct. Not Category:Maps of Palestine as you put it in twice now. Your edit summary was: "please don't create cats for single images when they can populate supercats".

There are multiple images in Category:Maps of the Palestinian territories. See the subcategories there. They have more images. Please learn more about image categorization. I have been categorizing many images with only a couple complaints. --Timeshifter 05:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said there are more images in the subcategories. Also, I just found many more uncategorized images that belong in the top level of the category. I am adding them now. --Timeshifter 05:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

See how wikimedia commons categorizes these maps:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_of_the_Palestinian_territories --Timeshifter 05:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of the images on the commons were already categorized in their present categories before I started categorizing them.

Many of the images belong in both of these categories:

Category:Maps of Israel

Category:Maps of the Palestinian territories

Where applicable the images are put in both categories. --Timeshifter 05:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Maps often cover more than one nation or territory. So both wikimedia commons and wikipedia have a long history of categorizing maps in multiple categories. --Timeshifter 06:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Maps are given various names by their uploaders. The maps are then used by other people on many different wikipedia pages. Those wikipedia pages concern different nations and territories. Thus the maps are categorized under multiple nation and territory categories. The maps are not owned by the original uploader, nor by the name the original uploader applies to the map. Oftentimes the uploader only puts the name of one nation in the image name. There is not room to put all the nation and territory names. It would make the image name too long. Category content includes the subcategories, too.--Timeshifter 06:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I am talking about both the filenames and the maps. The maps cover multiple nations and territories, and not just one nation or topic.--Timeshifter 06:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Your objection is clear to me. But it goes against a long history of wikipedia and wikimedia map categorization. I have been categorizing many maps. From other regions, too. As far as I remember I have had only 2 complaints. I went along with the other complaint. I disagree with your complaint.--Timeshifter 07:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Look at

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps

You will see that maps are often categorized under multiple categories representing the nations and territories covered by the map. --Timeshifter 07:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Buss Suicide Bombing West Jerusalem3.jpg

Yes, that wasn't a model of an explanatory deletion summary, it's true. I was closing Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 February 22 and deleted the image as part of that. The image should never have been uploaded here in the first place, as it came from AP. Associated Press makes it living from providing its subscribers and readers with informative content, enhanced by commercial photography. We cannot then take that photography, which they pay for and relicense, and use it to illustrate our articles and claim that there is no commercial impact. That is what I meant by "From information provider". Counterexample #5 at Wikipedia:Fair use mentions this explicitly. If you know of any other images like this, please do nominate them for deletion. Thanks. Jkelly 17:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

CSD

Before nominating a category as empty-cat, please ensure that it is empty. If you do not it will leave red-linked category on other pages. If you disagree with the tagging of en: pages for commons:'s media (e.g. Image:Hitt Egypt Perseus.png), please resovle that issue first. Deleting the category will not delete the en: media page, but will red-link it's cats (encouraging someone to recreate them). — xaosflux ^Talk 01:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I must be missing something, when I look at Category:Maps of the Palestinian territories it shows three entries: Subcat Category:Maps of Gaza Strip, subcat Category:Maps of the history of the Palestinian territories and media page: Image:Israel.png. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

As for the content dispute, I don't really want to get involved in it. I'm looking at this from a "Red-links encourage creation of a page for the red-link" POV. To that, deleting a category with inbound category links encourages someone else to recreate it. The same would go for subcategories that are uplinked to it. In that case I'd suggest either also nominating the sub-category, or editing the sub-category to remove the "parent" category. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think we need to recreate commons: cats here for media that isn't on here. The tags reffering people to the commons' categories can be put on the articles and or article categories. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Categories

As for Category:Maps of Gaza Strip, I think that as Image:Gz-map.png (the only local image) is public domain, it should be transwiki'd to commons: then deleted. Then there would be no need for this category here, and the other projects would benefit from another image. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And if the other images pages existed just to add it to a category here, they should be deletable as well, thus emptying the category. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)