User talk:Tznkai

RFCs

• WP:AERFC
• WP:Civility/Poll

We're way better at talking then doing.

--Tznkai (talk)

NB, have not forgotten about User:Buster7/Incivility, just been busy.

hope you make it back in time for chat on Sunday night

You've got some stuff on your desk I think that is worth looking at. — Ched :  ?  05:03, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Ohho?--Tznkai (talk) 15:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

David

Hi Tznkai, I've asked on WP:AN for some diffs showing clear violations of SOCK. As you're the blocking admin, would you mind providing some? I've taken a look myself but it's a lot to look through, and so far I'm not seeing anything conclusive. SlimVirgin 04:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Replied in appropriate thread. I have to catch a train if you still have concerns, but it eventually ends in general administrative discretion in dealing with editors indulging in inappropriate conduct that damages the working environment, with that damage done by sock puppetry.--Tznkai (talk) 04:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The rub

You wrote: "Try to do whatever on you can on Wikipedia that genuinely satisfies you." The problem is that some people are genuinely satisfied by fighting, arguing, and scheming. We have a preponderance of editors who, given the choice, would sooner comment on 100 dramas du jour than improve a single uncontroversial article. I think they are doing what satisfies them. MastCell ^Talk 18:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I like to think that people are, not so deep down, not actually satisfied by trolling, arguing, scheming and so on. That is admittedly a silly hope, but I do believe if everyone else ignores them when they're doing petty stuff the rest of us don't have to care.--Tznkai (talk) 18:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really talking about malicious trolling, which I agree is a fairly specialized taste. I'm thinking more about people who feel strongly about something, whether it's Climategate or the injustice of a specific block, and more than that - people who move on from crusading against one such injustice to another without ever contributing anything of real value. It doesn't make them bad people - it's just that their motivation here is to win a series of arguments or correct what they see as injustices, not to help build a useful reference work per se.

I think there is ample empiric substance to this view - for example, look at how hard it is to get committed reviewers at FAC, compared to how easy it is to get people to weigh in at great length on the latest Giano block or the latest fall-from-grace of the formerly high and mighty. Additionally, the Internet is full of people who like to argue with other people - it's the driving force behind most of the blogosphere - so it would be silly to discount that very human motivation as an element here.

Like you, I believe, and always have believed, that the only way to deal with this stuff is by ignoring nonsense. Anything else provides positive reinforcement. If we reward stable, mature content-building and ignore melodramatic outbursts and feuds, then we'll get more of the former and less of the latter. I try to model that behavior, and I think you probably do too, consciously or subconsciously, which is all we can do really. MastCell ^Talk 19:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

People love to argue, especially on the internet, and so do I really. In the end though, it feels pretty hollow, and I like to think I'm not alone in that feeling, and thats my message for folks at large. Want I want also want people thinking about, especially admins and ANI regulars is drawing a line between distasteful nonsense that can be ignored and the harm that can not. I'll worry about the line drawing itself later, i just want people aware of it.--Tznkai (talk) 19:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

You're talking about a sense of perspective, which is probably the single thing most sorely lacking on Wikipedia. MastCell ^Talk 22:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly a problem unique to Wikipedia though. I mean, the older I get the more I see WP as the rest of the world in a microcosm.--Tznkai (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's my line of work, but I have a totally different experience. In real life, I feel like I'm surrounded by reminders of what really matters. Here, I get to watch people create an ArbCom case over footnoted quotes or mdashes. MastCell ^Talk 22:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, more on that, its a problem thats gotten worse on Wikipedia the more important Wikipedia has become to people and the world at large. Probably an irreversible trend, but things would be better if people cared a bit less.

Also, really? I see the same pettiness, ego, need to argue, to be right, to put your stamp and two cents in, on different levels of minutia. How else could reality TV be so successful if it didn't reflect, however warped, the shenanigans in there homes and work places? WP drama looks downright reasonable compared to some of the extended family fights I've witnessed.--Tznkai (talk) 22:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Reality TV isn't reality, thank God. People watch it for the same reason that videos of car and airplane crashes get millions of views on YouTube. In real life, people who obsess and argue about minutiae get marginalized very fast. You can ignore them, or at least work around them. Here, persistence (what we would call tendentiousness) is de facto rewarded, because one agenda account devoted to promoting snake oil can easily drive off a dozen well-rounded editors who just come here to relax and improve a few articles. You can't marginalize or work around people like that on Wikipedia - you need to either concede the field, or spend 6 months working dispute resolution to try to get someone to notice them. MastCell ^Talk 22:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand

The object of my intervention is not "to help Nableezy". It's to give a play by play of what happened long before Nableezy was involved and what happened thereafter. I cannot understand why you would decide to unilaterally remove my comments here. If there is something that could use rephrasing, please let me know what it is and how to improve it. Tiamut^talk 10:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

It was a wall of text that started out by attacking a third party, and opened with the line: "Nableezy is being singled out once again." The natural conclusion is that 1. you were trying to help and 2. you were failing. Most AE responders I imagine are like me, in that they get annoyed by this thing. Imagine if you will, a court room, during a proceeding, which is going along as it does with the lawyers arguing back and forth, and then suddenly from the audience someone starts screaming at the top of their lungs, drowning out everyone else in length and volume, pointing fingers and throwing out accusations and broad assertions at someone else in the audience.

That, roughly, is how I see your intervention. In real courts, you'd be asked to quiet down, or removed, or even thrown in jail for contempt. Thankfully, we're not a court, and I'm not a judge, but I ask you to trust me on this basic cause effect analysis, whatever you are trying to get me to look at, you are inspiring me to do the opposite. I would not be surprised if others reacted the same.--Tznkai (talk) 10:35, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. I'm certainly not yelling. I understand your critique, but I believe its more than a little harsh. Strip my contribution of the commentary and just look at the diffs and the timeline. It becomes clear that there were problems at the AfD that preceded Nableezy's intervention. There are editors whose actions repeatedly evade scrutiny who should not have been behaving as they were and the issue should have attracted admin attention much earlier on. Forgive me for trying to point that out. Tiamut^talk 10:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

See, what you said right here? That would have been great. I would've phrased it like: "Nableezy is not to blame for the AFD going to hell. See X Y and Z." Whatever, short and sweet. You're right though, it was too harsh, and I do apologize. It appears I get punchy if I edit too late at night, so I'm going to catch up on sleep. Again, I apologize.--Tznkai (talk) 10:46, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the kinder approach and apology. I'm sorry too for my verbosity. I feel super guilty as it is given that Nableey was topic banned at AE after I filed a case against User:Cptnono which resulted in nothing happening, and here I am having deja vu all over again. Anyway, have a good sleep. Tiamut^talk 10:53, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you

I appreciate your very fair consideration of dates.

I got married a week after that topic ban and had no time to contest it.

There are other issues in this case. The original AC is probably best not poked too much.

Please leave room to consider impact on content (though obviously not content issues themselves).

I am impressed by your willingness to make, then change a decision.

My time is constrained for the next week.

I do not want to make a case against Kaldari.

I also do not have time to do so in the next three days (though that time would normally be fair)

May I also suggest, that it would look good for your decision if someone other than me, attempted to investigate my claim, giving that at least some appearance of due diligence.

It is this process that is adversarial, not me. If only others could attempt to represent the "point of view of the defendant" justice would be more obvious, and co-operation more likely.

I'll do what I can to assist your process. I care about content and co-operation as much you no doubt do.

Please attempt to consider that.

Please advise me where it is most appropriate for me to post, and where it is inappropriate for me to post.

Alastair Haines (talk) 05:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification AND amendment: Alastair Haines. Thank you. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

And please see User:Alastair Haines/Kaldari for just one small bit of evidence of the sort of content issue and behaviour involved. I stress, I am not making a formal complaint, nor offering anything close to a full analysis, like would be necessary to establish facts in the current case. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Today's witicism

This user thinks that when process is my servant, it can be the master of others. ^Bongo_matic 06:19, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Erm?--Tznkai (talk) 06:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a response to your userbox Pr-3. ^Bongo_matic 06:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm confused as to whether your making a joke of some sort, or you're picturing me as somewhat Machiavellian.--Tznkai (talk) 06:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm making a joke of some sort (not necessarily a terribly funny one)—hence the heading. ^Bongo_matic 06:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)