User talk:MMABot

MMABot v2.0 Discussions

Question about an edit

Why is the bot, in edits like this, adding underscores into the names of events? EdChem (talk) 13:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

If you look closely the bot is not adding underscores. Rather it is removing a renamed event as per WP:MMA guidelines: "use [[UFC 60]] instead of [[UFC 60|UFC 60: Hughes vs. Gracie]], use [[Dream 11]] instead of [[Dream 11|DREAM.11 Featherweight Grand Prix 2009 Final]]." --TreyGeek (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your response, but I suggest that the effect of the bot edit is to take a link that does not have underscores and replace it with one that does, which is hardly an improvement. I bet the MMA guidelines don't say to include underscores in event names. Further, if you look closely, you'll find that the changes were not altering the event name but were actually highlighting directions to the appropriate sections of a wikipage. The notion that an event name in a table is somehow better for having a hash mark (#) to show the wikipage section as if it were part of the event name, plus the inclusion of underscores, is questionable at best. I suggest that bot edits such as this, whilst no doubt well-intentioned, do not represent improvements to the encyclopedia. EdChem (talk) 01:22, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you have something constructive to offer? The bot is programmed to remove renamed event links by removing any text after the pipe in a wiki-link. You are the first person to complain about this behavior. What would you like to see the bot (or me) do in these rare cases where the event's article title is poorly constructed in the MMA record table. If you can provide a specific example of the original text and the final text, that would be much appreciated. --TreyGeek (talk) 02:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear you find my posts unconstructive, I thought pointing out a case where the bot is making a link arguably worse would be a useful contribution. I didn't suggest how to change the bot as I know little about programming, but if you want some suggestions, I'll try. Firstly, in a case like [[2011 M-1 Challenge Season#M-1_Challenge_XXIII:_Grishin_vs._Guram|M-1 Challenge XXIII: Grishin vs. Guram]], changing it to [[2011 M-1 Challenge Season#M-1_Challenge_XXIII:_Grishin_vs._Guram]], as the bot did, does not follow the guidelines you describe. Changing to [[2011 M-1 Challenge Season#M-1_Challenge_XXIII:_Grishin_vs._Guram|M-1 Challenge XXIII]] would be more appropriate. Secondly, if the bot must remove anything after the pipe link, it should also remove any underscores in the page link, for purely aesthetic reasons. Thirdly, if the link contains a # to direct to a section of a page, don't remove everything after the pipe because the actual redirect target should not be used as the name. My concern is simply that the original link M-1 Challenge XXIII: Grishin vs. Guram, or the alternative M-1 Challenge XXIII are both superior to the link 2011 M-1 Challenge Season#M-1_Challenge_XXIII:_Grishin_vs._Guram which the bot left. I hope you find this comment clear and constructive as I really am trying to be helpful. EdChem (talk) 12:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying. The difficulty as I see it is fixing the renamed event links as per the WP:MMA guidelines and catching or dealing with the rare cases of the M-1 Challenge Seasons (of which they exist for 2009-2011). I'm not sure there are any other set of events with the same situation. I cannot do the renaming you propose ("M-1 Challenge XXIII"), it would be impossible to know in advance what the renamed link should be and to get it right everytime. So, I think the options are:

1. Remove the renamed portion of the link and if any underscores exist in the article link, convert them to spaces. (Thus the link would be 2011 M-1 Challenge Season#M-1 Challenge XXIII: Grishin vs. Guram.)
2. Remove the renamed portion of the link and try to detect if a hashmark (#) exists in the article link. If there is one, remove everything after the hashmark. (The link would be 2011 M-1 Challenge Season.)
3. Try to detect if there is a hashmark (#) exists in the article link. If it does, skip it. (Thus leaving the link as M-1 Challenge XXIII: Grishin vs. Guram ([[2011 M-1 Challenge Season#M-1_Challenge_XXIII:_Grishin_vs._Guram|M-1 Challenge XXIII: Grishin vs. Guram]]).)

Is there an option you'd prefer to see happen? --TreyGeek (talk) 04:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Since there was never a final answer on how MMABot should handle this situation I've left this discussion on the talk page. Input is welcome from anyone. --TreyGeek (talk) 22:11, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

• Option 1 would be my preference. It eliminates the renamed link to comply with the MMA Wikiproject's guidelines and allows the user to see which omnibus article the event is in. --TreyGeek (talk) 18:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

MMABot v3.0 Task Proposals and Notes

This section, and its subsections, will discuss possible tasks for MMABot v3.0 and notes regarding the overall function of this version of the bot. MMABot v3.0 tasks will be performed separately from v2.0 (and v1.0) tasks. MMABot v3.0 is focused on standardizing results in MMA event articles.

Justification for v3.0

A discussion within the MMA WikiProject resulted in a consensus to use a standard table for displaying results in MMA event articles. MMABot counted 590 MMA event articles through Category:Years in mixed martial arts. There already exists a number of different formats for displaying event results and standardizing the formats across all nearly 600 articles is difficult to accomplish manually, even by a team of editors. This version of the bot will serve to simplify the tasks of this standardization where it is able to do so.

Notes

This section serves as a temporary holding place for notes as I try to determine if v3.0 is really possible. Comments from others are welcome.

• Section Headers: Of the 579 event articles examined by MMABot 83% (480) of them have a Results header (==Results== or == Results ==). About 3% (22) of the event articles have a third level results header (===Results===). This can help identify where the event results begin and where MMABot should start its work.
• {{MMAevent}} Template and Wikitables: Seven articles already make use of the MMAevent template. Seven more articles use the same format, but don't use the template (these can be converted to use the templates by MMABot). Six articles use wikitables with the same headers as 2012 in Super Fight League which should easily convertable. Nine articles use wikitables with the same headers as The Ultimate Fighter: Team Carwin vs. Team Nelson Finale which would be easily convertable. This leaves about 550 articles with potentially text based, but still somewhat structured, results (or some other format I didn't notice).

Handling of flags in results

I honestly do not know how MMABot should handle this case, so feedback is highly desired. I see two options:

1. Do not include flags following edits: When MMABot edits an article to adjust or reformat event results, it will not include flags in the final results. This would comply with Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts/Archive_8#RFC_on_WP:MMA.27s_use_of_Flag_Icons_in_relation_to_MOS:FLAGthe most recent RfC at the MMA WikiProject and some interpretations of MOS:FLAG.
2. Include flags where they exist: When MMABot edits an article to adjust or reformat event results, it will include any existing flags in the final results. This would leave the bot relatively neutral in a controversial situation.

Personally, unless there is an clear reason to choose option 1, I'll probably do development with option 2 in mind. It will allow MMABot the versatility to include flags should that be allowed in the future. Should flags not be desired, I should be able to adjust MMABot to simply not perform the task of moving flags over. Again, other opinions are welcome. --TreyGeek (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Event articles already using the new templates

When MMABot encounters an MMA event article that already makes use of the {{MMAevent}} templates it will check that bouts in the table are using the bout template (soon to be coming). If not, it will convert the table rows to use the bout templates. --TreyGeek (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Event articles with correct table format, but not the template

When MMABot encounters an MMA event article that has the correct table format but isn't using the {{MMAevent}} templates, it remove the formatting and insert the template in its place. It will also convert the table rows to use the bout templates. --TreyGeek (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Event articles with tables, but not correct format

When MMABot encounters an MMA event article that puts the results in a table format, but in the incorrect format, it will attempt to reformat the table using the {{MMAevent}} and bout templates. --TreyGeek (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Event articles in textual form

When MMABot encounters an MMA event article that puts the results in a textual format (most often the case, it will attempt to reformat the results using the {{MMAevent}} and bout templates. --TreyGeek (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

List of skipped articles

If MMABot skips an article because it cannot perform the correct operations on it (for whatever reason) it should, at minimum, notify the operator with a console message. It may also edit an article in it's user space (ie MMABot/Events_skipped) or in the MMA WikiProject space with a list of those articles it skips. More details and implementation of this task will be left for last. --TreyGeek (talk) 19:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Complaints from Willdawg

NO

I vote NO, with all the controversy going on right now, I don't want you programming something that will edit all the articles in the project. I don't think its appropriate for you to be doing this. I also strongly urge you not to try to use this unless you can get the entire group to give you the go ahead. Willdawg111 (talk) 06:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Personal talk page or bot for the MMA project

You can't have it both ways. If you are creating a bot to use for the MMAproject, then it belongs to the project and you don't have a right to control people's opinion. If this is a pesonal talk page then you don't have a right to use it on all of the articles of the project. Pick which one you are deciding to hold onto. The group hasn't come to a compromise that is satisfactory for everybody, so you have no buisness trying to change everything at this point. Willdawg111 (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Request on admin page

A request to temporarily block use of the MMAbot until a compromise can be obtained on formats and guidelines that are acceptable to the entire group has been place on the admin page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#IP_deleting.2Fchanging_navboxes. Willdawg111 (talk) 19:28, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:BOTCOMM

Can I draw your attention, please to the "Good Communication" section of the Bot Policy page, which says:

Users who read messages or edit summaries from bots will generally expect a high standard of cordiality and information, backed up by prompt and civil help from the bot's operator if queries arise. Bot operators should take care in the design of communications, and ensure that they will be able to meet any inquiries resulting from the bot's operation cordially, promptly, and appropriately. This is a condition of operation of bots in general. At a minimum, the operator should ensure that other users will be willing and able to address any messages left in this way if they cannot be sure to do so themselves. (emphasis added)

In light of this, I suggest that you stop deleting messages from editors who have concerns about your bot and address their concerns. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

If you look above, I have restored Willdawg's messages. He has raised no specific complaints other than I shouldn't be operating MMABot. I don't know how to respond to that kind of complain other than to say I have the support of a number of people in the MMA WikiProject to operate this bot and its tasks for v1 and v2 have been approved by the WP:BAG. If you have suggestions or guidance for me in regards to this issue I certainly welcome it. I've been asking at ANI for two days now at this thread for guidance as to how to deal with Willdawg and I have been ignored. --TreyGeek (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

At this, my only suggestions is that you respond to him as you just did to me, and to not remove his messages because it looks as if you're ignoring him. Obviously if, at some point, the discussion gets out of hand, that's a different matter. You might also address his somewhat more specific concerns on his AN/I posting. Best, Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed compromise

I will withdraw my objection to using the bot to edit tables, if you guys are willing to compromise on a couple minor issue. A couple other editors and I have a concern about tables ending up fluffed up and hard to read. I want 2 minor changes, I want the judges scorec in the comment section because it makes the columns easier to read. I want to eliminate the redunancy with KO's and TKO's. 95% of KO and TKO fights end with some sort of strikes, so it isn't necessary to add it. The only time it would be necessary is if its something out of the ordinary like a physician stoppage or not answering the bell. The font needs to be just a little bit bigger to make it stick out with all the colors that are being added.
How about it, are you guys willing to compromise on a couple minor details in order to get what you want on the big issues. Willdawg111 (talk) 21:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)