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Jonathan Cook

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A very well put together article of a freelance journalist, helped along by the subject himself (JonathanCook (talk · contribs)), but at the end of the day, unnotable. The basic information of Cook comes from his own website and nowhere else. I'm not sure this is a real person or just a pseudonym. Delete per WP:BLP. brew crewer (yada, yada) 02:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brewcrewer--
You write that he isn't notable but you don't provide any reasoning. You do, however imply that all of the information comes from a "website and nowhere else." With all due disrespect, may I point out the "notes" section of the article? Did you even click on any of the links? The man is a published author, for christ's sake! What more do you want?
--NBahn (talk) 03:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Calm down, brother. He has obviously been published. But biographical information solely originates from his own website. Thats why this well formatted article can be deceiving. The "notes" are basically a list of where he was published, and then repeated in the "works" and "further reading" sections.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brewcrewer—
Which section of WP:BLP do you believe calls for deletion of this article?
--NBahn (talk) 06:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep and suggest speedy closure WP:SNOW. Jonathan Cook is the author of several books and has written extensively for several leading European newspapers. I admit to being sceptic to the reasons for this AfD-nomination. The nominator has a very long history of editing several articles with a strong pro-Isreali WP:POV. I don't mean to assume bad faith by this, and I don't think the nominator will deny having a pro-Israeli POV. Nothing wrong with that. Many of us have different POVs and that's all fine as long as we edit in a responsible manner, and it is my experience that the nominatior usually does that, but the effort to remove the article on an author and journalist who is consistently critical of Israel makes the nominator's POV relevant in this case. Having published extensively on a very notable conflict in a number of very large newspapers and having published several books, Cook is certainly notable.Jeppiz (talk) 03:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Got sources?--brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but sources for what, if you'd care to specify?Jeppiz (talk) 04:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. First, I'm compelled to note that this is the first time I've ever seen a snow suggestion where -- other that the snow proposer -- there is unanimity in the opposite direction. Albeit, at the time a unanimity of one. As to the substantive issue, I don't see this fellow as sufficiently notable. Maybe one day. But not now.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:16, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Your note is noted. It is hardly unusual to see a snow suggestion as the first comment. The "unanimity", as you call it, was only the nominator's opinion, so calling it "unanimity" is at bit comical, if you excuse me. And if publishing four books on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and writing extensively about the same conflict for newspapers such as The Guardian, Le Monde is not notable, I wonder what is. My suggestion to keep as per WP:SNOW remains in place.Jeppiz (talk) 04:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)][reply]

I don't see any of the books as being notable in and of themselves, and therefore don't see them as conferring notability. Freelance journalists are a dime a dozen, and someone (him?) seeking to pull him up by his own bootstraps with quotes to his own website as to his uniqueness does little to compel me to find him notable. Not everyone who has written for notable newspapers is themselves notable, so that also doesn't do it for me. The article should also be stripped of the self-promotional material, if by any chance it is not deleted. But I see this as a delete.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed something curious. I believe the article mentioned that he authored four books in the lead, which was what you reflected. And Slim today changed that to "several" books "including ... (and then mentioning the only three I believe he authored)". But even his own website -- assuming it is accurate -- only mentions him as being the author of three books. I expect that the inflation of the number of books he authored was accidental, but in any event I've dialed the lead back to reflect that he authored three books.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree about the point of removing self-promotional material, some sections of the article as irrelevant (the part about him having a "perspective" different from others is pure WP:PEACOCK). Bad quality of an article, however, is an argument to improve it, not to delete it.Jeppiz (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My comment first spoke to the paucity of indicia of notability (IMHO). Full stop. My comment then, separately, suggested that if the article survives, the self-promotional maaterial be deleted. Yes, you are correct that the second point did not bear on notabilty--though I imagine that as with COI it might well lead to closer examination. And certainly none of the article that is supported solely by his own website (him graduating certain schools, w/honors, starting the Nazareth Press Agency -- which I redlinked as I look to perhaps build an article, but see for some reason someone has un-linked -- can be counted as helping his effort to demonstrate notability. Actually, they should probably be struck.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:20, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche--
As far as your "paucity of [indicators] of notability" are concerned, please allow me to direct your attention to two different reviews (here & here) of two different books. It didn't take me long at all to find them via Google; and I am absolutely convinced that I will find a plethora of printed sources from the library later today. He has had his books published by third party publishers and reviewed by independent reliable sources.
--NBahn (talk) 07:16, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I've just now only looked at the first "review". I'm not quite sure why you would view a "review" by a self-professed "pressure group of design professionals" as having any greater value than a review in a personal blog. Which for wikipedia purposes would generally be nil; it wouldn't even be appropriate for inclusion in the article, let alone as indicia of notablity. The second "review" appears to me to be not a review at all, but something he has written in which he mentions his book ... and what it appears in is also less than an RS; it is an individual's bog that describes itself by saying that it "contributes to the project of promoting contemporary radical* geography, a rich tradition of dissent and positing alternatives, a political movement to reclaim mind-spaces and virtual spaces, as well as public (physical) space". That also would fall somewhat short of RS criteria, I believe.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep as per User:Jeppiz.
--NBahn (talk) 04:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Electronic intifada, a personal website and reviews of his book by an assortment of Islamic fundamentalist sources are not sufficient for notability. So what if he lives in Nazareth? Lots of people do. --Gilabrand (talk) 04:58, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please refrain from libellous comments. Calling Oxford Journals Islamic fundamentalist, or calling Junge Welt the same thing, is just silly.Jeppiz (talk) 05:08, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Query: I couldn't find any mention of Oxford in there. Care to clarify? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:27, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pluto Press, which published his "oeuvre" is not exactly a respectable outfit (see article). Zed also leaves much to be desired. There are many freelance journalists in the world. Is every one of them worthy of a Wikipage? Maybe the answer is yes, considering how many pages Wikipedia devotes to amateur golfers and fictional characters in computer games.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:41, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - notability not established. I !voted delete before, but undid it whilst I investigated some the keep claims. They didn't pan out as far as I could tell. Crafty (talk) 05:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Craftyminion--
May I respectfully trouble you to please elaborate about what "didn't pan out"?
--NBahn (talk) 05:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially I'm of the same mind as the nominator and Epeefleche. Crafty (talk) 05:59, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Softy slushy delete - there's seems to be some effort put into the page, but I'm concerned that it feels like a good part of the effort was put into promotional and obscure details rather than anything else. I can't say that a video interiew he made with his friend counts as "further reading" or that 4 links to anti-Israeli mouthpieces (EI, Islamonline, and Nur) and one more marxist "publication" give confidence that this fellow is more than a not-really noteworthy Muqawama activist. There's many of those around writing here and there for newspapers but I wouldn't use EI, for starters, for anything other than EI responses to what reliable sources say about them. If there's normative sources to replace the current ones, I will certainly reconsider though. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:27, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Between the books, articles and various reviews, I see sufficient material. See a review in the New Statesman here. A review by Rami George Khouri is here. His reporting is discussed in Jamil Halil's book Where now for Palestine? here. He is reviewed in Le Monde Diplomatique here. A review in the Jordan Times is here. This seems to me notable. Also, I think it would have been appropriate for Brewcrewer to notify User:Tiamut or myself, who had recently mentioned this writer on another page where Brewcrewer was participating, before nominating the page for deletion. Jumping straight to a !vote, without apparent research, and pointing fingers at the subject, does not seem like the right way to proceed. Mackan79 (talk) 07:41, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I'm curious how many times someone needs to have pieces, letters etc published by The Guardian and how many books critical of Israel they need to publish before they become unnotable and/or not a real person. It would certainly help if we could get this decision prodecure into a guideline. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I wonder if I'm allowed to say anything here, given the topics the man tends to write about, but from a journalism perspective - which is of course the correct way to look at this, rather than letting the fact that he's an "anti-Israel" writer prejudge the issue - being a "radical" freelance writer is not a bar to notability per se (see John Pilger). Not everyone has to be Bob Woodward to merit a page here - indeed plenty of generalist and little-known BBC TV reporters for example, who have never published books or had their writings included in serious mainstream publications, have their own pages on Wikipedia. At the end of the day, if someone comes across his name or his work and wants more info on him, it seems a bit odd to argue that they can't come here to find it. Maybe solicit some views from the WP:JOURNALISM project? --Nickhh (talk) 10:32, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I completely concur that his views are irrelevant to this discussion. And I've myself even this month created a number of article on people who are generally felt to hold views similar to Cook's--so I resent the implications by some that people voting delete, as I did, must be doing so for that reason. If anything, it suggests to me that they are voting keep for the opposite reason. As to your other points, there is a sentiment in WP that just because other articles exists of lesser people he doesn't warrant one (the others, the thinking goes, have not been AFDd yet), and there is a standard--in some cases quite high-- for warranting a wikipedia page (you need only read through all the AfDs that deluge wikipedia at any point in time, and all the deletions that take place). --Epeefleche (talk) 11:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't mean to suggest that was necessarily the motivation for all or even any of those voting delete, I just said it shouldn't cloud the issue (and, to be honest, I suspect it is in part for some). I'm also conscious of WP:OTHERSTUFF - I should have expanded on my comment to make clear that I personally don't see a problem with having articles of that sort on fairly minor journalists. As noted, I don't see why WP shouldn't have brief, informative biogs on people who have a public profile, as long as they're not simply PR toss (or, alternatively, hatchet jobs). --Nickhh (talk) 11:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am under an I/P perma-ban, so I will not vote. However, this should never have come up, as the writer is well-published, has the requisite area degree from a highly reputable university, has authored several reputable books, and writes in-depth articles on the area published every other day. 'Non-notable' is plainly specious, or proof that pushing for deletion reflects either the usual writing off of sources one dislikes, or a complete lack of knowledge of the relevant literature on the I/P area. Cook's books and articles are cited in the RS secondary literature, and this alone proves that he is notable. I.e. in works by highprofile academics publishing for established university presses, like John J. Mearsheimer,Stephen M. Walt, Joel Beinin, Derek Gregory,Saree Makdisi, Lisa Hajjar (Associate Prof.Uni of California), Baylis Thomas (Professor of Political Science, University of Texas), Richard Bonney, Jeff Halper, Nur Masalha, David S. Sorenson (prof.US Air War College), Nigel Craig Parsons (Massey University), Vaughn P. Shannon (Assistant Prof. Uni of Northern Iowa), Paul McGeough (veteren I/P journalist and author), Antony Loewenstein (freelance journalist, but published by Melbourne University Press, which is a quality publisher), as well as Israelis of varying background, like Daniel Cil Brecher,Alice Rothchild, who have written well-reviewed books on the area. etc. There is no excuse for discussing deletion as an option, since the proposer did not do the required homework. I would ask those who have rushed to call for deletion to revise their vote in view of the documentable fact that JCook is frequently cited in secondary sources of high quality as an authoritative primary source.Nishidani (talk) 14:21, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 :::::::Hi.  I've just now only looked at the first "review".  I'm not quite sure why you would view a "review" by a self-professed "pressure group of design professionals" as having any greater value than a review in a personal blog.  Which for wikipedia purposes would generally be nil; it wouldn't even be appropriate for inclusion in the article, let alone as indicia of notablity.  The second "review" appears to me to be not a review at all, but something he has written in which he mentions his book ... and what it appears in is also less than an RS; it is an individual's bog that describes itself by saying that it "contributes to the project of promoting contemporary radical* geography, a rich tradition of dissent and positing alternatives, a political movement to reclaim mind-spaces and virtual spaces, as well as public (physical) space".  That also would fall somewhat short of RS criteria, I believe.--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 07:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 *'''Strong Keep''' as per [[User:Jeppiz]].<br>[[User:Nbahn|--NBahn]] ([[User talk:Nbahn|talk]]) 04:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 *'''Delete''' Electronic intifada, a personal website and reviews of his book by an assortment of Islamic fundamentalist sources are not sufficient for notability. So what if he lives in Nazareth?  Lots of people do. --[[User:Gilabrand|Gilabrand]] ([[User talk:Gilabrand|talk]]) 04:58, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 :*'''Comment''' Please refrain from libellous comments. Calling ''Oxford Journals'' Islamic fundamentalist, or calling Junge Welt the same thing, is just silly.[[User:Jeppiz|Jeppiz]] ([[User talk:Jeppiz|talk]]) 05:08, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 37: / Line 38: @@
 :I completely concur that his views are irrelevant to this discussion.  And I've myself even this month created a number of article on people who are generally felt to hold views similar to Cook's--so I resent the implications by some that people voting delete, as I did, must be doing so for that reason.  If anything, it suggests to me that they are voting keep for the opposite reason.  As to your other points, there is a sentiment in WP that just because other articles exists of lesser people he doesn't warrant one (the others, the thinking goes, have not been AFDd yet), and there is a standard--in some cases quite high-- for warranting a wikipedia page (you need only read through all the AfDs that deluge wikipedia at any point in time, and all the deletions that take place). --[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 11:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 ::I didn't mean to suggest that was necessarily the motivation for all or even any of those voting delete, I just said it shouldn't cloud the issue (and, to be honest, I suspect it is in part for some). I'm also conscious of [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]] - I should have expanded on my comment to make clear that I personally don't see a problem with having articles of that sort on fairly minor journalists. As noted, I don't see why WP shouldn't have brief, informative biogs on people who have a public profile, as long as they're not simply PR toss (or, alternatively, hatchet jobs). --[[User:Nickhh|Nickhh]] ([[User talk:Nickhh|talk]]) 11:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
+*'''Comment'''  I am under an I/P perma-ban, so I will not vote. However, this should never have come up, as the writer is well-published, has the requisite area degree from a highly reputable university, has authored several reputable books, and writes in-depth articles on the area published every other day. 'Non-notable' is plainly specious, or proof that pushing for deletion reflects either the usual writing off of sources one dislikes, or a complete lack of knowledge of the relevant literature on the I/P area. Cook's books and articles are cited in the RS secondary literature, and this alone proves that he is notable. I.e. in works by highprofile academics publishing for established university presses, like [[John J. Mearsheimer]],[[Stephen M. Walt]],  [[Joel Beinin]], [[Derek Gregory]],[[Saree Makdisi]], Lisa Hajjar (Associate Prof.Uni of California), Baylis Thomas (Professor of Political Science, University of Texas), [[Richard Bonney]], [[Jeff Halper]], [[Nur Masalha]], David S. Sorenson (prof.US Air War College), Nigel Craig Parsons (Massey University), Vaughn P. Shannon (Assistant Prof. Uni of Northern Iowa), Paul McGeough (veteren I/P journalist and author),  [[Antony Loewenstein]] (freelance journalist, but published by Melbourne University Press, which is a quality publisher),  as well as Israelis of varying background, like Daniel Cil Brecher,Alice Rothchild, who have written well-reviewed books on the area. etc. There is no excuse for discussing deletion as an option, since the proposer did not do the required homework. I would ask those who have rushed to call for deletion to revise their vote in view of the documentable fact that JCook is frequently cited in secondary sources of high quality as an authoritative primary source.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 14:21, 27 November 2009 (UTC)