Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 September 24

24 September 2016

David Merlini

David Merlini (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

From the closing admin's talk page:

Extended content

Hi Sandstein. I do not see sufficient discussion of the sources at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Merlini for a "delete" close. No one responded to my argument that: This 1,354-word article from The Budapest Sun and this 624-word article from Hetek are solely about David Merlini and contain detailed biographical coverage about him. They are not "routine notices or reviews about an unusual performer". According to a Greystone Books–published book, David Merlini in 2009 set a "world record for assisted breath-holding". That his world record was covered in a book strongly indicates it is not routine. Only DGG expressed an opinion about my sources. (It is unclear if Appable reviewed the sources.) None of the previous participants returned to the AfD discussion, so nothing can be concluded from their silence. That DGG and I disagree on the sources is insufficient for a "delete" close. I ask you to either reclose as "no consensus" or relist the debate since the AfD had been relisted only once. Cunard (talk) 18:06, 24 September 2016 (UTC) You have a point, and your sources do look good. But there was sufficient opportunity for discussion - the sources were available for more than a week, were presumably read by several people, and the only person to comment on them was unconvinced. I see no reason to believe that things would be any different after a relist.  Sandstein  21:25, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Sources mentioned in the AfD:

Extended content

Boyd, David Richard (2010). Dodging the Toxic Bullet: How to Protect Yourself from Everyday Environmental Health Hazards. Vancouver: Greystone Books. p. 16. ISBN 1553656210. Retrieved 2016-09-11. The book notes: In 2008, a remarkable world record for unassisted breath-holding was set by Germany's Tom Sietas, who held his breath for ten minutes and twelve seconds. In 2009, a world record for assisted breath-holding was set by David Merlini, who held his breath for more than twenty minutes while submerged in a tank full of water at a Formula 1 auto race in Bahrain. He gained an edge by breathing pure oxygen for half an hour before his stunt, thus super-oxygenating his blood. Unlike Sietas and Merlini, most people will past out after being deprived of oxygen for two or three minutes. After a brief period of unconsciousness, the heart will stop pumping. Within minutes, electrical activity in the brain will come to a halt because neurons are deprived of oxygen. This is the modern definition of biological death. Balázs, Eszter (2004-12-02). "Escaping his dreams". The Budapest Sun. Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. The article notes: Eszter Balázs meets David Merlini, the Hungarian escapologist who made everyone shiver when he was plunged into the Danube... encased in concrete. HE IS only 26-years old, but has already seen more danger and been in more perilous situations than most of us encounter in a lifetime. Could there be anything worse that suffocating, being burnt alive or being eaten by piranhas and sharks? For David Merlini, such risks are selfimposed and commonplace. Defeating them is his profession - a typical day in the office. "This is my job, my life," the young escapologist said in answer to a question about what motivates him to encase himself in concrete and ask to be lowered into the Danube. In fact, this very job almost cost him his life. But still there is no better explanation for the whys. Merlini simply dreams up a challenge and then realizes it, moving from one death-defying situation to another. ... Born to an Italian father and a Hungarian mother, and raised from the age of three in Italy, Merlini was interested in the structure of the locks that he so skillfully dismantled. When he one day was given an illusionist's kit, his future career was founded. Remote-opening locks, electronic constructions and smoke machines were handmade in Merlini's laboratory. Electro-shocks were part of the daily routine, he added. Ten years later Merlini enrolled in night classes at the famous illusionist training institution, the Circolo Amici della Magia of Turin. "Lessons took place starting at 9pm as the students all had daytime jobs," Merlini remembers. "One night I was sitting in the library of the CADM reading about the great escapologist Houdini -born in Hungary as Erik Weiss - and I found that I was born exactly 52 years after his death at the age of 52 in 1926." ... His second fishy adventure involved piranhas: aired on the music channel MTV, Merlini was strung up on an iron cross and then lowered, upside down, into an aquarium full of the predatory fish. He was nibbled a bit, but escaped. "I am not afraid during action, it is more before and after," he said. When he was lowered into the Danube this August, the worst moments were those when he was just at the level of the river. "This river floats by at between 6.5 - 7km/h. A cold and mighty flood that just makes you feel very, very small." He spent three and a half minutes at the bottom of the Danube before he was back on the surface again, this time having escaped a concrete cube that he had spent 11 hours in previously while it set. Five million people saw the "production", he proudly informed me. "Illúzió vagy titkos tudomány?". Hetek (in Hungarian). 2004-09-03. Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help) The article notes: A tanévkezdés előtti napra világraszóló produkciót hirdetett meg David Merlini huszonhat éves illuzionista. Budapesten, a Magyar Tudományos Akadémia előtt az önmagát „a világ legfiatalabb szabadulóművészének” tituláló olasz-magyar származású Merlinit egy akváriumba engedték, majd rázúdítottak négy tonna betont. A betonba öntött férfit tíz órával később egy daru segítségével a Lánchídról a Dunába eresztették. Merlini jó két perccel később jelzőfénnyel a kezében felbukkant a víz színén. Az élő televíziós közvetítést kétmillióan nézték végig. David Merlini a múlt század leghíresebb, szintén magyar származású illuzionistája, Harry Houdini reinkarnációjának tartja magát. Egy nemzetközi hírű szakember, Rudy Steffish szerint Merlini „a harmadik évezred legnagyobb szabadítója”. From Google Translate: The day before the school year starts on the day the world David Merlini announced a twenty-six-year-old illusionist. Budapest, in front of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in itself Merlinit Italian-Hungarian descent, "the world's youngest szabadulóművészének" tituláló allowed an aquarium and rázúdítottak four tons of concrete. The man poured concrete ten hours later, a crane lowered the Golden Gate Bridge into the Danube. Merlini good two minutes later, the lights turned up his hand upon the water. The two million people watched live television. David Merlini most of the last century, also Hungarian-born illusionist, Harry Houdini reincarnation hold up. An internationally renowned expert Rudy Steffish according to Merlini "in the third millennium largest Savior." "Chilly water beats record attempt". The Daily Telegraph. Australia. 2007-10-11. Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. The article notes: LOS ANGELES: He had the water tank, the handcuffs and even the hooded wetsuit. But Hungarian escape artist David Merlini just didn't have the ability to withstand cold water yesterday when he failed to break the world record for the longest time underwater without air. Setting out to beat a time of 8 minutes, 55 seconds, he abandoned his attempt after just 1 minute and 12 seconds due to the chilly water temperature. ... Merlini's capitulation stunned fans, who recalled his amazing past feats -- one of which included, ironically, being frozen inside a huge block of ice. He has also been buried in concrete and has escaped from a rocket's demolition. Merlini first mastered the art of escape in Hungary in 1995. "New Houdini wannabe escapes from burning car". Deseret News. 1998-10-30. Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. The article notes: A 20-year-old escape artist who wants to be the next Harry Houdini has performed his greatest death-defying feat ever, emerging unscathed after being handcuffed inside a burning car. David Merlini performed the escape Thursday in Budapest. He said he models himself after Houdini, a native Hungarian who migrated to the United States. Houdini thrilled crowds with his improbable escapes until his death in 1926. Merlini was handcuffed to the steering wheel of a white Mercedes. The doors were shut, the car covered with jelly gasoline and set on fire as it was hoisted by a giant crane. It was dropped from 66 feet. "A stunt to take your breath away". mX. 2007-10-11. Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. Cary, Tom (2009-04-27). "Motor sport: Intense heat fails to derail Button". Irish Independent. Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. The article notes: The afternoon had begun in bizarre fashion when F1 commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone, Richard Branson and other VIPs gathered on the home straight to watch a Hungarian escape artist by the name of David Merlini break the world record for holding his breath underwater. Submerged in a Perspex tank, Merlini managed 21mins and 29secs before being carried out virtually unconscious, prompting Ecclestone (78) to totter towards him to offer his congratulations. Merlini, no doubt deprived of oxygen, planted a smacker on the diminutive maestro's forehead. Leporatti, Claudia (2016-06-24). "UNGHERIA: Il mago della fuga David Merlini apre il Museo di Houdini". East Journal (in Hungarian). Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help) The article notes: In un’altra epoca, un altro prodigio: a 4 anni colleziona lucchetti e manette, a 13 già si esibisce con un numero tutto suo. Record mondiale di apnea con 21 minuti e 29 secondi (2009), lui è David Merlini, di professione escapologo. Siamo a Budapest, lato Buda, nel quartiere del castello, dove poche ore fa Merlini ha aperto il museo “The House of Houdini”. Noi di East Journal lo visitiamo accompagnati dal David in persona e non possiamo fare a meno di raccontarvi anche la sua, di storie, quella dell’uomo che si è fatto imprigionare in un blocco di ghiaccio per uscirne dopo 33 ore, davanti a mezza Budapest riunita per lui nel Piazzale degli Eroi. Nato a Budapest nel 1978 da padre toscano, David Merlini ha vissuto a lungo in Italia, a Torino, prima di tornare in Ungheria per debuttare con i suoi spettacoli, che oggi lo portano in tutto il mondo. Nel 2007 è stato premiato come “Best Escape Artist” agli World Magic Awards di Los Angeles, gli Oscar della magia. Due anni fa, durante la produzione americana “Houdini”, girata a Budapest, ha insegnato all’attore Adrien Brody (anche lui ungherese, di origine) a trattenere il respiro e ad evadere dalle manette, lavorando come consulente per la miniserie premio Oscar. Nel 2015 è stato protagonista di uno show in memoria di Houdini per la chiusura di Expo 2015, a Milano. From Google Translate: In another era, another prodigy: 4 years collects padlocks and handcuffs, to 13 already performs with a number of her own. World record of apnea with 21 minutes and 29 seconds (2009), he is David Merlini, the escapologo profession. We are in Budapest, on the Buda side, in the castle district, where a few hours ago Merlini opened the "The House of Houdini" museum . We at East Journal visit it accompanied by David in person and we can not help but tell her also, the stories, the man who became imprisoned in a block of ice to get out after 33 hours, in front of half-Budapest gathered for him in Heroes' Square. Born in Budapest in 1978 by Tuscan father, David Merlini has long lived in Italy, in Turin, before returning to Hungary to debut with its shows, which now carry him around the world. In 2007 he was honored as "Best Escape Artist" at the World Magic Awards in Los Angeles, the Oscars of magic. Two years ago, during the American production "Houdini" , filmed in Budapest, he taught actor Adrien Brody (who was also Hungarian, source) to hold your breath and escape from handcuffs, working as a consultant for the Oscar-winning miniseries. In 2015 was the protagonist of a show in memory of Houdini for the closing of Expo 2015 in Milan. László, Szabó G. (2015-09-20). "Külföldre viszi mutatványait David Merlini". Új Szó (in Hungarian). Archived from the original on 2016-09-11. Retrieved 2016-09-11. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help) The article notes: Tíz éve nem látta a magyar közönség, tíz éve nem is nyilatkozott David Merlini, a világszerte ismert és elismert, édesanyja révén magyar szabadulóművész. Hivatását azóta sem adta fel, a világ különböző pontjain mutatja be lélegzetelállító produkcióit. From Google Translate: Ten years ago, the Hungarian public has not seen for ten years not commented David Merlini, a well-known and recognized by the Hungarian mother szabadulóművész. He has not given up his profession, shown around the world in a breathtaking performances.

The closing admin wrote "the sources were available for more than a week, were presumably read by several people, and the only person to comment on them was unconvinced". When one editor lists sources and another editor disagrees that those sources establish notability, that is "no consensus". Because AfD is a discussion rather than a vote, that several other people "presumably" read those sources but declined to explain their thoughts about them in the AfD does not make the consensus "delete".

Overturn to no consensus or overturn to relist.

Cunard (talk) 21:52, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

• It is a fallacy to presume that the sources available for a week were read, when they may or may not have been read.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

• Reclose I can't tell what the decision was from the closing or the subsequent discussion.  What were the WP:DEL-REASONS for the deletion?  Without knowing why the article was closed as delete, it is difficult for editors to know how to fix problems.  Were !votes taken down?  If not, why not?  My quick analysis without access to the article is that the WP:DEL8 argument raised after the nomination was resolved.  The WP:DEL14 raised in the nomination was supported with a 2nd suggestion to Incubate, but was not resolved.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

• Unscintillating (talk · contribs), would you clarify what you mean by "reclose"? Is that a "relist" or an "overturn" or something else? Cunard (talk) 19:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• I was thinking of something that includes a vacate but leaves a relist as an option, but after seeing the state of the article in the Google cache, I feel that this article should not go back to mainspace.  I think the nominator was right on target and should be sustained, although I still can't see the talk page of the article.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:13, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn to Delete as per WP:DEL14, with incubate on request  As stated previously, the WP:DEL8 argument raised after the nomination was resolved.  The argument of "extremely promotional", a WP:DEL14/WP:NOT argument, was the problem raised in the nomination, but was never again discussed.  As per WP:NOQUORUM, "If a nomination has received no comments from any editor besides the nominator...Common options include...closing in favour of the nominator's stated proposal".  While the community rejects notability-based NO-QUORUM deletions, the deletion here is a WP:NOT deletion.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:13, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• Would you clarify how the article in the Google cache violates WP:NOT? Why do you feel that "after seeing the state of the article in the Google cache, I feel that this article should not go back to mainspace"? Cunard (talk) 22:21, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• It is true that the nominator has not provided a WP:DEL-REASON or wikilinked to the WP:NOT policy, but I think that the phrase "extremely promotional" at least suggests WP:DEL14 and WP:PROMO, whose point 5 reads,. 

5. Advertising, marketing or public relations. Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery.

Are you able to look at the Google cache and see writing that is not "objective and unbiased style, free of puffery"?  I think that much is objective.  For me there is also a subjective component, perhaps harder to quantify, with which reading the paragraph that starts "Merlini has performed several..." gives me physical discomfort due to lack of objectivity.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:27, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

The writing can be improved. For example, one sentence I would delete is "David Merlini's live TV shows broke all current ratings records in 2004 and 2005" because it is unsourced. Once that sentence is removed, when I read the article in the Google cache, I do see writing that is of an "objective and unbiased style, free of puffery".

I consider such defects very minor and easy to address. Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required and Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Surmountable problems.

The article said, "Merlini has performed several high-tech stunts such as being launched in a rocket, embedded in a block of solid concrete then lowered into the Danube, or frozen with liquid nitrogen."

I do not see anything promotional about "Merlini has performed several". Merlini's stunts are performances so "perform" is an acceptable verb to use. How would you rephrase that sentence?

Cunard (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• Cunard's position is quite arguable, and it's plausible that the reason so little attention was paid to the sources he presents is because participation at AfD these days is so low. Would a fresh listing attract some more substantive comments? It's worth a shot, although I fear that Sandstein might be right and it could well go by without anyone bothering at all. I'm afraid the root problem----lack of editors----is getting worse and we'll see more and more of these, with flaky decisions coming out of almost unattended discussions.—S Marshall T/C 10:31, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• It's worth a shot, although I fear that Sandstein might be right and it could well go by without anyone bothering at all. – that could happen (but likely will not because of the increased attention from this DRV). I differ from Sandstein in that if no one bothers to comment, "no consensus" rather than "delete" should be the correct close. Cunard (talk) 19:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion -- I followed the AfD although I did not !vote as the area of entertainers is not of strong interest to me. I reviewed the additional sources, but they looked like "human interest" stories and adding them would result in an article on a subject of passing significance. I'd day that it was a case of WP:TOOSOON. If the discussion is reopened, I would probably !vote delete. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:25, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• DRV analyzes the consensus in the discussion. Two editors, DGG and I, commented about the sources and differed on whether the sources established notability. Do you believe that is consensus for deletion? Cunard (talk) 19:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• There was also an !Vote from editor Muffled Packeted: "Equally, he has no significantly-sized fanbase, won no major accolades, and the only contribution he has made- holding his breath- is neither "'unique, prolific or innovative."" K.e.coffman (talk) 20:03, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• relist or overturn to NC There may be been a TNT issue here, but in the face of actual sources, there is no consensus to ignore them. Hobit (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• Hobit (talk · contribs), regarding the TNT issue, here is the Google cache of the article. I don't think that is TNT. What about you? Cunard (talk) 19:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• It's not great prose, but it's not a TNT case either IMO. Hobit (talk) 20:51, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn to "no consensus" or relist. Resolved promotionalism isn't a reason for deletion, cf. DEL4, and notability is not judged based on the content of the article, see ARTN, thus, the nominator's vote should have been disregarded as illogical and "flatly contradict[ing] established policy . . . ." WP:CLOSE § Consensus. Similarly, John Pack Lampert's boilerplate "non-notable [adjective]" vote "show[s] no understanding of the matter of issue." That leaves three reasoned votes: Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and DGG voting for deletion and Cunard supporting retention, and a 2–1 split is no consensus. No shade to the closer. Rebbing 21:28, 25 September 2016 (UTC)