Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Malcolm Kendrick: Difference between revisions

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m Still wasn't far enough (I'm probably ec'ing somebody right now... sorry!)
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*'''Keep'''. As my final contribution to the discussion, I’d like to point out that there are many comments on here calling for Kendrick’s deletion that are allegedly based on his lack of notability because he is not discussed by established mainstream medical sources, but there is a basic problem with this premise. It is the equivalent of saying the original civil rights movement in the US has no notability because it wasn’t embraced by the newspapers or government of the day, or that the anti-apartheid movement had no notability because it wasn’t recognised by the South African government. The first rule for institutions dealing with any kind of contentious or controversial subject is that it should not be given ‘the oxygen of publicity’. In fact, many of the comments on here are quite openly advocating deletion of Kendrick’s entry purely on the grounds of his opinions, including, ironically, the original recommendation for deletion by Skeptic from Britain; they make no real mention of his notability. If an institution does not approve of an upstart, renegade, or even a simple doubter, what does it do? It closes ranks and ignores the outsider. It’s not conspiracy theory to suggest that Kendrick is not validated by scientific and medical institutions simply because they don’t ''want'' to validate him. It’s just a basic fact of how institutions work. Why ''would'' they validate him, when he spends all his time questioning their position and poking holes in their current research/ideology? Given, therefore, that this ''cannot'' be a level playing field by its very nature, then notability must, surely, be established by other parameters – such as is he well-read? Has he had his books reviewed in national newspapers? Are his opinions sought by other researchers who do not agree with the current ideology? Are his books commonly and readily available, published by mainstream publishing houses, well-known, well-reviewed on Amazon? What are his current Amazon rankings? Do any other authors/writers/bloggers discuss his books or ideas? In other words, is he a notable public figure? Have people heard of him? Is he read and discussed in places where being a ‘conscientious objector’ is acceptable? - basic indicators that he is not some amateur crank in his basement talking to four people on the dark web. He meets all these standards for notability and, given that he is the aforementioned ‘conscientious objector’, then these are the only ways to establish his notability. You cannot judge someone who ''purposefully'' sets himself outside the mainstream as lacking in notability because he is outside the mainstream. He is beaten before he starts by that criteria. I don’t want to cite all the hackneyed Galileos of history, but it is nevertheless true that people who question the ‘ideas du jour’ in any field are never welcome inside the cosy circle of respectability, so notability cannot possibly be established within those parameters. Given this, I feel his entry should stay and be edited to include all his work to give a fuller picture of the man. I see no reason why it shouldn’t be edited to fully elucidate the contentious nature of his opinions so that readers are fully aware of just how much of his thought is outside the mainstream. That way a complete picture can be given, and populist notability, plus any shortcomings of notability within current medical orthodoxy, can be established in full view of the reading public. [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 21:43, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
===[[:Malcolm Kendrick]]===
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:{{la|Malcolm Kendrick}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Malcolm Kendrick|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2018 December 2#{{anchorencode:Malcolm Kendrick}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{int:dot-separator}} <span class="plainlinks">[https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick Stats]</span>)
:({{Find sources AFD|Malcolm Kendrick}})
Malcolm Kendrick is a fringe figure who agues against the [[lipid hypothesis]]. He denies that blood cholesterol levels are responsible for heart disease and in opposition to the medical community advocates a high-fat high-cholesterol diet as healthy. Problem is there is a lack of reliable sources that discuss his ideas. His book ''The Great Cholesterol Con'' was not reviewed in any science journals. Kendrick is involved with the [[The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics]], I suggest deleting his article and redirecting his name to that. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 20:29, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Scotland|list of Scotland-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:CAPTAIN RAJU|<span style="font-family: Bradley Hand ITC;">'''CAPTAIN RAJU'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:CAPTAIN RAJU|(T)]]</sup> 22:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Authors|list of Authors-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:CAPTAIN RAJU|<span style="font-family: Bradley Hand ITC;">'''CAPTAIN RAJU'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:CAPTAIN RAJU|(T)]]</sup> 22:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
* '''Delete''' a [[WP:BLPFRINGE]] currently only sourced to primary sources; I find a few articles by him on other sites but nothing about him. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 23:49, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' the only mention of the Dr's opinion regarding statins in the main page is the statement "documents what the author perceived as the misguided use of statins in primary care". This appears to be an ad hominem attack "fringe figure" against the Dr due to disagreement with his very well documented premise in his book. The arguments and hypotheses he uses are well-researched and supported by a number of independent clinicians. Attempts to delete his entry amount to scientific censorship and should be resisted. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Abamji|Abamji]] ([[User talk:Abamji#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Abamji|contribs]]) 21:13, December 3, 2018 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign -->
*:'''Comment''' Those are not valid reasons. There is a lack of reliable sources that mention Malcolm Kendrick so that is why his article at Wikipedia should be deleted. But yes he is a fringe figure (only an extreme minority of researchers doubt the [[lipid hypothesis]], mainstream science does not take him seriously (no academic journal reviewed his book etc). See the bottom section on the [[The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics]] for criticism. I just went over Kendrick's personal website, he is basically a conspiracy theorist. He thinks a low-carb high-fat diet with massive cholesterol levels is healthy and the medical community and government are trying to supress this fact. You talk about "censorship" so you are probably a fan of his. You edited my comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick&diff=871852904&oldid=871852090] and wrote "He is a Gallileo of our times, saying what others fear to say". This is a sign of a conspiracy theorist, not science. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 22:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' the article subject's book being "reviewed in any science journals" is certainly not a prerequisite for the article subject possibly being notable by Wikipedia's standards. [[User:MPS1992|MPS1992]] ([[User talk:MPS1992|talk]]) 22:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' Here is only one of the most recent research papers supporting Dr Kendrick's questioning of the lipid hypothesis, indicating the absence of link between consumption of high-saturated fat dairy foods and heart disease. Whether academic journals reviewed Dr Kendrick's books is neither here nor there; their purpose is to communicate recent research to the lay community. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/108/3/476/5052139?guestAccessKey=c18b1acf-2778-42b9-8d72-878c0e86cdbf [[User:Anarchie76|Anarchie76]] ([[User talk:Anarchie76|talk]]) 22:22, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
:: "Here is only one of the most recent research papers supporting Dr Kendrick's questioning of the lipid hypothesis" - The purpose of this discussion is not to discuss the lipid hypothesis, it is to discuss Kendrick. The paper you cited does not mention Kendrick. There are no peer-reviewed science papers that mention Kendrick's research in detail. His article should be deleted per lack of reliable sources. Let's see what other users think. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 22:33, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' The arguments to delete the book stem from citing a "majority of researchers" supporting a position. Unfortunately, that is not how science should evaluate the position of critics. It is open secret that the positions advocated by professional and scientific groups in favor of the lipid hypothesis are very, very, weak. Even within the last few years the AHA could only cite observational studies and highly confounded experimental interventions in favor of its advocacy of the lipid hypothesis. And the problematic nature of this fact is clear to anyone who has a modicum of training in statistics. For wikipedia to delete this entry means it has sided with arguments that are only based on appeals to authority and not scientific evidence. And no, citing consensus in a field where conclusions are nominally based on experimental evidence is not "scientific". In some disciplines, where experimental evidence is impossible to get that may be unavoidable, and there are clearly difficulties in obtaining experimental data with human subjects but the solution to that problem is not to rush to judgement or to side with those that would.[[User:Billwrlhopkins|Billwrlhopkins]] ([[User talk:Billwrlhopkins|talk]]) 22:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Health and fitness|list of Health and fitness-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 22:23, 3 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Food and drink|list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 22:36, 3 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
:<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Medicine|list of Medicine-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 23:01, 3 December 2018 (UTC)</small>

*'''Comment''' Abamji, Anarchie76, Billwrlhopkins have hardly any edits on Wikipedia but all voice the same conspiracy theory talk, two of these users were inactive on Wikipedia for months. I think this is a case of [[WP:MEAT]]. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 22:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' Skeptic from Britain, you stated that 'his book ''The Great Cholesterol Con'' was not reviewed in any science journals'. Here is one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043330/. As for my contributions to Wikipedia, they are very variable in frequency, depending on my workload, and many take place in other language versions. Your slur is unjustified. [[User:Anarchie76|Anarchie76]] ([[User talk:Anarchie76|talk]]) 23:04, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' This is meat-puppetry/socking. I have never seen anything like this before. An admin please sort this out. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick talk]
**{{userlinks|Miacol43}}
**{{userlinks|Anarchie76}}
**{{userlinks|GS120748}}
**{{userlinks|Paul W Ellis}}
**{{userlinks|Louis.Dia}}
**{{userlinks|RockyBob}}
**{{userlinks|Hellovitch}}
**{{userlinks|Ivor Cummins}}
:[[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 23:17, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' The reason for proposing Kendrick's deletion appears to be on the content of his books, rather than on his written contribution to the cholesterol debate. But the entry is not about the cholesterol hypothesis it is a biographical entry, and as such it is an accurate and balanced statement of the man’s work. His books are bestsellers (449 reviews on the Great Cholesterol Con on Amazon). These reading figures validate him as being of public interest and therefore his entry is justified simply as a public figure. As for the books’ content, the cholesterol hypothesis is exactly that, a hypothesis. Given this, ANY opinion, short of cardiovascular disease being the work of fairies, is legitimate. Kendrick doesn’t have a specific opinion on what causes CVD, his blogs on the subject make that VERY plain (he is currently at part 52 or some such on ‘the causes of heart disease’ – this does not indicate a man who has a fixed idea of cholesterol’s role in CVD); what he does have an opinion on is that current scientific data does not fully support the cholesterol hypothesis and there is a lot of very contradictory evidence. Most researchers in the field would admit that there is contradictory evidence and the cholesterol hypothesis is far from water-tight, it’s just a best guess - hence the use of the word ‘hypothesis’ in its title. If scientists and writers are going to have their entries deleted simply because they question the current thinking then every researcher in every branch of science, particularly the outspoken or controversial ones, must also, for the sake of uniformity and fairness, have their entries deleted, and Wikipedia should make it clear that it does not contain up-to-date biographical detail of public figures but only the biographical detail of mainstream figures with no controversy surrounding their work. [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 23:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)<small>— [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Pirate hamster|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>
:: You have hardly any edits on Wikipedia and your last edit was 17 March 2011. How did you find this deletion discussion? Has Malcolm Kendrick advertised it to his associates? [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 00:48, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

::: What relevance does the number of edits and the date of them have to the topic of this proposed deletion? I take it Malcolm Kendrick's proposed deletion is not for his edit history? [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 04:14, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::It suggests you're a sock or meatpuppet, which you are. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

::::: I created a sock-puppet in 2011 so that I could take part in this discussion in 2018? Now, that's what I call forward-planning. Leave the compound.[[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 06:11, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::It's happened many times. We call them ''sleepers''. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 06:15, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::: The fact that you "call them sleepers" merely reveals a predilection for private buzz words to bolster your biases. A pet name doesn't lend a prejudice more validity just because you all agree to use it.[[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 19:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' - author of several books, and a 5 second google news search show mentions in Guardian and Telegraph [https://www.google.com/search?biw=1600&bih=789&tbm=nws&ei=0cMFXNnBCcaa_QaSsanADw&q=%22malcolm+kendrick%22&oq=%22malcolm+kendrick%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...10333.11665.0.12195.2.2.0.0.0.0.98.187.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.98...33i299k1.0.t9ySx9NAiFc], and many other news sources. Deletion request seems to be more of a response to Kendrick's stance which is critical to the mainstream, but notability is pretty clear here. [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 00:06, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

:: You haven't been active on Wikipedia since 7 May 2015 yet you turn up here today. The socking and meat-puppetry on here has gotten out of hand. Other new accounts are still leaving comments here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick talk] [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 00:32, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::: Perhaps you can address my substantive points rather than attacking my lack of activity? [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 04:42, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:::: Yes there is some newspaper coverage, but this sets up a false balance, the Guardian article [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/23/statins-not-wonder-drug-major-diseases] was written by Kendrick himself and the others only mention Kendrick in a single sentence or two. In the Telegraph article[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/06/12/high-cholesterol-does-not-cause-heart-disease-new-research-finds/] the British Heart Foundation disputed a study which Kendrick co-authored and claims was "robust". But none of these articles are specifically about Kendrick. [[Aseem Malhotra]] an associate of Kendrick has reliable sources on his article and newspaper coverage. Kendrick lacks reliable sources that discuss his ideas in any detail. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 05:21, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' - the article subject has blogged on the topic of article deletion. See ''[https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/12/03/dr-malcolm-kendrick-deletion-from-wikipedia/ Dr Malcolm Kendrick – deletion from Wikipedia]''. -- [[User:Longhair|Longhair]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Longhair|talk]]</sup> 01:03, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

*This is censorship against Dr. Malcolm Kendrick. Skeptic from Britain probably works for a pharmaceutical company, he should be banned. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Support from Malcolm Kendrick|Support from Malcolm Kendrick]] ([[User talk:Support from Malcolm Kendrick#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Support from Malcolm Kendrick|contribs]]) 01:05, 4 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— [[User:Support from Malcolm Kendrick|Support from Malcolm Kendrick]] ([[User talk:Support from Malcolm Kendrick|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Support from Malcolm Kendrick|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>

*'''Comment''' - What a load of Bollux! @malcolmken is one of the most knowledgeable physicians out there explaining the truth about Cholesterol & diet heart hypothesis to the general public- deserves a knighthood at least 😡 <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/139.230.253.14|139.230.253.14]] ([[User talk:139.230.253.14#top|talk]]) 02:45, 4 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

*'''Comment''' Skeptic from Britain is making a great deal of noise in this discussion about sock-puppets, criticising other contributors' edit history and debating the validity of new users while criticising long-time users, like myself, for being around too long! This strikes me as not only irrelevant (and deflective) but inflammatory. As for his demand: “How did you find this deletion discussion? Has Malcolm Kendrick advertised it to his associates?” it should be pointed out that Kendrick is a popular author (this, after all, is what we are allegedly debating!), who has a lively blog where he talks about not only the science of cardiovascular disease, but also about the state of research and free discussion in medicine. Given that this is the essential nature of the author’s work, it is not only likely but a given that he would a) write about this proposed deletion and b) discuss it on his blog. To expect that he wouldn’t, or that this discussion could somehow be kept private for Wikipedia’s regular editors only, is naïve in the extreme – and bizarrely elitist. What’s more, it smacks of the very conspiracy ideology that Skeptic from Britain has accused Kendrick of exhibiting. The increased number of contributors entering into this discussion is not a conspiracy, it is the natural result of this proposed deletion being discussed on a popular site with high viewing figures – in itself, further proof that Kendrick is a pubic figure whose biographical entry should therefore remain.[[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 04:41, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

:: Pirate hamster - I never said this discussion should be kept private, but the current keep votes are mostly invalid because they are not from active Wikipedia users, they are the result of an unethical canvassing scheme. Now we all know this is a canvassing issue [https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/12/03/dr-malcolm-kendrick-deletion-from-wikipedia], as users such as yourself have come from Kendrick's blog. There are '''twelve''' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Malcolm_Kendrick&action=history new accounts in the last 24 hours voting to keep Kendick's article] on the deletion talk-page, some of which voted here. This is against Wikipedia policy, see [[WP:MEAT]]. I have never ever seen anything like this before on a Wikipedia deletion discussion. This page should be protected IMO and locked for only autoconfirmed users. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 05:00, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

::: Skeptic - it is not "an unethical canvassing scheme" to ask the readers of your blog if they can throw light on who is trying to unwrite you from history. Kendrick does not say "go in your droves and post on Wikipedia" or anything remotely like it. His sole interest in the matter is who you are and his sole 'canvassing' is "Perhaps user Skeptic from Britain would like to reveal himself and provide some information as to why he is so interested in trying to wipe me out? Perhaps one or two of you here could join in the discussion and see what emerges." No encouraging anyone to campaign for his redemption, no inciting riot, just an understandable need to know why you have singled him out for deletion, other than because you disagree with his hypotheses. You can’t be surprised by this as you make it very plain that you do indeed wish to delete his entry because you disagree with his hypotheses. That is quite straightforward censorship, hence the responses you are getting on here. And I have only "come from Kendrick's blog" in the sense that I read about the proposed deletion there. The fact that I have NOT tried to find out who you are, and couldn’t care less who you are, is proof that Kendrick’s alleged “canvassing” is not in play here and has, in fact, been ignored by everyone on here. All these contributors are here because they disagree with censorship, or because they believe strongly in Kendrick’s ideas, or because they support free medical discussion & debate of ideas. No-one is trying to find out who you are. I would also say, with all due respect, that you can't be crying "unethical" while you yourself are trying to remove a perfectly legitimate entry for a well-established and substantiated public figure simply because you disagree with his opinions. I'm afraid that is the very definition of unethical, and I'd like to think Wikipedia has some rules of its own on that one. Perhaps you have “never ever seen anything like this before” because you have never so blatantly tried to censor something before. Lastly, I’d just like to point out that you open your comment by saying “I never said this discussion should be kept private” and finish it by concluding “This page should be protected IMO and locked for only autoconfirmed users.” I think you’ve kind of said it right there. [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 05:45, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Attention is called to this passage from [[WP:GAFD]]:
:::::{{tq|One exception to the principle of assume good faith concerns the use of sockpuppets. This tactic is commonly employed by vandals and bad-faith contributors who create multiple user accounts in an attempt to bias the decision process. A close variation is to enlist "meatpuppets", people from outside Wikipedia to "run in" (for example, if my article about a web forum is up for deletion and I post a call for other forum members to "help keep our website in Wikipedia"). Signs of these tactics are that a contributor's account was created after discussion began, that a contributor has few edits or that a contributor's other edits have been vandalism. Other Wikipedians will draw attention to such facts and may even recommend deletion simply because apparent sock- or meat-puppets piled in with "do not delete" or other similar comments.}}
::::So best you put a sock in it. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:36, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::: I haven't "created multiple accounts", I have one. My account was created 7 years ago, not "after discussion began" and I have no "vandalism" in my edit history. The ONLY criticism in your 'official' definition of sock-puppets that might apply to me is that I have few edits. This is because I am a regular (daily) Wikipedia user, but only an occasional editor. And that is because generally I don't find fault with the entries I read - this is only the second time I have seen an author I've read up for deletion - so unless Wikipedia has a policy stating that only editors are allowed to comment on deletions and that the opinions of frequent users have no place in Wikipedia discussions, nothing you have cited here refers to me, or is relevant to my contributions. I respectfully suggest, therefore, that you "put a sock in it". [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 19:32, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' News sources show some attention to his books. No coverage of ''him'' that I can see. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:: What's your argument - we should delete author's entries if newspapers only talk about what they write? Do you feel if the papers had discussed his shoes, his weight or his sex life that would give him more validity? He's a medical writer, not Kim Kardashian.[[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 06:11, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Doesn't matter. No coverage, no article. Period. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:24, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:::{{u|Pirate hamster}}, please see Wikipedia's [[WP:NBIO|standards for inclusion for biographies]]. This is a policy-based discussion. Harassing or attempting to intimidate other editors won't affect the outcome of this discussion. [[User_talk:Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">Brad</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">v</span>]]🍁 06:13, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

::::{{u|Bradv}} Where have I "harassed" or "attempted to intimidate other editors"? I have only discussed the subject at hand, or answered repeated accusations of being a sock-puppet. Disagreeing with other editors is not harassing them and if they feel intimidated by my comments then they should think up sounder arguments instead of falling back on repeatedly referring to me as a sock-puppet, even going to so far as to tell me to "put a sock in it", in other words to shut up. Perhaps you do not consider repeated name-calling of sock-puppet to be harassment? Or you see no intimidation in a regular editor telling me to stop posting?
*'''Redirect''' to [[The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics]]. Available sources don´t show notability of subject of this article, but few passing mentions are good enough for redirect to a page mentioning this man. It may be over-kill to protect the redirect then, but I feel there will be a push to recreate this article. Redirect can be created after deletion, so I´m also fine with the "delete" outcome. [[User:Pavlor|Pavlor]] ([[User talk:Pavlor|talk]]) 07:51, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' Please note Malcolm Kendrick is on the [https://www.institutefornaturalhealing.com/advisory-board/ Medical Advisory Board] for "The Institute for Natural Healing". A [[naturopathic]] practitioner is also on their advisory board... (!) They claim on their website "We are fed up with the lies and stupidity of the medical establishment and are committed to exposing these falsehoods to the public." [https://www.institutefornaturalhealing.com/about-us/]. The website advertises "Your Cancer Risk in Half—7 All-Natural Ways to Activate Your Body's Healing Forces to Defeat Cancer" and promotes dubious vitamin supplements. This is cancer quackery. The institute has been described by the [[American Institute for Cancer Research]] [https://blog.aicr.org/2013/05/22/unfit-for-human-consumption-science-vs-spin/] as misrepresenting data. [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] ([[User talk:Skeptic from Britain|talk]]) 08:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Dr Kendrick has [https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/12/03/dr-malcolm-kendrick-deletion-from-wikipedia/ posted on his personal blog] requesting that his readers !vote in this discussion, which explains the large number of new and suddenly-reactivated accounts commenting above. I would direct such users to the notice at the top of this page; unless you are making arguments based in Wikipedia policy, your statements will be disregarded by the closing administrator. [[User:Yunshui|Yunshui]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Yunshui|<sup style="font-size:90%">雲</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Yunshui|<sub style="font-size:90%">水</sub>]] 09:31, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*:Sad, really. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:41, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*:I can't help pointing out that one comment in Kendrick's blog was left by someone named (and I am not making this up) "Jonathan Bacon-Sandwich" [https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/12/03/dr-malcolm-kendrick-deletion-from-wikipedia/#comment-111689]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Wikipedia Policy ... "Remember to assume good faith on the part of others" [[User:Tjamesjones|Tjamesjones]] ([[User talk:Tjamesjones|talk]]) 11:07, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

*Malcolm Kendrick does important work. We cannot make scientific progress if we try to delete ideas we don't agree with. Stifling debate is weak and silly. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Public Health Promotor|Public Health Promotor]] ([[User talk:Public Health Promotor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Public Health Promotor|contribs]]) 11:03, 4 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— [[User:Public Health Promotor|Public Health Promotor]] ([[User talk:Public Health Promotor|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Public Health Promotor|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>

*'''Delete''' - zero claim to notability in the article, and the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources just isn't there. Wikipedia does have articles about various fringe medicine topics and people associated with them, but only if they are notable. Redirecting to [[The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics]] would also be ok, since he is mentioned there. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 11:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - Kendrick is a GP and doesn't have any background in lipidology, yet sells contrarian books about the lipid hypothesis, suggesting a missive multi-decade conspiracy. He uses well known conspiracy theorist tactics, such as cherry-picking, quote mining, misrepresentation of evidence, etc. E.g. He likes to state that, in studies, those with low cholesterol suffer more all cause mortality, but he fails to mention co-morbidity or reverse causation. He even made a ridiculous blog post stating that saturated fat cannot raise LDL cholesterol<ref>https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/07/03/why-saturated-fat-cannot-raise-cholesterol-levels-ldl-levels/</ref>, despite nearly 400 metabolic ward studies proving this <ref>https://www.bmj.com/content/314/7074/112.long</ref>. There is no mention of the meta-analysis of these metabolic ward studies in his blog post. Why? Because he likes to confuse, distract and sell books. He is a menace to society, suggesting people should eat an unhealthy diet, high in saturated fat, as well as refusing to take statins when prescribed. [[User:Swampf0etus|Swampf0etus]] ([[User talk:Swampf0etus|talk]]) 12:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
{{talkref}}
*'''Delete''' Good grief, he's a doctor, he shouldn't be allowed to write such crap, but fortunately he isn't notable, and we don't have to have an article about him. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy,''' <small>the dog</small>.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 13:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::Of course, if the article were kept it would have to discuss the fact that Kendrick's theories are pseudoscientific; I suspect the many meatpuppets don't quite realise that. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 13:27, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - this is a preposterous attempt to silence genuine scientific medical debate. There is an increasing number of followers of the controversy surrounding cholesterol theory who would like to know the credentials and identity of [[User:Skeptic from Britain|Skeptic from Britain]] <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:AndyBryantMScPhD|AndyBryantMScPhD]] ([[User talk:AndyBryantMScPhD#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyBryantMScPhD|contribs]]) 13:21, 4 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— [[User:AndyBryantMScPhD|AndyBryantMScPhD]] ([[User talk:AndyBryantMScPhD|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/AndyBryantMScPhD|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>

*'''Delete''' His opinion and the merits or dis-merits of his hypotheses are irreverent. He fails on notability, the article is a stub of a stub, and it's impossible to expand because there is no notable sourcing to be had. That being said this is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on Wikipedia. [[User:Rap Chart Mike|Rap Chart Mike]] ([[User talk:Rap Chart Mike|talk]]) 13:46, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::He is a co-signatory along with Sir Richard Thompson, President of the Royal College of Physicians and others, in a letter to the BMJ on statin prescribing. If he was a non-notable or a crank, he would not have been invited to join their august company. [https://www.bmj.com/content/348/bmj.g3306/rr/702257 BMJ letter] [[User:MartinFromWoodstock|MartinFromWoodstock]] ([[User talk:MartinFromWoodstock|talk]]) 15:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:::His contributions to the debate are not what's on the table here. His general notability, as defined by longstanding Wikipedia policy, is what's being discussed. So far, no one has been able to show how Dr Kendrick meets [[WP:GNG|GNG]] on his own merits. As I mentioned in my !vote below, he has been quoted in pieces about the issue, but has not yet - or at least no reference has been provided to the effect - done any research himself or led a research team that has had its findings published in a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]. Please keep the discussion on task, which is to say, please keep it on the subject of the good doctor's independent notability. [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 15:35, 4 December 2018 (UTC)<small>Edit [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 16:15, 4 December 2018 (UTC) </small>
::::Exactly. This whole discussion is completely off the rails. Based on policy this article shouldn't be here. Signing a letter doesn't equal notability on Wikipedia, coverage in notable secondary sources does that. [[User:Rap Chart Mike|Rap Chart Mike]] ([[User talk:Rap Chart Mike|talk]]) 15:55, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' I have not found any references that point to studies conducted ''by him or researchers under his direction'' that support the claims to notability espoused by previous commentators. Nearly all references that I have found are pieces that merely quote him talking about other studies. To me, that doesn't meet "significant coverage [that] addresses the topic directly and in detail" ([[WP:GNG|GNG]]). I respect the subject's right to have an opinion, as a medical professional, but I don't see how he is any different from any of the eighty or so GPs currently at work at the hospital down the street from me. [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 15:18, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*:{{u|Strikerforce}}, what's different from all those other GPs is that Kendrick espouses a view that is completely contrary to mainstream medicine, and our article as it stands does a poor job of exposing that. I haven't decided yet whether we need to fix the article to provide better coverage, or to delete it entirely. I'm having trouble finding enough sources about the subject directly -- mostly just passing mentions and self-published sources, but regardless of how the AfD turns out, this article cannot stay in its current state. [[User_talk:Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">Brad</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">v</span>]]🍁 15:55, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*::{{u|Strikerforce}} "I don't see how he is any different from any of the eighty or so GPs currently at work at the hospital down the street from me" is a deeply perplexing statement. How many of said 80 GPs have written 1 book, never mind 3 of them - and well-known and best-selling books at that, not little amateur treatises? Or have run a blog with a high readership, or have been invited to conferences and seminars with other authors and researchers to discuss cholesterol studies and CVD medicine? This demeaning of the man's achievements is patently not true so why say it, other than to make Kendrick seem lesser and thus decrease his notability? If he has no genuine notability then why is it necessary to trivialise what he has done in order to have him deleted? [[User:Pirate hamster|Pirate hamster]] ([[User talk:Pirate hamster|talk]]) 20:14, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::::{{replyto|Pirate hamster}} Alright, I'll expand my commentary, against my better judgement since I am not convinced that there are any participants advocating for the article to be kept that were not sent here by Kendrick's [https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/12/03/dr-malcolm-kendrick-deletion-from-wikipedia/ blog post].
::::You said, "{{tq|How many of said 80 GPs have written 1 book, never mind 3 of them - and well-known and best-selling books at that, not little amateur treatises? Or have run a blog with a high readership, or have been invited to conferences and seminars with other authors and researchers to discuss cholesterol studies and CVD medicine?}}"
::::My response is this - I do not have an answer for that, nor is it really that relevant to the overall question, in my opinion. I used a general phrase to state that I don't believe Kendrick is notable enough for his own Wikipedia article... just as I would say that - more than likely - none of the 80 GPs at the hospital down the street from me would be notable for their own Wikipedia article. You've mentioned Kendrick's books; I would ask you what content in those books is actually related to research conducted by Kendrick himself? You or I could read the results of research done by other individuals and compile them into a book, if we wanted to. Would that be enough to satisfy [[WP:GNG|GNG]] for us? (No.) So, for me, the simple fact that Kendrick has written "1 book, never mind 3 of them..." is not enough to pass GNG. As to his "blog with high readership", his Alexa [https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/drmalcolmkendrick.org statistics] aren't really that impressive for a website that you seem to want to use as a basis for passing GNG. Nearly 56% of his website's readership originates in one country (Australia), ranking the site in the 24K range for popularity there. If Kendrick were notable enough to pass GNG, it could be reasonably assumed that his website traffic would be a bit more diverse than it actually is.
::::However, I will play devil's advocate against my own rationale regarding his website and say that my analysis borders on [[WP:OR|OR]] (although, in the interest of full disclosure, website traffic analysis is part of what I do for a living, so I've got a bit of background there). The more important matter for this discussion is, as I've now pointed out multiple times, that he matter at hand is not Dr Kendrick's stance on cholesterol, etc, but rather he himself. Without significant coverage in independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], he's not notable. Simply being quoted a bunch of times talking about other people's research doesn't make him notable. Thus, the article fails [[WP:GNG|GNG]], which calls for "significant coverage [that] addresses the topic directly and in detail". Therefore, if we are properly applying Wikipedia's longstanding policies, this article should be deleted, barring someone - and the onus is on editors like yourself that are wanting to see the article kept - bringing it up to par with proper referencing. [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 21:06, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Most of what I can find is promotional. I do not seem the requisite independent coverage. [[User:Natureium|Natureium]] ([[User talk:Natureium|talk]]) 16:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' – after further research, I can't find enough coverage in independent reliable sources to write a balanced article, or even to source the information that's there now. Fails [[WP:NBIO]] and [[WP:NAUTHOR]]. [[User_talk:Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">Brad</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">v</span>]]🍁 16:26, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' On reliable sources,, pubmed lists Malcolm Kendrick's 11 papers (co-author and sole author) in well known peer-reviewed journals, and his 3 books (plus contributions to two other books) are on sale on the major bookseller's websites. These things are very easily checked, and clearly show his research credentials. I cannot reconcile the last few 'delete' statements with the clear information at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=malcolm+kendrick. Please explain. He is clearly nothing like the "eighty or so GPs currently at work at the hospital down the street". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:AndyBryantMScPhD|AndyBryantMScPhD]] ([[User talk:AndyBryantMScPhD#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyBryantMScPhD|contribs]]) 17:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::<small>— [[User:AndyBryantMScPhD|AndyBryantMScPhD]] ([[User talk:AndyBryantMScPhD|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/AndyBryantMScPhD|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 17:15, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Those are papers written by him and published elsewhere. [[WP:GNG|GNG]] calls for "significant coverage [that] addresses the topic directly and in detail". The topic is not Dr Kendrick's stance on cholesterol, etc, but rather he himself. Thus, the article fails GNG and makes him no "different from any of the eighty or so GPs currently at work at the hospital down the street from me". [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 17:20, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Academics can ''sometimes'' be notable based on their academic output, see [[Wikipedia:Notability (academics)]], but I'm afraid Kendrick isn't. The eleven entries in PubMed are not eleven peer-reviewed papers (as you say, these things are easily checked, and I'm sure I was not the only person who did check before posting an opinion in this discussion) and those that are have not been highly cited, which is the relevant criterion. (The bar for academic notability is set quite a bit higher than that. Remember that "notability" means something very specific in the context of Wikipedia.) --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 17:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' We are discussing Kendrick's notability as far as well-established standards of Wikipedia. NOT his medical positions. And it is a very clear delete based on his lack of notability. [[User:Sgerbic|Sgerbic]] ([[User talk:Sgerbic|talk]]) 17:55, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' The man is an author of a popular book and blogger. The sheer volume of comments on this page speak to his "notability" -- if he truly wasn't, nobody would be posting here. I have little doubt that arguments in favor of deleting this page are motivated by personal disagreement with his philosophies. It is a dangerous and slippery slope to begin expunging individuals off the record of history for sake of personal disagreement. [[User:Nickandre|Nickandre]] ([[User talk:Nickandre|talk]]) 19:14, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
:<small>— [[User:Nickandre|Nickandre]] ([[User talk:Nickandre|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Nickandre|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 19:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
::First, [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. I am one of those that have called for deletion and I assure you that I have no disagreement with Kendrick's positions. Frankly, I just don't care. I trust my medical care team and will defer to their judgement, should the need arise. The matter at hand is, as I've pointed out above, not Dr Kendrick's stance on cholesterol, etc, but rather he himself. Thus, the article fails [[WP:GNG|GNG]], which calls for "significant coverage [that] addresses the topic directly and in detail". [[User:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">'''Striker'''</span><span style="color:#330099;">'''force'''</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Strikerforce|<span style="color:#3333cc;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 19:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:43, 4 December 2018

  • Keep. As my final contribution to the discussion, I’d like to point out that there are many comments on here calling for Kendrick’s deletion that are allegedly based on his lack of notability because he is not discussed by established mainstream medical sources, but there is a basic problem with this premise. It is the equivalent of saying the original civil rights movement in the US has no notability because it wasn’t embraced by the newspapers or government of the day, or that the anti-apartheid movement had no notability because it wasn’t recognised by the South African government. The first rule for institutions dealing with any kind of contentious or controversial subject is that it should not be given ‘the oxygen of publicity’. In fact, many of the comments on here are quite openly advocating deletion of Kendrick’s entry purely on the grounds of his opinions, including, ironically, the original recommendation for deletion by Skeptic from Britain; they make no real mention of his notability. If an institution does not approve of an upstart, renegade, or even a simple doubter, what does it do? It closes ranks and ignores the outsider. It’s not conspiracy theory to suggest that Kendrick is not validated by scientific and medical institutions simply because they don’t want to validate him. It’s just a basic fact of how institutions work. Why would they validate him, when he spends all his time questioning their position and poking holes in their current research/ideology? Given, therefore, that this cannot be a level playing field by its very nature, then notability must, surely, be established by other parameters – such as is he well-read? Has he had his books reviewed in national newspapers? Are his opinions sought by other researchers who do not agree with the current ideology? Are his books commonly and readily available, published by mainstream publishing houses, well-known, well-reviewed on Amazon? What are his current Amazon rankings? Do any other authors/writers/bloggers discuss his books or ideas? In other words, is he a notable public figure? Have people heard of him? Is he read and discussed in places where being a ‘conscientious objector’ is acceptable? - basic indicators that he is not some amateur crank in his basement talking to four people on the dark web. He meets all these standards for notability and, given that he is the aforementioned ‘conscientious objector’, then these are the only ways to establish his notability. You cannot judge someone who purposefully sets himself outside the mainstream as lacking in notability because he is outside the mainstream. He is beaten before he starts by that criteria. I don’t want to cite all the hackneyed Galileos of history, but it is nevertheless true that people who question the ‘ideas du jour’ in any field are never welcome inside the cosy circle of respectability, so notability cannot possibly be established within those parameters. Given this, I feel his entry should stay and be edited to include all his work to give a fuller picture of the man. I see no reason why it shouldn’t be edited to fully elucidate the contentious nature of his opinions so that readers are fully aware of just how much of his thought is outside the mainstream. That way a complete picture can be given, and populist notability, plus any shortcomings of notability within current medical orthodoxy, can be established in full view of the reading public. Pirate hamster (talk) 21:43, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]