Wikipedia talk:2024 Developing Countries WikiContest

General planning thread

Feel free to brainstorm logistical details here! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Who's coming to the party?

July is going to come a lot faster than one might think. It might be worth reaching out to editors and asking for RSVPs as soon as possible, as that will likely significantly impact how the contest is organized. Ixtal and Sawyer-mcdonell, thoughts? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

i think let's give this thread a few days to ruminate & develop some concrete ideas, and then definitely ... sawyer * he/they * talk 02:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

+1; WP:VPIL is probably a good first place. ^Queenof_Hearts 02:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Additional weight to "least developed" countries

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Unanimous consensus and has been implemented, although I won't formally close it. ^Queenof_Hearts 04:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

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On the map, it has "developing" and "least developed" countries. Will/should the "least developed" get a multiplier-like bonus? ^Queenof_Hearts 01:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Support the idea, not decided on what the bonus would be. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Support - Countries highlighted in darker colors should be given more bonus points in my opinion Arconning (talk) 02:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

support ... sawyer * he/they * talk 02:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, maybe a 1.5x multiplier? — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 02:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

1.5x is fine for me. ^Queenof_Hearts 02:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Support. A 1.5x multiplier sounds good. Ghosts of Europa (talk) 02:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Criteria

How will we determine which articles are mostly about developing countries and which aren't. Obviously places and some biographies are pretty obvious, but what about albums, books, concepts, species, etc.? What about a Western-born person with parents born in a developing country? What about an article about a historical figure who's country, present day, spans a developed and a non-developed country?

Also, should we give more weight to articles more directly about the country? For example, an article is created about a current Peruvian politician vs a book by a Peruvian-born American author? There should probably be some sort of criteria so editors aren't confused about it. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 02:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

this is a great question - currently, my idea is that all articles related to a country are worth the same, with bonuses for more "high-level" country-related articles, such as "history of" or "religion in" articles, and an even higher bonus for the actual countries' articles. however, we need to iron out more tangential cases like you mention ... sawyer * he/they * talk 02:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I think this would boil down to defining the scope of the contest as "Global South (broadly construed)" and leaving the edge cases up to judges' discretion. Might be worth an instruction on the submissions page to check beforehand with a judge if they're unsure? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 02:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Some preliminary thoughts

• It would help to have a full list of countries instead of just the map. Even if you know where the countries are on the map, the islands are difficult to tell apart.
• Should we consider including some of the "no data" countries on a case-by-case basis? We shouldn't reject articles about Cuba or North Korea, for example, just because of a technicality.
• I don't like that "Winter" is included in the title just to teach people a lesson. Being intentionally confusing and WP:POINTy is not inviting, especially since Eastern Europe, Central America, the Caribbean, the majority of Africa, and nearly all of Asia are in the northern hemisphere.
• How will the multipliers work? So far I'm assuming it's just the "least developed" multiplier mentioned above. There was talk of having more points for "core" articles for each country, and I've made a list of such core articles at Wikipedia:Sample country outline. I imagine we're not going to use an inter-wiki multiplier since that would incentivize people to stick with the developing countries that already have good inter-wiki coverage.
• It would be a good idea to get a third judge who has some experience with this sort of thing or has been on Wikipedia for a while. Most of us who are involved so far only have a couple years of Wikipedia experience at most. Having an old hand involved will significantly increase the chances of this getting off the ground and running smoothly.
• And most important of all, FAs can take over a month to process and GAs often take several times that. It might help that contestants will specifically be seeking out reviews for these countries, but we need to be more proactive or the three one-month rounds system might not work. For starters, I suggest something like Wikipedia:WikiCup/Reviews needed but placed prominently right on the contest page itself. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I've whipped up a list based on the map's sources, I'll move it to a subpage if no one objects.

Extended content

"Emerging and developing" Albania Algeria Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Armenia Aruba Azerbaijan The Bahamas Bahrain Barbados Belarus Belize Benin Bhutan Bolivia Bosnia and Herzegovina Botswana Brazil Brunei Bulgaria Burkina Faso Cabo Verde Cameroon Chile China Colombia Republic of Congo Costa Rica Côte d'Ivoire Dominica Dominican Republic Ecuador Egypt El Salvador Equatorial Guinea Eswatini Fiji Gabon Georgia Ghana Grenada Guatemala Guyana Honduras Hungary India Indonesia Iran Iraq Jamaica Jordan Kazakhstan Kenya Kosovo Kuwait Kyrgyzstan Lebanon Libya Malaysia Maldives Marshall Islands Mauritius Mexico Micronesia Moldova Mongolia Montenegro Morocco Namibia Nauru Nicaragua Nigeria North Macedonia Oman Pakistan Palau Panama Papua New Guinea Paraguay Peru Philippines Poland Qatar Romania Russia Samoa Saudi Arabia Serbia Seychelles South Africa Sri Lanka St. Kitts and Nevis St. Lucia St. Vincent and the Grenadines Suriname Syria Tajikistan Thailand Tonga Trinidad and Tobago Tunisia Türkiye Turkmenistan Ukraine United Arab Emirates Uruguay Uzbekistan Vanuatu Venezuela Vietnam "West Bank and Gaza" Zimbabwe "Least developed" Afghanistan Angola Bangladesh Benin Burundi Cambodia Central African Republic Chad Comoros Democratic Republic of the Congo Djibouti Eritrea Ethiopia The Gambia Guinea Guinea-Bissau Haiti Kiribati Laos Lesotho Liberia Madagascar Malawi Mali Mauritania Mozambique Myanmar Nepal Niger Rwanda São Tomé and Príncipe Senegal Sierra Leone Solomon Islands Somalia South Sudan Sudan Timor-Leste Togo Tuvalu Uganda Tanzania Yemen Zambia

^Queenof_Hearts 03:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We can incorporate the "no data" countries into their own section that says "These countries have not been assessed by the IMF or UN, but are deemed eligible for points" or something like that. ^Queenof_Hearts 03:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for so many replies, but I agree with removing "winter". That made sense in the original plans, where we used an arbitrary "global north/global south" map, but now that we're using this (much better) map, it doesn't make sense. ^Queenof_Hearts 04:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

a couple things - will get to more later:

im not particularly attached to the winter-summer name scheme. i think it's fun, but i see your POINT point. courtesy pinging @Generalissima

thanks for linking your "core" articles list - that will be very helpful. and i agree we should do away with the interwiki bonuses in favor of the new ones we've come up with.

i also see your point about the FAC length issue - i'm amenable to either having one single 3 month round, or extending the rounds, or some other solution. i also agree that we should display the "reviews needed" prominently.

regarding the "no data" countries - most of them are, unsurprisingly, lacking coverage on wikipedia due to WP:BIAS so i would be cool with a case-by-case basis. we probably shouldn't count vatican city, but we should absolutely count the DPRK, for example. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 03:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Some thoughts: I agree with dropping the "Winter" simply because shorter names are easier to remember. There isn't a need to differentiate between another contest with the same name this year.

I also think a single 3-month round would work fine.

We could also consider using the Human Development Index instead. We could only look at countries considered High development or worse (HDI ≤ .799), giving us about 123 countries. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 04:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

there was some discussion about how we're counting countries that are "no data" - HDI could be a great supplemental measure for this purpose i think ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I also think a single three-month round would work better. Less chance of unlucky DYK/GAN/FAC promotions. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

rounds

putting this in a new subsection so it's easier to find: currently we've got 3 month-long rounds, but above we've got some legit concerns about how long the FAC & other content review processes are. what are our thoughts on having rounds? should we switch to one 3-month round? ... sawyer * he/they * talk 18:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, especially since this is a brand-new event. I think it might be beneficial to incentivize as much contribution to the contest as possible by eliminating eliminations. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

i agree - pinging @Ixtal 4 their thoughts ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

If the majority is in favor then sure. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 00:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

+1, although maybe I'm just salty I got eliminated from WikiCup because of a DYK running one day late. ^Queenof_Hearts 19:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds good — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 19:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Scoring

I made Wikipedia:2024 Developing Countries WikiContest/Scoring based on what I've read on this talk page. Please provide suggestions as subthreads to this one so we can keep the talk page easy to navigate through and make proposals easier to discuss/enact. Differences to the WikiCup I've made: removed interwiki bonuses, added bonuses for country and second-level country articles with additional bonuses for least developed countries. Some editors have discussed removing DYK points and the like, but I personally am very much against doing so. They don't give all that many points so I don't think anyone will win based on them, they increase the visibility of the content, and in order to get a DYK a page has to be either (1) created, (2) expanded 5x, or (3) GA'd. Either of those 3 options are exactly what this WikiContest is trying to encourage. Points for review and stuff really are there so we don't add to the huge backlogs. We could add a clause were no editor may pass on to the next round or win if over 50% of their claimed points are from reviews. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 11:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

i've removed the mention of an interwiki bonus from the DYK section; it's not mentioned elsewhere in the scoring page & i don't think it serves our purposes here ... sawyer * he/they * talk 16:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thought about including points for new article creations? I'd be happy to participate if I could create new start-class articles about species in these countries and have them count for something. Maybe 1 point, for minimum 1500-character relevant article (with the 1.5 multiplier for least-develop countries)? Esculenta (talk) 19:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

there was some discussion about this, but we were concerned that it might incentivize mass stub creation. for all intents & purposes, DYK credit can be considered a "new article creation" category. however, i'd be happy with giving points for non-DYK article creation with similar length/citation/etc criteria as DYK ... sawyer * he/they * talk 21:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, if we're all okay with incentivizing mass "start" creation, then add it to the scoring column! I think it's a good idea to have a way to contribute and not be compelled to add to the demands of the review systems. Esculenta (talk) 22:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

totally fair, as DYK is still in backlog mode & GAN still has a pretty big backlog. pinging @Ixtal @TechnoSquirrel69 & @Generalissima to see if you guys have any input on this ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

What if we just accepted approved DYK nominations, instead of waiting until they actually run? (Obviously, disqualifying them if someone tries to game the system around that) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

i would definitely be cool with this, as someone who just had an approved DYK nomination sitting waiting for promotion for over a month haha ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't think start should qualify. I say B+ only. We want actual articles that take time and work, not something people can pump over and over to win. I also think any article not GA level should give at the very most 5 points. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 22:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm game with Generalissima's idea to count DYK accepts for points rather than running on the Main Page. While I have a somewhat more relaxed view on article creation than Ixtal, I agree with the basic sentiment: pumping out a bunch of low-quality articles is not the goal of this contest, as it does not contribute to the encyclopedic coverage of underrepresented communities/places. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

definitely agree with this ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

awards

what kinds of barnstars, awards, etc should we be giving out!!! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

idea: other than the main big award the overall winner gets, i think having some specialized awards would be fun too, like "most countries covered" or "most top-level articles" "most article reviews" (PR, GAN, FAC) or other things like that - it would add a little whimsy & extra fun ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

There are the generic reviewing and quality content barnstars, which would be appropriate for special recognition of this kind. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

works 4 me ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

i'm in a car and to lazy to look, is there a systemic bias barnstar!!! we could like give a {{The Left Half of the Half Barnstar}} to ppl who make the 2nd round and this systemic bias barnstar to the finalists and cups to the top three, no!!! ^Queenof_Hearts 17:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

i also support most countries/DYKs/GAs/FAs/reviews!!! ^Queenof_Hearts 17:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'm sorry for typing like that. But I also support somehow incorporating {{cbarn}}. ^Queenof_Hearts 17:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"im sorry for typing like that" you're just typing like me lmfao :sob: ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

rekt!!! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I was considering this as well. If we can bring on an artist or two, it might be cool to design some event-specific awards for podium winners. Other award ideas include the {{Systemic Bias Barnstar}} and, of course, {{The Completionist Barnstar}}. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

definitely agree w the systemic bias & completionist barnstars !! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps we can ask for a Grand Systemic Bias Barnstar? To give to the winner. Since we aren't doing rounds, perhaps the top 25 editors can win the regular bias barnstar. As much as I love the completionist philosophy, I don't see the reasoning for granting its barnstar as part of this WikiContest. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 15:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

ok so here are my specialty award ideas:

• most countries covered
• most articles for one country
• most article reviews
• most top-level articles

to be awarded with some special barnstars. please give suggestions for which specific barnstars (or suggest new barnstars for this purpose) should be given for specific awards, as well as what special barnstars/awards should be given out to the top 3 overall winners. i like Ixtal's idea of a "grand systemic bias barnstar" ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with those so far. Perhaps we could add one for most women articles? — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 23:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

countries & territories not included on our map

on the main map we're using, there are a number of countries marked grey (not mentioned by the sources of the map) so i think we should outline which of those countries will count for our purposes. this UN report includes a number of non-sovereign territories. i'm going to add these territories to the scoring (probably in a different section, for now) assuming there's no objection. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

i found a better source for the SIDS list so i've updated it accordingly ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:55, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

i have added some more information about edge cases, territories, etc. anyone feel free to suggest changes here. pinging @Ixtal for their opinion here ... sawyer * he/they * talk 23:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Like, sawyer-mcdonell. — ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 23:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

submissions?

how will a submissions system work for this? should we use the same system as the WikiCup? or something else... i have very little preference on that front, but i'd like to require submissions to designate which country they're submitting for. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 23:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it could be the same system as the WikiCup with additional rule that submissions must include the primary country claimed. For example, if one did the Eritrean–Ethiopian border conflict they could claim it as either, but the bonus multiplier will depend on that explicit choice made by the submitter. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 00:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

great idea! (although both Eritrea & Ethiopia are least developed, so it wouldn't matter for the multiplier). i think we could allow people to include multiple countries in their submissions, but only claim one for multiplier & point purposes. i think it would be fine for someone to submit a Nagorno-Karabakh conflict article (for example) for both Armenia and Azerbaijan & get credit towards the "most countries covered" award for both, though. hope that makes sense ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Like I mentioned earlier somewhere, I don't think we'll be dealing with a volume of submissions large enough to merit subpages WikiCup-style; at least not for now. A regular backlog drive–style page with sections for each participant should work just fine, maybe with a couple of columns to track the number of submissions and coordinator-approved points. I like the idea of "claiming" the country or countries that have been expanded with the submission — maybe just a {{flagicon}} or two before the links, which would give the page some color. I know Women in Red sometimes does that. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

this works for me; i agree that there is not a real need for subpages (which would also be a lot of maintenance) & a single page will probably be fine. flagicons sounds fun :) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 05:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)