File talk:Foreign relations of the SADR.PNG

Needlessly Complex

The point of having a map like this is so that wikipedia users can glance at it and immediately know who recognizes and who doesn't. This map is needlessly complex.

Here is my idea:

Western Sahara should be colored black; Countries recognizing SADR should be colored green; Non-recognizing countries should be left gray

Simple. Efficient. Useful. 141.166.230.9 (talk) 04:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I welcome all readers to make any appropriate changes to the map themselves. If you feel that you can make a simpler and more instructive map, then please feel free to do so. Judging by the bitter debates that I have seen on all Western Sahara-related talk pages, I wanted to show all the shades of relevant information. There are precedents for making this kind of map, the foreign relations of Palestineis a good example. The underlying information is also difficult to work with: there are also very few reliable English language sources on this subject, and many countries seem to have very vague and variable opinions on the Western Sahara issue. If you have information that would be helpful in making this subject clearer to readers, then please participate constructively - provide useful sources and helpful changes. Thanks. Konchevnik81 (talk) 22:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One: I don't know how to make the change and Two: keeping it simple (green for recognizing countries and grey for non-recognizing is less likely to cause conflict. See for example the Kosovo recognition map. Indeed, this is how to handle vague info: don't put it on the map. A country either officially recognizes SADR or doesn't officially recognize SADR. There is no middle ground worth putting on the map. 141.166.230.9 (talk) 00:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that there is no further information "worth" putting on this map, beyond simple recognition/nonrecognition. Yes, the Kosovo map is much simpler. But then again the Reaction to Kosovo's declaration of independence has a whole page (of which the map is a part) to clarify each country's official position regarding Kosovo. Most of the countries that have interests in recognizing/not recognizing the SADR as an independent country are African nations, and many of these countries have conflicting/outdated data online regarding their positions on the issue. I also repeat: the foreign relations of Palestine uses no less than four colors to designate the international recognition of Palestine. Perhaps the countries that have removed their recognition of the SADR could be removed: but I have added those states to the map in the hopes that other users could provide more specific information on whether a country recognizes or no longer recognizes the SADR.

The SADR issue is also further complicated in that there are more variables to the issue than, say, Palestine, Kosovo or Taiwan. Part of the Western Sahara territory is administered by Morocco, part is administered by Polisario. Each side claims all of the territory. Some countries recognize the SADR and have diplomatic relations, some merely recognize the SADR, some have frozen recognition, some have no official stance pending a resolution to the conflict, some officially recognize the "territorial integrity" of Morocco, and some officially view the Western Sahara territory as a part of Morocco. So yes, the map is a little complicated, but I have made a good start at limiting the information displayed. Any users who would like to edit the map are free to do so: it is part of the public domain. Any users who would like to update the pages that the map appears on are also free to do so - I am not a Western Sahara expert or watcher, and I did not create these pages to begin with. Personally, I have put in enough hours of research to create this map, so I leave it to other users to make edits and changes. Konchevnik81 (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These types of maps are supposed to be simple; comprehensible at a glance. Your map simply does not do this. You note that there is a list after the Kosovo map: a similar list appears after the SADR map. As for the Palestine map, the status of Palestine is more complex then Kosovo and SADR because while there was a declaration of independence in the late 1980s it had no affect: instead what has effect is the creation of the Palestinian Authority in the 1990s, which controls territory but under a different mandate. Hence, it has two moments of independence, with two different effects re the Arab-Israeli Conflict. So you are incorrect when you say that SADR has more variables than Kosovo or Taiwan or Palestine it doesn't. For purposes of cartography, it is equal to Kosovo and Taiwan; and less complex than Palestine. There are countries that recognize and countries that don't.

As noted earlier, most users can't alter the map as you well know or ought to well know. If I could do it I would have already; so I expect would other users. But nobody has edited your map in the entire time since its creation. This is not because its an effective map: its not. An effective map can be read at a glance: your can't. So I request that you be flexible enough with your own creation to fix its errors and make it effective by reducing it to countries that recognize; countries that don't recognize, and Western Sahara. 141.166.224.83 (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I welcome anyone who may be interested in editing and updating this map. Perhaps they could find some objective online sources, ideally from an independent international source. I did start the map, but I would like to see a collaborative effort in the editing process. Any takers? Konchevnik81 (talk) 19:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not too complex I don't think the map is too complex, nor do I see how it is "useless" as it is. As far as I'm concerned, the only changes that need to be made are updating when there is new information. -Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its too complex if you can't read it at a glance. This substantially differentiates this map from the Kosovo and Taiwan maps which can be read in a glance. This needs to be deciphered. Its so complex that Konch needed to include a lengthy table within the map. Indeed, he couldn't have made it lengthier for lack of space.

The distinctions between the types of diplomatic relations are unnecessary. The countries that have canceled relations are unnecessary. So too is the delineation btw the area of Western Sahara controlled by the Polisario and that controlled by Morocco. That kind of detail might be appropriate on a regional map but on a world map its overboard. All the map should show our countries that recognize; countries that don't recognize, and Western Sahara itself. 141.166.152.63 (talk) 18:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, Konchevnik81, I am willing to help edit the map: however, I would think since you created the map you should already have an objective online source(s). So lets start with those and develop a list of countries presently recognizing SADR. The obvious start are countries that maintain present formal diplomatic relations, particularly those in Africa. Sicne this has to update for present, a few may have dropped recognition so each should to be reconfirmed. 18:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is the wikipedia list, Konchevnik81: it appears up-to-date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic - the issue is not including the countries that withdrawn recognition. For the countries that have suspended or canceled relations; we should check to see if they have also withdrawn recognition and update the map and articles accordingly. If they still recognize, they should be colored the same as countries that have active relations and recognize. If they have canceled recognzition, they hsould be grey like other non-recognizing states. 141.166.226.105 (talk) 19:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]