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Undid revision 370138164 by Slugmobile (talk)
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{{WPBiography
|living=yes
|class=Stub
|listas=Munsch, Marty
|auto=yes
}}

==Untitled==
*The comments immediately below are garbled due to the repeated deletion of earlier critical comments by anon IP's. See history. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 01:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

: [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 01:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC) {{done}}

Corrections sited clean <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by[[User:672.88.222.206|72.88.222.206]] ([[User talk:72.88.222.206|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/72.88.222.206|contribs]]) 22:33, 20 December 2007</small><!-- Template:Unsigned2 -->

==All factual and legit==
All factual and legit. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:68.193.213.90|68.193.213.90]] ([[User talk:68.193.213.90|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.193.213.90|contribs]]) 02:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned2 -->

== Cleanup ==
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2622/201/117/1539212199/n1539212199_30212387_8195021.jpg


I ran a cleanup. So many people added. I saw the Movie and bought both DVD's of punks not dead the movie as well as ALL GROWN UP THE MOVIE. It was worth the historical effort of this guys life as a living hell nobody would wish on a an enemy! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by

somone help it would be appreciated
18:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:68.193.213.46|68.193.213.46]] ([[User talk:68.193.213.46|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.193.213.46|contribs]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Article reads like a resume/vanity site==

I just spent 5 hours going through every sentence, link, reference, etc. trying to find what can be included in the article that meets Wikipedia's standards for [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:OR]], [[WP:RS]], [[WP:BLP]], [[WP:NOTE]], [[WP:COI]], [[WP:AUTOBIO]], [[WP:COS]] and whatever else. Here's what the article can say:
Marty Munsch (born August 1967) is an American music producer. Munsch was born in Union County, New Jersey, and raised in the towns of Franklin Lakes and Wyckoff in Bergen County, New Jersey. Munsch is the principal owner of Punk Rock Records.(citation needed for all this but I think it's OK for the article for now).

Career:
Manager of US Chaos in early '80s Link: http://www.sugarbuzzmagazine.com/bands/uschaos/uschaos.html

Producer on the album Victory Singles Volume 3 for the songs “Down the Drain” and “Parasite” by L.E.S. Stitches. Link: http://www.discogs.com/release/850465

Contributed video to: Punk's Not Dead: The Movie. Link: http://www.punksnotdeadthemovie.com/links.html

Engineer on the T.S.O.L. song “You've Come Undone” for T.S.O.L. Live 2005 CBGB's Live WFMU .Link:http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/17623

If anyone wants me to I can put all the other research I did here which indicates everything I did not include and why. It's long. I'd rather discuss any other material that other editors think should be included on a point-by-point basis so as not to overwhelm this page or any of us. But I'm open to whatever. Let's try to reach a consensus on this so we can all move on. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 21:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

;Update: Go [[User talk:Xblkx/Marty Munsch|here]] for my in depth analysis of what should be kept out of the article. If no one objects we can put this conversation on that board and keep this one for final deliberations. As I said there's a lot of stuff to wade through. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 01:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Update: [[Bob Both]] is a professor at [[William Paterson University]], as well as [[Ramapo College]] for at least 15 years running, who [[Marty Munsch]] works with [[Bob Both]], who was also my teacher and for at least 15 years. This just threw some light on "consensus" for me. There either is fact is not. Looks like fact to the casses at CPI and Twain Recording Studio too where most of his work is produced, can be verified.
:Actually when it comes to Wikipedia what matters is [[WP:V | verifiability ]]. You can know the truth but unless we can verify it from [[WP:SOURCES |reliable sources]] then it doesn't belong in Wikipedia. As for the stuff at CPI and Twain, you say all this can be verified, if so then please provide those sources and if they're reliable then we'll be happy to include them in the article. Meanwhile, the article does read like a [[WP:RESUME| resume]] and needs to be fixed. I've done a lot of work but instead of just forcing my changes on the article I'm hoping that other editors will participate in the process. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 00:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

==Invitation to edit or discuss==

I created a discussion subpage on my talk page [[User_talk:Xblkx/Marty_Munsch]] to discuss improvements to this article that I had proposed on 26-Feb-2009 that were simply deleted as vandalism by a user with a dynamic IP address.
I am not an experienced editor, so I invite the authors and editors of this article who are more familiar with the subject than I am to respond, discuss, and improve the article and to remove the content that does not meet Wikipedia standards which SQGibbon has invested hours in evaluating. Please do not simply delete the tags challenging the content that does not meet those standards. [[User:Xblkx|Xblkx]] ([[User talk:Xblkx|talk]]) 01:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

:I've finished uploading all my research to the subpage. So everyone interested please come take a look and comment, challenge, whatever. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 21:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

== New Version ==

I've copied my heavily edited version over here to be the new one. See the discussion [[User talk:Xblkx/Marty Munsch|here]] for the reasoning. Now that we have a clean and decently well-sourced version, adding more information should be easier to track and verify. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 21:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

:Good job. We'll see. I'll post another note on Marty's page about not deleting talk comments. It would seem according to the below that he is abdicating involvement. So we'll just have to keep the anon's in check. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 01:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

: Yes. we now see Marty aka SOCal9045, having professed indifference as below, attempting to revive the earlier version. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marty_Munsch&curid=9833436&diff=351479032&oldid=351478340 diff]. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 02:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

==Dialog between Pxc3580 and SOcal9045==

*Neither signed their comments. SoCal deleted Pxc's comments in responding. Reconstructed and moved from top of page.. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 01:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

===Go somewhere else to post your resume Mr. Munsch===

Honestly, this is just a vanity page and it is just sad.

Stange this user does not exist.

<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pxc3580|Pxc3580]] ([[User talk:Pxc3580|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pxc3580|contribs]]) 20:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

=== Thank you ===
Interestingly enough, I have barely recognized this wiko site and it's wacko's untill a few months ago, Sad as it may be.
I would like to go out of my way and THANK whomever may have contributed to my information no matter how it may be posted. I don't have the time to waste on a encyclopedia that is based upon public consensus.

<small>Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SOcal9045|SOcal9045]] ([[User talk:SOcal9045|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SOcal9045|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->


: The two of you. Please feel free to air your differences, but they should be confined to the content of the article. Please 1) do not delete other people's comments, and 2) sign your comments with 4 tildes. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 01:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


: To make an additional clarification, "public consensus" and "encyclopedic" are unrelated terms applied to content for differing reasons. Encyclopedic is a standard applied to content. Public consensus is used to reconcile disputes for included content and whether it meets the standards of this website. [[User:Xblkx|Xblkx]] ([[User talk:Xblkx|talk]]) 04:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

==Notable credits==

I believe this section should also be knocked out. None of the credits in there are particularly notable. I realize this begs the question if Marty Munsch himself is notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article. I'm willing to let that go, but not if anon IPs continue to add non-notable credits to the list. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 22:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:Yeah, it's tricky. I never felt these sources were particularly good but they were the best left from the previous version of the article. The Encyclopedia of Punk might be fine but then I don't have a copy so I don't know what it says about Munsch. The films are suspect as well though the "Punk's Not Dead" was on TV (Fuse channel) but then I don't think Munsch was actually in that film as he only contributed video for it. And is the Sugar Buzz magazine even available in print form? So yes, there are problems. That said I'm fine with the article being in Wikipedia but would have a difficult time arguing against a PROD. At least now it's easy to keep the article free from any more non-notable additions and if something good does ever come along then there will be plenty of space to add it in. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 23:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:: Yes. If it was footage and not a personal appearance I wouldn't describe that as notable. I don't see him listed [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0350002/fullcredits here]. That documentary had dozens of sources, and while everybody is thanked nobody gets a specific credit IIRC.

:: In fairness, the notable credits idea was my suggestion, as a solution to the endless addition of trivial credits. I thought there'd be one or two worth keeping. Producing records by relatively obscure punk bands doesn't cut it, neither do the minor engineering and mastering roles that were also listed. Where MM is notable I guess is for his role as an all round mover on the NJ punk scene, including owning Punk Rock records, and production work - but in a general way, not with a long list of credits. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 00:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

{{Unindent}} Furthermore I believe the correct solution, as per [[WP:AUTO]] is for MM to list all the credits he wants on his own site, which can be then be accessed via a ref/external link here. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 01:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:agreed. would remove all credits and would even remove the info box. just leave it to the opening sentance and have a link to his homepage. would also look at Punk Rock records page <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/192.172.8.13|192.172.8.13]] ([[User talk:192.172.8.13|talk]]) 17:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: That's not quite how I read [[WP:AUTO]]. If I'm reading the same section as you are referencing it states that biographical information from a personal website ''can'' be used for general biographical information (with certain caveats). What I get from this is that if Marty were to put some biographical information at his website we might be able to use some of that (in a neutral and non-contentious manner) to flesh out aspects of this article. That would be helpful. The "notable credits" while not terribly notable I think work fine to establish a general sense of notability (which probably doesn't strictly adhere to WP policy but is hopefully good enough). In the end I think the article is fine. It could use some fleshing out particularly in the biographical area but otherwise it's probably as good as it can get based on the sources available. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 06:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

:: I take the points of both comments above. But I believe that the only thing really bad is that the two record credits given are kind of arbitrary. It is the whole body of work in terms of New Jersey punk rock that can be construed as notable, but not any individual piece. Thus I would be very happy if it could read something like "Produced/engineered many records for bands including (2 or 3 names). - and a ref go to some list - similar to the one excised here - on his website. While individual credits might be questionable, the statement is pretty much assurely proven. As far as the infobox goes, I have no problem with it - if he's notable then let it be! The pic could need an [[WP:OTRS]], though. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 07:00, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

:::Ah, I see what you're saying now and I agree. I think keeping some of the references that are in the article now at least establishes some kind of secondary source confirmation (so that future readers won't think the article is just a link to a vanity site). Which is not to say that you advocated removing all of them but I just wanted to be clear on that point. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 07:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

::::Regarding the suggestion made by [[Special:Contributions/192.172.8.13|192.172.8.13]], I completely agree that Punk Rock Records article requires an evaluation. I have been meaning to do this but unable to find the time. ''If'' anything is relevant there, my opinion is that it belongs merged into this article. Punk Rock Records is just a corporate identity of the subject of this article and not notable apart from that. Back to the original discussion, we have a limited sample set for determining consensus whether this subject is notable. There are lot more editors to the history of this article than people participating in that discussion (not unexpected, considering that IP addresses are dynamically assigned). For the time being, like those of us discussing this, I tend to accept it and err on the side of "as good as it can get based on the sources available." That's acceptable to me. I looked at the sources again and thought about them, and for example, the choice of using US Chaos and the movie contributions as one of the (2 or 3 names) produced/engineered by the subject here; I think this is one of the few subjects referenced that could or do have a reliably sourced, relatively unchallengeable article of its own. I tend to accept those references (and this is admittedly subjective) unless they are challenged. If others in the "credits" feel they are relevant, they can create and source their own articles too. As for the image, I looked at its history, and I see no information at all indicating it is in the public domain other than a declaration by a user who no longer exists. I have seen and edited articles about bands who have actually provided their own publicity and promo photos with release permission, and had them challenged and removed by bots and that I can't prevent or dispute. I do not know what the process is for challenging images or certifying that they are released to the public domain, but I agree. The user who created it and certified it as "own work" and released it no longer exists (how does that occur?). I don't know if it matters. If this should or can be questioned, it is not in my area of expertise. But personally, for the effort we've done to clean this up as an improvement to Wikipedia, I'd rather have a stub-class article here that's factual, non-vanity site and sourced than a deleted article later re-created copied in 4 minutes from someone's PC and have to start all over again with this in a year or two. There are articles about internationally-known subjects that I have neglected improving just to extricate this garbage from Wikipedia, simply because I believe the overall quality of this great resource is better served with the former activity. [[User:Xblkx|Xblkx]] ([[User talk:Xblkx|talk]]) 05:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::There is the established [[WP:CONSENT]] process for verifying the status of files. If the status can't be verified the file should be deleted. I would suggest you clean up [[Punk Rock Records]] and then propose a merge if you feel one is merited. [[User:Wwwhatsup|Wwwhatsup]] ([[User talk:Wwwhatsup|talk]]) 18:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Then let's get to it! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.70.153.3|173.70.153.3]] ([[User talk:173.70.153.3|talk]]) 01:49, 12 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Revision as of 19:28, 25 June 2010

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