Talk:Mahatma Gandhi

people do you belive ghandi is a good person? well if you do he was'nt he took credit for something he did'nt do like TAKING CREDIT OF SAVING INDIA WHEN BHAGAT SINGH WAS THE ONE WHO DID SAVE INDIA FOR MOVE INFO TYPE IN BHAGAT SINGH ON YOUTUBE OR GOOGLE VIDEOS!!! MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR WHO YOU BELIVE IN!!!

Some vandals have removed the part on Gandhi's experiments with brahmacharya.

Towards the end of his life, it became public knowledge that Gandhi had been sharing his bed for a number of years with young women.[37][38] He explained that he did this for bodily warmth at night and termed his actions as "nature cure". Later in his life he started experimenting with brahmacharya in order to test his self control. His letter to Birla in April, 1945 referring to "women or girls who have been naked with me' indicates that several women were part of his experiments.[39] Sex became the most talked about subject matter by Gandhi after ahimsa (non-violence) and increasingly so in his later years. He devoted five full editorials in Harijan discussing the practice of brahmacharya.[40]

As part of these experiments, he initially slept with his women associates in the same room but at a distance. Afterwards he started to lie in the same bed with his women disciples and later took to sleeping naked alongside them .[39] According to Gandhi active-celibacy meant perfect self control in the presence of opposite sex. Gandhi conducted his experiments with a number of women such as Abha, the sixteen year old wife of his grand-nephew Kanu Gandhi. Gandhi acknowledged "that this experiment is very dangerous indeed" , but thought "that it was capable of yielding great results" .[41] His nineteen year old grand-niece, Manu Gandhi, too was part of his experiments. Gandhi had earlier written to her father, Jaisukhlal Gandhi, that Manu had started to share his bed so that he may "correct her sleeping posture".[41] In Gandhi's view experiment of sleeping naked with Manu in Noakhali would help him in contemplating upon Hindu-Muslim unity in India before partition and ease communal tensions. Gandhi saw himself as a mother to these women and would refer to Abha and Manu as "my walking sticks" .

Gandhi called Sarladevi, a married woman with children and a devout follower, his "spiritual wife" . He later said that he had come close to having sexual relations with her.[42] He had told a correspondent in March, 1945 that "sleeping together came with my taking up of bramhacharya or even before that" ; he said he had experimented with his wife "but that was not enough" .[41] Gandhi felt satisfied with his experiments and wrote to Manu that "I have successfully practiced the eleven vows taken by me. This is the culmination of my striving for last thirty six years. In this yajna I got a glimpse of the ideal truth and purity for which I have been striving" .

Gandhi had to take criticism for his experiments by many of his followers and opponents. His stenographer, R. P. Parasuram, resigned when he saw Gandhi sleeping naked with Manu.[43] Gandhi insisted that he never felt aroused while he slept beside her, or with Sushila or Abha. "I am sorry" Gandhi said to Parasuram, "you are at liberty to leave me today." Nirmal Kumar Bose, another close associate of Gandhi, parted company with him in April, 1947 post Gandhi's tour of Noakhali, where some sort of altercation had taken place between Gandhi and Sushila Nayar in his bedroom at midnight that caused Gandhi to slap his forehead. Bose had stated that the nature of his experiments in bramhacharya still remained unknown and unstated.[43][44]

N. K. Bose, who stayed close to Gandhi during his Noakhali tour, testified that "there was no immorality on part of Gandhi. Moreover Gandhi tried to conquer the feeling of sex by consciously endeavouring to convert himself into a mother of those who were under his case, whether men or women" . Dattatreya Balkrishna Kalelkar, a revolutionary turned disciple of Gandhi, used to say that Gandhi's "relationships with women were, from beginning to end, as pure as mother's milk" .[45] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.151.213 (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

37 ^ Birkett, Dea; Susanne Hoeber Rudolph, Lloyd I Rudolph. Gandhi: The Traditional Roots of Charisma. Orient Longman, 56. ISBN 0002160056.

38 ^ Caplan, Pat; Patricia Caplan (1987). The Cultural construction of sexuality. Routledge, 278. ISBN 0415040132.

39 ^ a b Parekh, Bhikhu C. (1999). Colonialism, Tradition and Reform: An Analysis of Gandhi's Political Discourse. Sage, 210. ISBN 0761993835.

40 ^ Kumar, Girja (1997). The Book on Trial: Fundamentalism and Censorship in India. Har-Anand Publications, 98. ISBN 8124105251.

41 ^ a b c Tidrick, Kathryn (2007). Gandhi: A Political and Spiritual Life. I.B.Tauris, 302–304. ISBN 1845111664.

42 ^ Tidrick, Kathryn (2007). Gandhi: A Political and Spiritual Life. I.B.Tauris, 160. ISBN 1845111664.

43 ^ a b Wolpert, Stanley (2001). Gandhi's Passion: The Life and Legacy of Mahatma Gandhi. Oxford University Press, 226–227. ISBN 019515634X.

44 ^ Kumar, Girja (1997). The Book on Trial: Fundamentalism and Censorship in India. Har-Anand Publishers, 73-107. ISBN 8124105251.

45 ^ Ghose, Sankar (1991). Mahatma Gandhi. Allied Publishers, 356. ISBN 8170232058. Gandhi student2 (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems particularly important, with biographic pages under lock and Ghandi being on the front page of Google, that this particular gem be restored. It seems curious this is missing with a lock in place anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.78.254 (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion should be included. I would do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.103.235.148 (talk) 01:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Please do not put our national leader's birth place as british india and the British flag, I feel it is very disgusting. I could not change the Mahatma Gandhi's page, please delete it

Please do not put our national leader's birth place as british india and the British flag, I feet it is very disgusting. I could not change in the Mahatma Gandhi's page, please delete it. Please accept it is very hurting to our pride,

will you accept if somebody puts your national leader george washington was born in british America, but even if you accept it, it may be because racially you are one and same.

But it is not in our case. It is not out of enmity or hate I say this, but please change British India, it is very disgusting.

please do change it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Narayang1975 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Err it was British India - this is historical fact, also the page on George Washington does indeed say Colony of Virginia, British America. Pahari Sahib 15:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Prior to the British arriving in India it was called "India" or "Hindustan." George Washington was born in British America because America became the United States of America AFTER the British had been there. India was India prior to the British arriving therefore Gandhi was born in Gujarat, India. It should be changed. Unity717 (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a bit strong to say that it's "disgusting". That's kinda offensive towards British people.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hansihippi (talk • contribs) 19:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Ghandi was in fact born in British India. The British Raj began ten years before Ghandi was born. 75.82.173.229 (talk) 15:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Narayang, you seem to imply that you want to lie to our readers. This is not a good idea. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Champaran and Kheda

There is no reference to who "them" are in the second sentence of the first paragraph of this section - ""Suppressed by the militias of the landlords (mostly British), they were given measly compensation, leaving them mired in extreme poverty."" I assume it is the indigo and other cash crop farmers. Just think it needs making clear. The end of the section also needs improving - ""As a result, Gandhi's fame spread all over the nation. He is also now called as "Father of the nation" in Indian."" I don't think that the "Father of the Nation" sentance is needed in this section at all (and the grammer is quite poor in the last sentence). The section should end on the "Gandhi's fame spread all over the nation". --Spaaarkz (talk) 00:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Criticism sources

http://harmanjit.blogspot.com/2008/03/mr-mohandas-gandhis-views-circa-1935.html

http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/gandhi-criticism.txt

- SridharRatnakumar (talk) 04:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Um, no one is a Libertarian rant from twenty years ago and the other is a blog that probably does not count as a reliable source and quotes Gandhi's writings out of context and without scholarly interpretation. I am sure there is much to criticize about Gahndhi since he was just as human as the rest of us, but why can't you people who are determined to speak ill of him find some scholarly sources to support your views. They must exist. Stop being lazy in your "research" and find some real sources, then you can get your views into the article. Indrian (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct, these sources do not qualify as being scholarly - [quote]peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.[endquote]. I posted them in good faith that somebody else interested may do the research from that point (arriving at relevant reliable sources, perhaps) .. not with any interest on understanding Mr. Gandhi's views let alone contributing to the article. Yet, your reply prompted me to take a closer look at WP:RS and WP:SOURCES - and I now understand the policy clearly. - SridharRatnakumar (talk) 03:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

There must be valid criticisms, though. I know Christopher Hitchens, at least, has publicly criticized Gandhi, and I'm sure he isn't the only serious person to do so. This page has a considerable air of hero-worship, but I don't know enough about Gandhi or his critics to add the relevant information. Can someone who doesn't have a boner for Gandhi add this clearly important dimension to the page?

37 ^ Birkett, Dea; Susanne Hoeber Rudolph, Lloyd I Rudolph. Gandhi: The Traditional Roots of Charisma. Orient Longman, 56. ISBN 0002160056.

38 ^ Caplan, Pat; Patricia Caplan (1987). The Cultural construction of sex. Routledge, 278. ISBN 0415040132.

39 ^ a b Parekh, Bhikhu C. (1999). Colonialism, Tradition and Reform: An Analysis of Gandhi's Political Discourse. Sage, 210. ISBN 0761993835.

40 ^ Kumar, Girja (1997). The Book on Trial: Fundamentalism and Censorship in India. Har-Anand Publications, 98. ISBN 8124105251.

41 ^ a b c Tidrick, Kathryn (2007). Gandhi: A Political and Spiritual Life. I.B.Tauris, 302–304. ISBN 1845111664.

42 ^ Tidrick, Kathryn (2007). Gandhi: A Political and Spiritual Life. I.B.Tauris, 160. ISBN 1845111664.

43 ^ a b Wolpert, Stanley (2001). Gandhi's Passion: The Life and Legacy of Mahatma Gandhi. Oxford University Press, 226–227. ISBN 019515634X.

44 ^ Kumar, Girja (1997). The Book on Trial: Fundamentalism and Censorship in India. Har-Anand Publishers, 73-107. ISBN 8124105251.

45 ^ Ghose, Sankar (1991). Mahatma Gandhi. Allied Publishers, 356. ISBN 8170232058. Gandhi student2 (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.175.197 (talk)

Name

Do we really need Gandhi's full name in the title? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hansihippi (talk • contribs) 19:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

See this for details.-Shahab (talk) 21:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a general practice on wikipedia to use the subject's full name. So yes, it is necessary. Furthermore, if one searches for the subject not using the full name it redirects here, anyway. There is no reason _not_ to use the Gandhi's full name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.231.129.52 (talk) 15:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Changed the template

changed the template and added the new one includes his signature and his work.last template did not describe it memorials dedicated to him are in mohandas karamchand gandhi template.Sarangsaras (talk) 07:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

A new up-to-date weblink?

Hello everyone, I would like to make a suggestion for a rather new weblink concerning Gandhi. On the following page, Gandhi's Path to Nonviolence - autobiographical quotes, photos, original voice, you can find an online-exhibition created in the year 2008. To me, it seems to be a valuable introduction to Gandhi's thoughts, particularly because it only consists of his own writings and no additional, i.e. artificial text. Obviously, some pictures complement this exhibition. Perhaps it'd be worthwhile to add this link to the main article (section: weblinks). Thanks for your consideration and time. Best, Pwrobel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pwrobel (talk • contribs) 21:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Tamil Transliteration of Name

• I think the Tamil Transliteration of the Name "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" in the opening sentence is unnecessary. It is general practice to list 1. English, 2. Mother Tongue (Gujarati, in this case) and 3. Hindi (Indian National Language).Other than that, it will only clutter the opening sentence.
• If there are any objections, please mention here to discuss. I will wait before removing it.

Padalkar.kshitij (talk) 13:44, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Abstinence

Shreevatsa, I am reverting your change. I do not see how WP:UNDUE works here. These are not minority point of view. Gandhi was always truthful and explicit about what he was doing. I do not like to indulge in an edit-war, please explain the if you like to change further.

Also some important information about saraladevi, (Gandhi himself admitted to have come close to have sex with her) etc has been removed by your "trimming".

Also the paragraph fits well in criticism section, as it has been explicitly stated that people (including some followers) criticize Gandhi for sleeping naked with young women.

The paragraph has indeed been copy pasted from an older source and needs cleaning.

Some part of it may fit better to "Brahmacharya" section, as you have done. However, it should not be done in the expense of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pallab1234 (talk • contribs) 08:02, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I do think it's undue weight, but I'll leave it to others to wrangle over this. Shreevatsa (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that including these experiments of Gandhi are not out of place in the article, but I do think that the length to which they are discussed is undue. My suggestion is that the material be condensed to include the first paragraph, the fourth paragraph (Gandhi had to take criticism for ....) and perhaps a briefer version of the final paragraph. The other material is unnecessary detail for an encyclopedia. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 14:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment: the matter here is not verifiability but due weight. There are over 8000 books and article that have been written on Gandhi, so there is a lot of sourced content that we can add to this article, but we should avoid main article fixation. It is fair and proper to briefly describe Gandhi's experiment with abstinence in this article and note that those practices were criticized. However the current length and detail of the section is not in proportion to the notability of these issues. Also, the section needs to be merged with the earlier Brahmacharya section, since there is absolutely no justification for segregating the praiseworthy and critical aspects of Gandhi's practice of abstinence into two different sections. A single section should cover his philosophy, practice and related commentary.

In fact, why does this article even have separate sections on Gandhi's Principles and Ideals and criticism ? Creating sections according to POV, rather than topic content, is mark of poor writing. For example, reported weaknesses of Gandhi's philosophy of non-violence (as it applied to Jews under the Nazis) should be discussed in the main Nonviolence section, and not separated out into a Rejection of violent resistance. Any volunteers to perform the merges and required trimmings ? Abecedare (talk) 15:36, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, there should not be a separate criticism section. However that goes for all type of criticism. It is better if somebody can merge the criticism on the main body of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pallab1234 (talk • contribs) 19:58, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I have merged the Ideals and criticism into the main article and moved the numerous statue photos of Gandhi into List of artistic depictions of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. nirvana2013 (talk) 13:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions

In order to be as clear as possible, I will use a (Paragraph #)-(Sentence #) naming convention for my recommended changes. ie. 1-2: "He returned to the fore . . ." This will follow the structure of the original article.

1-1: Gandhi stayed out of active politics and as such limelight for most of the 1920s, preferring to resolve the wedge between the Swaraj Party and the Indian National Congress, and expanding initiatives against untouchability, alcoholism, ignorance and poverty.

Please consider changing to: Gandhi stayed out of active politics and, as such, the limelight for most of the 1920s. He focused instead on resolving the wedge between the Swaraj Party and the Indian National Congress, and expanding initiatives against untouchability, alcoholism, ignorance and poverty.

1-3: The year before,

Please consider changing to: In the preceding year,

1-9: 26 January 1930 was celebrated by the Indian National Congress, meeting in Lahore, as India's Independence Day.

Please consider changing to: 26 January 1930 was celebrated as India's Independence Day by the Indian National Congress meeting in Lahore.

1-11: Gandhi then launched a new satyagraha against the tax on salt in March 1930, highlighted by the famous Salt March to Dandi from 12 March to 6 April, marching 388 kilometres (241 miles) from Ahmedabad to Dandi, Gujarat to make salt himself.

Please consider changing to: Gandhi then launched a new satyagraha against the tax on salt in March 1930. This was highlighted by the famous Salt March to Dandi from 12 March to 6 April, where he marched 388 kilometres (241 miles) from Ahmedabad to Dandi, Gujarat to make salt himself.

1-18: The conference was a disappointment to Gandhi and the nationalists, as it focused on the Indian princes and Indian minorities rather than the transfer of power.

Please consider changing to: The conference was a disappointment to Gandhi and the nationalists, as it focused on the Indian princes and Indian minorities rather than on a transfer of power.

1-21: However, this tactic was not successful.

Please consider changing to: However, this tactic was not successful, as Gandhi's influence continued to spread.

2-2: In protest, Gandhi embarked on a six-day fast in September 1932, successfully forcing the government to adopt a more equitable arrangement via negotiations mediated by the Dalit cricketer turned political leader Palwankar Baloo.

Please consider changing to: In protest, Gandhi embarked on a six-day fast in September 1932. The resulting public outcry successfully forced the government to adopt a more equitable arrangement via negotiations mediated by the Dalit cricketer turned political leader Palwankar Baloo.

2-5: This new campaign was not universally embraced within the Dalit community, however, as prominent leader B. R. Ambedkar condemned Gandhi's use of the term Harijans as saying that Dalits were socially immature, and that privileged caste Indians played a paternalistic role.

Please consider changing to: This new campaign was not universally embraced within the Dalit community, however. The prominent Dalit leader B. R. Ambedkar condemned Gandhi's use of the term Harijans, saying that Dalits were socially immature and that privileged upper-caste Indians played a paternalistic role.

2-7: Gandhi, although born into the Vaishya caste, insisted that he was able to speak on behalf of Dalits, despite the availability of Dalit activists such as Ambedkar.

Please consider changing to: Gandhi, although born into the Vaishya caste, insisted that he was able to speak on behalf of Dalits, despite the presence of Dalit activists such as Ambedkar.

3-1: In the summer of 1934, three unsuccessful attempts were made on his life.

Please consider changing to: In the summer of 1934, three unsuccessful attempts were made on Gandhi's life.

Please consider changing to: He did not disagree with the party's move, but felt that if he resigned, his popularity with Indians would cease to stifle the party's membership, that actually varied from communists, socialists, trade unionists, students, religious conservatives, to those with pro-business convictions and that these various voices would get a chance to make themselves heard.

Please consider changing to: He did not disagree with the party's move, but felt that if he resigned, his popularity with Indians would cease to stifle the party's membership. This varied from communists, socialists, trade unionists, students, and religious conservatives to those with pro-business convictions. He felt that these various voices would get a chance to make themselves heard.

4-3: Gandhi also did not want to prove a target for Raj propaganda by leading a party that had temporarily accepted political accommodation with the Raj.[24]

Please consider changing to: Gandhi also did not want to provide a target for Raj propaganda by leading a party that had temporarily accepted political accommodation with the Raj.[24]

5-1: Gandhi returned to the head in 1936, with the Nehru presidency and the Lucknow session of the Congress.

Please consider changing to: Gandhi returned to active politics again in 1936, with the Nehru presidency and the Lucknow session of the Congress.

Neal wells (talk) 17:44, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Neal, thanks for those well thought out suggestions. I have added you to the confirmed group of users, so that you should now be able to edit the article and implement the suggested changes yourself! If you have any doubt or questions, feel free to raise them here or contact me on my talk page. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 18:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Role in World War I

I believe a new section should be started detailing Gandhi's recruitment role in WWI. Unfortunately it is a blemish on his life of nonviolence, but it should be noted [1][2][3][4]. Any suggestions? nirvana2013 (talk) 21:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Added section. Please feel free to expand. nirvana2013 (talk) 14:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Early South African Articles

I think this section needs work. Evidence is put forth for why Gandhi was racist, such as quotes, and later this is countered by that according to Bhana and Vahed Gandhi mellowed in his views. This however is only the conclusion of their argument. Where is their argument itself, or the evidence that they use to come to that conclusion? Either more text needs to be cited or Bhana and Vahed's work needs to be elaborated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.231.129.52 (talk) 15:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

You have a point. The part from "They continue by referring ..." to "... guilty of distortion" provides very little valuable information. Moreover, the article provides no evidence that Bhana and Vahed are particularly notable scholars, so it is not clear why, among the thousands of people who have written about Gandhi, we should have to cite so much from them. Readers interested in their view should refer to the linked article. I will therefore remove that part. — Sebastian 21:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

This section has not been removed, but rather moved to "Civil rights movement in South Africa (1893–1914)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.210.167.213 (talk • contribs)

Remove link to father

The link to his father needs to be removed. It redirects back to him. I would change this myself, but the page is protected, so I can't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guta5807 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Guta for your sharp eyes and for pointing that out! I have removed the wikilink, and you'll be able to make such edits yourself in a few days. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Brahmacharya section

In the brahmacharya section,

When Gandhi was 16 his father became very ill. Being very devoted to his parents, he attended to his father at all times during his illness. However, one night, Gandhi's uncle came to relieve Gandhi for a while. He retired to his bedroom where carnal desires overcame him and he made love to his wife.

Here the part "made love" is not substantiated. If the original chapter is checked, Gandhi talks about "I woke her up. In five or six minutes, however, the servant knocked at the door. " and "carnal desire" but not of "made love". --Nvineeth (talk) 10:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think instead of adding anecdotes, it will be good if we can write something like, "Gandhi regrets his shortcoming of 'carnal desire' during the hour of death of his father" ... something like this. --Nvineeth (talk) 10:34, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Another observation, the part "Sex became the most talked about subject matter by Gandhi after ahimsa (non-violence) and increasingly so in his later years. He devoted five full editorials in Harijan discussing the practice of brahmacharya" probably is not widely supported and not all authors may converge on this opinion. If this opinion is not accepted by several mainstream authors, its better to remove it ( the first sentence ). --Nvineeth (talk) 10:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

A Class assessment request

I think this article has miles to go before it reaches A Class status. Happy editing! Hekerui (talk) 09:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)