Talk:2015 FIVB Volleyball World League

Editing from official website

I edit the information from official which show Japan in group 2 instead Germany and Venezuela take the remaining place.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Noncommittalp (talk • contribs)

Not done: According to the page's protection level and your user rights, you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 08:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

FIVB standing/ranking procedure

I felt the need to create this section since the way FIVB adopted to make the overall standings of the world league and grand prix in the last three years is not intuitive. It's in fact confusing. Since a lot of editors, out of good faith, edited the standings in discordance with FIVB procedures and a lot more editors will probably continue doing so, I took some time to explain the details of the procedure and also criticize it a little.

Up to 2013, both tournaments experienced a quite long span of stability in their formats.

The world league with an intercontinental round with 12 teams in early days (single occasions 8/10/11 teams) with 3 pools of 4 teams and later 16 teams with 4 pools of 4 teams playing home and away two games per weekend. The pools being formed as to balance the stronger and weaker teams in a way that almost every pool could be described as composed of two strong contenders to a place in the final round and two "punch bags". The final round either with 4 teams in final 4 format with sigle game play-offs, semifinals, third-place game and final or 6 or 8 teams divided in two groups of 3 or 4 teams playing in a single round robin and the top two of each group proceding to the final 4 in the same way. Finals almost ever played in Europe or South America.

The grand prix with an "intercontinental round" (mostly an east asian round in reality...) consisting of "kind of random" pools wandering the "world" (East Asia, =P ) and somehow coming to a top 6 (mostly) or 4 that reach the finals (I think the grand prix format is oddily random... ). The most common finals format being a single round robin among the six teams qualified, almost always played in East Asia (Italy managed to shortly break this monopoly and finaly we will have finals in the Americas witch I think is great).

That being said, both tournamentes consisted of a single division as every team in the competition contended for the title (quite few really had a chance, but indeed...). The biggest format change came in the 2013 world legue and just in the world legue. The 2013 grand prix kept the same old format, just increasing the number of teams to 20. In that world league the 18 teams taking part were divided in 3 pools, but not balanced pools as done before. The top 12 teams perceived as the strongest ones at the time conformed the two top pools representing a sort of 1st division and the weaker 6 formed the third pool, a 2nd division. The top two teams of each of the top pools qualified to the finals plus the host of the finals, one of the 12 top teams. The "champion" of the third pool received a berth in the final round as well. By that FIVB intended to give the once "puch bags" something to long for, a motivation hoping to foster volleyball beyond its usual borders. With that format, 5 berths on the final round were given to the top 12 teams and 1 to the bottom 6. Canada ended up winning the third pool and playing in the final round. They did not manage to reach the semifinals but they beat Russia in what I think was their gratest feat in volleyball up to then. The problem with that format, somithing the other 7 teams of the top 12 that din't make it to the final heavily criticized, is that while they had to face Brazil, Russia, Italy, Poland, USA, Serbia, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Canada faced South Korea, Japan, Portugal, Finland, that is, a quite easier path then theirs and even tough, Canada were ranked above then all, receive much more money prize and ranking points (to the FIVB World Ranking, used to seed teams in major competitions and to award berths to then). Canada was ranked 5th overall in that edition as can be seen here.

After the heavy criticism from top teams and sponsors, FIVB proceeded futher in the format change, creating 3 divisions with promotion and relegation, expanding to 28 teams taking advantage of the growth in the popularity of the sport, with european leagues receiving more and more sponsors money. FIVB decided that the group 1 would be formed by just 8 top teams (they were 12 in 2013) with 5 berths to the final round would go to then (that pleased/appeased the top teams) and that even tough the winner of group 2, besides being promoted to the next year group 1, would still take part on the final round, they would be ranked 9th overrall in the world league (receiving prize money and ranking points accordingly) regardless of playing the final round top 6. That satisfied almost completely the top teams and sponsor related to then (inicially they had asked the winner of the group 2 to be only promoted to the next year group 1, not taking part on the final round) and also kept the motivation boost FIVB wanted to those teams in group 2, now stronger, since the group 1 was reduced to just 8 teams, and bigger, with 12 teams. Also even the 3 teams of group 1 that didn't manage to reach the final round would be ranked above the group 2 winner.

And that is what we have now. The only change in the 2015 edition format is the expansion of the group 3 from 8 to 12 teams, with the world league overall going from 28 to 32 teams. It's a tricky format, but I think it's much better and fairer than the 2013 format. The group 1 with only 8 teams and 5 berths to the final justifies giving a berth to winner of a stronger group 2 and the fixing of 9th rank makes it that the other 3 from group 1 don't feel made a fool of. And that's ok since the winner of gorup 2 will play in group 1 nest year and manage to take a better rank then. Another possibility I see would be taking off the berth of group 2 winner to the final round but only if the group 1 is expanded to 12 teams. As we are now, I would keep Russia there, promote France and Bulgaria, 10 teams already, and take 2 of the 5, Argentina, Belgium, Netherlands, Canada or Germany. Germany certainly deserve it, but since FIVB must not be happy with their withdrawal to play in the European Games, FIVB would certainly give Germany one year ticket to the group 2 in this hypothetical situation.

Last but not least, I don't know what would happen if the winner of group 2 manage to reach the semifinals of the final round. FIVB said that winner of gorup 2 will be ranked 9th regardless of their participation in the final round. That happened to Australia last year as can be seen here and here, but if the winner of group 2 goes to the semifinals, they will either play the third-plce game or the final. Will they still be ranked 9th? What if they actually win the world league? Will they still be ranked 9th? Thats is confusing and crazzy! Let's take France as an example. I know that facing Brazil, USA, Poland, Italy and Serbia is on an entirely other level, but France was 4th in the last year world championship and mopped the floor with every team in group 2. Maybe they can actually win the world league. Let's take next year world league. Russia will play in group 2. They are a team that can pull great level of play and great disapointment time to time, but if they are in good shape they can pretty much win group 2 and the world league next year. Would they be still ranked 9th in that case? Madness! =P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.56.51.52 (talk) 05:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I forgot, regarding the standings/ranks of teams that do not proceed to the final round of either group, FIVB rank then equally based on their position on their pools, that is, all the second placed of a certain group (1, 2 or 3) are ranked equally, all the third placed are also ranked equally and even all the fourth placed are ranked equally. That can be seen in the same links above showing Australia being ranked 9th last year. Team records are only used to determine the team that will be relegated, but they stil receive the exact same rank. Both Poland and Bulgaria were ranked 7th even tough Bulgaria was relegated for having worst record. The same in group 2, Japan and South Korea were both ranked 19th even tough Japan was relegated. I insist, just look at the FIVB official links above.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the Division 2 winning team has not participated in Division 1 from the very begining. Hence last year Australia was classified 9th. But what would happened should France qualifies for the Final 4 (Australia was eliminated in the First Round)? My solution will be to classify France as 9th for the time being with footnote regarding their final position.

I've read in some sports news website that there will be another format change just to keep Russia in Group 1 (finished last and relagated to Group 2 like Bulgaria last year). More likely the number of teams will be increased to 36 with Group 1 also having 12 teams and the final round will have 8 teams (top 2 teams from each group, the host and Group 2 winner)

ivanerope (talk) 10:15 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I liked both your sugestion and the one already done in the article by another editor. I like the idea of Group 1 with 12 teams. I mean, in grand prix Group 1 has 12 teams and we have much less top teams, the gaps in quality are huge there. In men volleybal there are more high level teams closely matched. France and Germany must both be in Group 1. Bulgaria also. Maybe we can see soon a Cuban team complete, with all the expatriated, following USA and Cuba resuming diplomatic relations. And a complete Cuban team sure deserve to be in Group 1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.56.51.52 (talk) 09:32, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Final ranking

The final ranking is based on the FIVB ranking procedure for the 2014 World League. The winner of group 2 receives World Ranking points as position 9th (no points from Final Six). You can see this and this. And the final standing of final group 1 of 2014 edition from this show Australia ranked 5th, but ranked 9th in ranking table. So, the final standing of the 2015 edition should be the same with 2014 edition. Now the references point this way, and nobody show any references against all of mine.Noncommittalp (talk) 20:18, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

In fact Australia was ranked 9th last year. But France can be the champions of the 2015 World League today. It would be odd, to say the least, the champions being ranked 9th overall in the World League. All this mess comes from this system in whitch the champions of Group 2 goes to the Group 1 finals. Those 3 teams of Group 1 that don't make it to the finals can rightfully complain that they had to play stronger teams in Group 1 pools and had them be given the chance to play the teams of Group 2 that France played against, they would had make it to the finals as well. This claim has a little of crystal ball in it, but I feel like it makes sense. It's exactly because of those kind of protests of teams in Group 1 that FIVB came up with this rule that the winner of Group 2 would be ranked 9th overall with no points from Final Six, since the first time this "winner of Group 2 playing Group 1 finals" rule was used, Canada were ranked 5th overall, and in that edition (2013) Group 1 had 12 teams so the Group 2 that Canada won was much weaker then the ones we had in 2014 and 2015 editions. The only thing that makes this format acceptable is the fact that Group 1 with only 8 teams leaves out some strong teams such as France or Germany. If this format is kept for 2016 edition, Russia will play in Group 2. But I think the better way to avoid this mess would be a Group 1 with 12 teams and the winner of Group 2 only being promoted to the next year Group 1, not playing in Group 1 finals. Just as it's being done in the Grand Prix this year. Promotion to the next year Group 1 is a great and fair prize to the winners of Group 2. Next year they will play in Group 1 and have their shot, a fair one, to reach the finals of Group 1.

As for the ranking procedure for this year edition, I think the better way of going about it is to wait. Let's leave the ranks from 1st to 9th blank just as they are now and wait for the final standings from FIVB. I was kind of cheering for France just out of curiosity to see how FIVB would go about it. Let's wait and see what FIVB will do.177.9.62.87 (talk) 08:26, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

We won't edit the content follow the references, will we? Because all of references from last year show like I said And, 2015 and 2014 edition are the same competition format. Why the content in this article didn't follow the reference. OK I agree with you we should wait, but you can see now the situation nobody wait. So, I found some references to determine the editing war. And, they show like I said. Nobody show me the references against mine. So, the article shouldn't follow the references, should it? I know France can be the winner, but last year Australia can be the winner, too. Both teams are under the competition format, right? Now, nothing change, what would it be? Use the references or not? If FIVB change the rule I am OK, but not now.Noncommittalp (talk) 11:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)