Talk:2020 bombardment of Stepanakert

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POV and Missile?[edit]

The article is without doubt is based on the Armenian POV. I will take the liberty of adding the template myself. Also, the lead section mentions Azerbaijani missile and cluster bomb attack on the city, but the body of the article on mentions aerial strikes and shelling. So, will change the lead accordingly. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 21:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was not the creator of this article, but was working on fixing and adding more content when you posted this message. I have already added more content. Similarly the article that you created here 2020_Ganja_ballistic_missile_attacks is very biased and I added POV to your page. Note to other editors to review all the Nagorno-Karabakh pages with the facts and sources provided. I think it is important to provide both sides of the story. If anything on this page is not accurate, please feel free to point out and discuss in this talk page, before just reverting, because obviously there is a COI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Expertwikiguy (talk • contribs) 22:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as you've implied, this article is basically "an eye for an eye". The article about Ganja is not biased, as it has been edited by third-party editors. Check your arguments. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 22:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a problem with the title, then maybe calling it the shelling of Stepanakert? From this German journalist, this wasn't about three events, but almost constant shelling for days. He says: The most intense of civilians shelling that I have seen so far. And he has previously reported the wars in Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan. Hemşinli çocuk 23:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Solavirum I have added independent sources from Algazeera and other non-Armenian publications. If you have other sources that dispute this happened feel free to provide and we can add. We can leave POV here for discussion. I have no issue with that. I am all for providing an unbiased article that talks about both sides. You can suggest here what to add and then we can remove POV. Also I was not the creator of the article and so there are multiple editors. Expertwikiguy (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

De jure is not a correct term, considered is more accurate, Wikipedia is not a lawyer to choose what is legal or not. Hemşinli çocuk 00:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Expertwikiguy, title is not the problem. If it is constant, it is bombardment. Please, change the bombings to bombardment everywhere you see. Refrain from using accusative statements in the name of Wikipedia, highly prefer Western media sources per WP:RS/P. Bombardment is clearly happening, but Azerbaijan denies targeting civilian facilities and says that it is destroying military objects. So, consider that, and edit accordingly. Because Wikipedia is not the media branch of the Armenian Ministry of Defence. I will remove the tag now, but will occasionally come and check the situation. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 08:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How do you differentiate between bombings or bombardments. I looked up definition here on Wiki and it is almost the same thing. They both could mean bombing via missiles or airplanes. Thanks for removing POV. Could you add once reference to Azerbaijan denying the claims? Expertwikiguy (talk) 10:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Expertwikiguy:, I think the difference between bombing and bombarding is that Stepanakert is within the conflict zone and this is probably a prelude to a siege. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 15:10, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. the article might be renamed to 2020 Siege of Stepanakert in the future. We'll just have to wait. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 15:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Number of Deaths and Injured[edit]

Does anyone have accurate number of total deaths and injured and can provide sources reporting on this? So far the provided sources total up to one dead and 16+ injured. Once article says dozens inured, so it is not clear how many that is. Expertwikiguy (talk) 08:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi dear Expertwikiguy. I can't find any specific source for Stepanakert. Since there are constant shellings in Shushi and other settlements, the official statistics, at least the links I have seen, are general. This article is incomplete at this moment since there have been more bombardments after October 3. I will try to sum the numbers manually after writing about all bombardments. --ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 19:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ԱշոտՏՆՂ, you can compile civilians causalities from daily official reports. They state where the incident took place, either Stepanakert or Shusha. That's what I've been doing in other pages. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 19:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Stepanakert on October 4 2020.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:04, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Stepanakert on October 4 2020.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stalin gifted/gave/made Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan[edit]

Maidyouneed I rephrased the statement you added to the article. Multiple high quality sources confirms that it wasnot Stalin, but Kavbiuro who decided to KEEP Nagorno-Karabakh withing Azerbaijan. Not transfer it to Azerbaijan, but keep it. I referenced all of the sources into the article. The fictions of the minority that Stalin took away Karabakh and gave it to Azerbaijan will not work. Especially considering that even the very decision to leave Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan clearly says what's what.^[1] Abrvagl (talk) 19:54, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added one more source: John Wright, Richard Schofield, Suzanne Goldenberg. Transcaucasian Boundaries, p. 102 : The matter of Karabakh was discussed in the first half of 1921, by the Kavburo. An agreement seems to have been reached on Karabakh in Armenia's favour on 12 June 1921, with the assent of Baku. However, some weeks later the Kavburo was still discussing the future of the territory, which had apparently not been resolved in June. It was proving a contentious issue. There were two more meetings on 4-5 July. Stalin was present at both of them. On 4 July, discussion centred on whether to treat all of Karabakh as a unit, or to treat the mountainous part as separate from lowland Karabakh. The latter option was eventually chosen, and the meeting decided to include mountainous Karabakh in Armenia, and to carry out a plebiscite there. (Those in favour of this resolution included G.K. Ordzhonikidze, A.Miasnikian, Yu. P.Figatner, S.M.Kirov and A.M. Nazaretian; Narimanov opposed, and so, apparently, did Stalin.) The matter was raised again the next day with Ordzhonikidze and Nazaretian dissenting from the resolution agreed upon in the previous meeting, stressing the importance of reaching inter-ethnic peace. The earlier decision was overturned, and, citing the economic linkage between upper and lower Karabakh, the region was declared an autonomous region in Azerbaijan, with Shusha as its administrative capital.

It is clear that it was collective decision, not Stalins gift. Abrvagl (talk) 20:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Постановление Кавбюро от 4 июля 1921 года. ЦПА ИМЛ, ф. 85, оп. 18, д. 58, л. 17. Постановление от 5 июля: ЦПА ИМЛ, ф. 85, оп. 18, д. 58, л. 18.//Нагорный Карабах в 1918—1923 гг. Сборник документов и материалов. Издательство АН Армении. Ереван, 1991, стр 649—650.

[1] Постановление Кавбюро от 4 июля 1921 года. ЦПА ИМЛ, ф. 85, оп. 18, д. 58, л. 17. Постановление от 5 июля: ЦПА ИМЛ, ф. 85, оп. 18, д. 58, л. 18.//Нагорный Карабах в 1918—1923 гг. Сборник документов и материалов. Издательство АН Армении. Ереван, 1991, стр 649—650.

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