Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Using icons for teams in race reports

Not entirely relevant to this page in specific, but there wasn't any other place I'd put it.

Saying, for example, "Lewis Hamilton of Mercedes" makes it so a lot of space is needed just because the name of the teams needs mentioning, while an easier approach would be to use an icon, made into a template so it's easier to use: " Lewis Hamilton" or " Alexander Albon"

Now there are some problems with this such as it being expensive to load. I'd leave it up to you to check the trade-offs. Mohammad.darg (talk) 08:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

This only works if everyone knows what these symbols mean. Which they don't. Only F1 fans will reconginse Williams logo. Does anyone know what Toleman's logo was? I don't think so. The only positive is that it saves a small bit of space. The negatives are endless. SSSB (talk) 09:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Any question of whether or not this is good for users is irrelevant, there's simply no way this would be compliant with licensing requirements. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 09:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

It is compliant. We already have the logos in the articles for the Constructors. SSSB (talk) 10:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Please re-read WP:Non-free content and WP:Logos as this is unequivocally prohibited. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 10:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not "unequivocal". This is not as black-and-white as you make it out to be, after all, all the logos appear on the Wikipedia pages of the respective constructors (Scuderia Ferrari contains the Ferrari logo). From WP:LOGOS: "long standing consensus is that it is acceptable for Wikipedia to use logos belonging to others for encyclopedic purposes". Several of the logos contain the statement "This logo image consists only of simple geometric shapes or text. It does not meet the threshold of originality needed for copyright protection, and is therefore in the public domain." (File:Logo Williams F1.png as an example) and all the others could arguable be allowed under the Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. The only reasons to argue that it wouldn't be allowed under would be because it doesn't fufill criteria #3 and #8 under Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria#Policy. But again, this is something that could be debated. It is not unequivocal. SSSB (talk) 11:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

That is a shocking misrepresentation of policy and not something I would normally expect from you. Such use of logos is clearly not minimal as required for the use of non-free content, and is clearly very replaceable (by prose). Again, such use of logos is very explicitly disallowed. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 12:16, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary, you appear to be the one not understanding the situation. The vast majority of these logos is not subject to copyright simply because they don‘t pass the trehold of originality. Those files are in the public domain and the non-free content simply doesn‘t apply to them. They aren‘t non-free. For the few that are, stricter limitations do apply. There are other more important reasons why this proposals are unworkable though. Tvx1 16:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a moot point, since the Red Bull, RB, Ferrari, and Aston Martin logos unambiguously do pass the threshold of originality, and depending on which version you want to use the Kick Sauber and Mercedes may do as well. They are non-free. So unless you're seriously proposing only doing this only for 50% of the teams (which would be comically stupid) then it does not even slightly matter if a few of them aren't subject to policies on non-free use, no matter how poorly you interpret copyright policies. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as we should we using names not logos, as just logos violates the MOS, and names are easier for casual readers to understand. Also, some of the logos are likely copyrighted, and so this also violates WP:Image policy. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Fails MOS:NOICONS and is a total non-starter for that reason. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• I agree, clear MOS violation. -- Cerebral726 (talk) 12:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

World Constructors Championship Error

On the Mercedes part of the grid, it's mixed up where it says Lewis won in Austria instead of Russell, the top part is Lewis as he won in Great Britain and Belgium, and Russell won in Austria 209.216.190.30 (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not one row per driver. The best result at each round always goes on the top row, regardless of whose result it is. (This is explained in the text under the table.) Therefore the table is correct. SSSB (talk) 16:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Source needed for number

@Island92: Regarding this edit, don't remove sources because a source "will" be added in the future. That is an unacceptable reason to remove a valid citation and leave uncited material on the page. Cerebral726 (talk) 18:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• @RxxingAddict: pinging since they have also removed the citation and left the number uncited. -- Cerebral726 (talk) 19:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  This source, being added next to Sources: into the entries table is enough, rather than having it close to a driver name or his race number. Island92 (talk) 20:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Ferrari HP footnote

Rather than edit warring, can we have a discussion (pinging the editors involved, not necessarily saying you are all actively edit warring: @5225C, Island92, Pyrope, and Joseph2302:) SSSB (talk) 07:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The sourcing for this claim was inadequate, as the source says they became title sponsor, but didn't say anything about car entry names, so is WP:SYNTH/WP:OR unless a source is added which mentions car names. Also seems rather trivial to me, as this doesn't affect the F1 season. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:29, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

On Ferrari.com you read Scuderia Ferrari HP. Only for an entry list in F1 they enter without HP. Hence why the footnote must be there to distinguish this fact. Despite being known worldwide as Scuderia Ferrari HP, Ferrari in F1 compete without HP. The footnote must be there. Island92 (talk) 09:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

According to the agreement, HP is a title sponsor. HP is visible on the chassis and drivers uniform. HP is not used as title sponsor only for the entry list entrant name. Why? Make it clear with a footnote. Island92 (talk) 09:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly the sort of situation WP:10Y was written for. What name Ferrari uses in their press releases is of no consequence. We basically never report on sponsorship arrangements for this precise reason. In fact, generally the only time we mention sponsors in a season article is when teams enter with a sponsored name – which is exactly what Ferrari isn't doing. An announcement does not in itself make something significant, and just because something is verifiable (that is, that Ferrari announced they would change their name) does not mean it is of encyclopaedic significance. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 13:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, and so why are we keeping Scuderia Ferrari HP in 2025 and 2026 entries? Island92 (talk) 13:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I have argued repeatedly that we should not. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 13:29, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's remove them. Island92 (talk) 05:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

This situation is different from 2025 and 2026. In this article, we have the source saying that HP should be on the entry lists, but none of the entry lists actually contain them. For 2025 and 2026 there are sources which say that Ferrari will enter under that name, and there are no entry lists for 2025 and 2026 to directly contradict this source (we only have the OR arguement that the 2024 entry lists not showing HP means that the 2025 and 2026 entry lists won't either). When we see that Ferrari are not entering under HP, I will support removing them under WP:10Y. However, as WP:10Y does not override WP:OR, it only supports removing the info from here and not the 2025 and 2026 articles. SSSB (talk) 07:21, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's agree to disagree on the 2025 and 2026 articles. However, it does sound like we all agree there is no need to discuss the press release in this article, and we will only add HP to this article if a future entry list includes the change. Is that correct? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 11:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

It is an explanatory footnote, not a full discussion of the topic. You are making it sound as though there is a whole section of the main prose devoted to the ins and outs of this issue, but there isn't. This is a service to readers who may be confused as to why Ferrari's public identity is "Scuderia Ferrari HP", yet we don't reflect that here. That is a right and proper way for an encyclopedia to conduct itself. Pyrope 15:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

"Public identity"? Where, precisely? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 01:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Their website, for example [1]: "Scuderia Ferrari HP" at the top left, the Prancing Horse / HP logo in the middle. Their press releases also use that identity [2], as well as all their socials. Cerebral726 (talk) 12:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

The question then is do we reflect what is in the official documents and on TV, or what's on the social media pages? It's a pretty obvious decision. The substance of any proposed note is only "Ferrari had a sponsorship arrangement". All teams have prominent sponsors and branding in their public identities (of course not necessarily in their name). Again, any note would fail the 10Y test abysmally. Ferrari's social media will change, their 2024 entry will not. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 12:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)