Talk:Ali/Ghadir Khumm

From Talk:Ali/Archive4

Ghadir Khumm

I added something about Ghadir Khumm from the reliable site: Al-islam.org--Sa.vakilian 10:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

only problem being... it's not a reliable website. ITAQALLAH 11:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say that? It's on the basis of Muslim Hadiths. If it was not reliable, then what could be reliable.--Sa.vakilian 13:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

al-islam.org is a shi'ite polemic website. it does not qualify as a reliable source. the recollection of the event as you have written in the article is not agreed upon, and is not tawatur lafdhee. ITAQALLAH 15:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There is the whole text of "Ghadir Khutba" on the basis of 42 books of Shiites and Sunni. [1]--Sa.vakilian 13:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

do you see where it says it has been taken from "various portions"? not only does this show a lack of tawatur, but also a lack of tasheeh made by the author. you cannot simply join all of the reports together, assuming it will make the case stronger. this is highly unreliable. ITAQALLAH 15:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? I don't understand. As I said you before for example a Sunni historian and theologian (Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari) quoted this Hadith from 70 ways. Is there any hadith which has narrated more than Ghadir.The chains (asnad) of narrations of Ghadir Khum--Sa.vakilian 17:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To acheive agreement I write Hadiths on the basis of Sunni books:

• Al-Sunan al-Sughra:"It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things. One of them is greater than the other. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. So watch how do you succeed me in them. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)"كأنّي دعيت فأجبت ، وإني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين ، أحدهما أكبر من الآخر : كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي ، فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما ؟ فإنهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا عليّ الحوض (v.5 p:45&130)
• Sunan al-Tirmidhi :"For whoever I am his Leader or master (mawla or Wali), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla or wali)"فمن كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه" (v.5, p 633)
• Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal: Umar ibn al-Khattab said:"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the Leader (mawla) of all believing men and women " "«بَخٍّ بَخٍّ يابنَ أبي طالبٍ اَصْبحتَ مولايَ و مولا كُلِّ مؤمنٍ و مؤمنةٍ»(Vol. 4 P.281)

There are too many other references but I think it's enough. However, If you doubt in this text, Please go and read this scholar text English version and Arabic version and also you can read this scholar text about Hadith Saghalain .Arabic version--Sa.vakilian 03:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

the first narration is not directly related to this article, i am sure it's already present in other more relevant articles. the narration itself is fine although there are differences in wording as well as differences in context. the second narration is differed over according to minhaaj as-sunnah, some call it mash'oor and others not. the context is again also differed over, i.e. when he said it and what it was in relation to. the third narration i did not manage to find in al-musnad, and there is reasonable basis on which to consider it unsound until tasheeh is made. regardless, the sources you are giving for the actual narrative and contextualisation in the article are not reliable. you cannot present ahadeeth (which may or may not be sound) and then contextualise it yourself or through weak narrations. if you want to discuss this further, please use the user talk pages. ITAQALLAH 06:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not the dabate between me and you. I accept that there is little differences among references but there are some differences in reading qur'an too. For example "مالک یوم الدین" is read in two way with two meaning. Do you say the qur'an is unreliable source becouse there is 14 different ways to read it.

there is no difference in the text of the qur'aan. there is differences in qira'at (i.e. diacritical markings) which have little effect in changing the general meaning or context. this has nothing to do with actual differences in matn. ITAQALLAH 06:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I beleive there isn't any historic isuue which all of the references says 1 and just 1 thing about it. Also Wikipedia want to publish all of the reliable narration about any issue.

There is reliable scholar text in this case [2] which shows at least some of the Sunni scholars and all of the Shiite scholars believed that this Hadith is reliable.

There are some of the Sunni scholars who think this hadith is Sahih"Amongst these scholars were

a)Abu Isa Tirmidhi in his Sahih Tirmidhi (v.5, chapter 20-Virtues of Ali ibn Abi Talib- Hadith #3713), b)Abu Abdullah Hakim Naishaboori in al-Mustadrak A?la al-Sahihain, c)Tabari (based on the narration of Dhahabi in Tadhkirat al-Hufadh, vol.2, p.713, Hadith #728)d)Shams al-Din Dhahabi has written a book specifically about the narration of Ghadir. (Ibn Kathir has noted in his book al-Bidayah wa al-nihayah, vol. 5, pp. 228-229 that ?our sheikh Abu Abdallah Dhahabi has considered this narration of Ghadir as Sahih)e)Abu al-Hassan Maghazili in his book ??Manaqib?? has narrated from his professor, Ibn Hajar Haythami in his Sawaiq al-Muhriqah (p.43) f)Ibn Abd al-Birr in Al-Isti?ab All of these scholars have considered the narration of Ghadir as Sahih."comment no.13

There are some of the Sunni scholars who think this Hadith is Mutavatir. "From amongst the ancient and Salaf scholars of the Sunni school of thought, scholars like Dhahabi (another narration of Ghadir, according to Ibn Kathir?s Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, vol. 5, p.233), Jalal al-Din Suyuti, Shams al-Din Jarazi Shafiei author of Asna al-Matalib and . From amongst the contemporary scholars, scholars like Diya al-Din Muqbili in his book- Al-Abhath al-Mutaaddida fi al-Funun al-Mutaaddida, Shahab al-Din Abu al-Faydh Hadarmi in his book Tashnif al-Adhan, and many others have considered the narration of Ghadir as Mutawatir. "comment no.15

And all of the Shiite scholars believe that it is Mutawatir.[comment no.16

I remind you we, as wikipedians, aren't in the position to judge about the reliablity of the scholar texts unless we show some sholar texts which prove our claim. And I remind you If we don't use such texts because of minor variaty, then which text can we use? I propose to add all versions which relates to this article, If there are varriaties in the sources.--Sa.vakilian 06:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

with all due respect i think you are not understanding the issue. the narration/event of ghadir is mutawaatir but there are significant (and no, they are not minor) differences in the matn of the hadeeth, and so certain parts of the event are known to not reach that level of tawatur. if you do not understand mustalah al-hadeeth, you will not understand how a narration can be sound while certain extentions or variations will be unsound, or how certain parts of a narration will be mutawaatir while other extensions considered mawdoo'. there is no proof whatsoever that each and every person quoted was talking about the exact same matn, and there is reasonable evidence to show that certain areas are disputed. furthermore, shi'ite polemic sites are not independantly reliable sources unless they are stating what shi'ites believe. their words cannot be taken as fact. please review WP:RS. it is the requirement of editors to ensure that the authority speaking on a matter is relevant, suitable, and reliable. we cannot unquestioningly accept the narrative of a website known for misinformation. quoting sunni texts does not matter at all because it has not been shown that they all report the exact same matn as shi'i sources report. please understand this. thanks. ITAQALLAH 07:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

also, nobody is saying to not mention ghadir here. it is inaccurate to use the exact narrative as described from the website given as it is not a reliable source. there is another article where you can put in all the variations you want. ITAQALLAH 07:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

appreciating you for your valuable information, I disagree with you in some cases. 1- Shiite sites are reliable not only as Shiite POV, if they quote Sunni Hadiths in that case too. 2- I think we can find some quotations in the Ghadir sermon which almost all sources have narrated it with minor differences or at least we can put some part of it without quotation mark on the basis of Sunni and Shiite narrations. 3- We can put some parts with lower reliability and say what sources narrate it. Also we mention this part is less credible among Muslims or just credible between Shiites. 4- At the end if you want to help to edit this article write your favorite edition here.--Sa.vakilian 07:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

1. many of them are not honest in what they relate and i can testify to that. more often than not they do not quote the relevant takhreej. no point quoting a hadeeth from a sunni work if the hadeeth is mawdoo'
2. only shi'ites tend to regard ghadeer to be extremely significant to the life of 'Ali because according to their versions it has certain implications. however, we already have the other article where all the versions can be mentioned. it is not approprate to replicate that all here as per WP:NPOV (undue weight). i would endorse a brief narrative of ghadeer containing a version which is acceptable to all. ITAQALLAH 07:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we can rely on some books like [http://www.mtlib.com/books/toroq/index.php رسالة طرق حديث

من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه] and edit this part.--Sa.vakilian 10:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

There are some books in National Library of Iran which are wriiten by Sunnis scholars to prove that the hadith of Ghadir is correct and Mutawatir. All of them emphasize that Muhammad has said "Who ever that I'm his mowla(leader/master) So Ali is his mowla(Leader-master)." These books are published in qom. [3][4]

• "The ways of Hadith Ghadir narrated by Abibakr ibn Abi Shaybah and Ahmad ibn Hanbal and ..."

" طرق حديث الغدير برواية أبى بكر ابن أبى شيبة و" Pub:Dilile ma[5] --- WID-LC:BP145 / 2الف4غ --- ISBN: 964-397-169-4 ---Language:Arabic --- [6]

• "The ways of Hadith Alghadir" "طرق حديث الغدrير" ---writer:Ali ibn Hasan Ashafei ibn Asaker --- Pub:Dilile ma --- WID-LC:BP145/ 2الف4غ--- ISBN:964-397-170-8 ---Language:Arabic --- [7]
• "The ways of hadith man konto mowlah faalion mowlah" "طرق حديث من كنت مولاه فعلى مولاه"

--- writer: Shamsaddin zahabi --- Pub: Dilile ma --- WID-LC:BP233/5 ر9ذ / 52 --- ISBN:964-7990-06-5 --- lan:arabic [8]--Sa.vakilian 14:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

presenting an iraani press for a topic like this does not help the issue at all. we have already discussed the issue of tawatur (ad nauseum) and how the event and much of the speech is agreed upon but certain parts are considered either fabricated, unsound or not to the level of tawatur according to muhaddithoon. we have already discussed regarding the book of adh-dhahabi. it is not even mentioned on mainstream websites: whereas all of dhahabi's books are well known, printed in many editions by various presses and are traceable to him.

this is what i propose: i think what we should focus on is working on a narrative which we both find acceptable. i have no problem with the mawla narration being included in the narrative. give me a bit of time and i will propose a version and then we can work on the issues from there. how does that sound? ITAQALLAH 14:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? What is your problem if you have no problem with the mawla narration being included in the narrative?--Sa.vakilian 16:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

if you think all of this has just been about the mawla phrase then you have misunderstood the issue entirely. the mawla issue is disputed over but i think it merits mention as there are credible sources saying it is sound. however, the context of it and the general narrative you proposed in the article is not currently acceptable due to its one-sided POV. certain parts are either irrelevant or generally highly dubious such as the passage afterward about ba'yah and 'umar's reported congratulation (as said before, i did not find it in al-musnad and it requires the relevant tasheeh) which is only found on non-reliable shi'ite websites and not considered to be authentic by sunnis. that passage of itself does not merit mention IMO, but give me some time to propose a slightly altered version. is that ok with you or not? ITAQALLAH 17:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If you had written more specific sentences like now, we could have achieved result sooner. --Sa.vakilian 17:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your eddition except "this part:"Although its authenticity is disputed"--Sa.vakilian 17:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Also added Shi'a references.--Sa.vakilian 17:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

what about phrasing it like this: "Some authorities report (although its authenticity is disputed[15]) that Muhammad then proclaimed.."? ITAQALLAH 18:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I propose this :"All of Shi'a and most of Sunni scholars admit or believe". Also I want to add the some of Suffis's idea:"This was the declaration of ‘Alī’s spiritual sovereignty and its unconditional acceptance is binding on the believers till the Day of Judgment. "[9]--Sa.vakilian 18:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)