Talk:American imperialism

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Uh, why is China shown as gray instead of light orange in the image used in this article's main infobox?[edit]

Isn't the People's Republic of China a communist nation? Since it obviously is, then why is it shown in gray instead of light orange on the map that happens to be in the extreme top of the main Infobox?

Sorry, but apparently the File talk page guidelines don't allow for me to put this there, which is why I took this discussion to this talk page. 69.108.76.189 (talk) 01:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... The Image page at File:United States Soviet Union Locator.png doesn't seem to describe what the image is intended to illustrate, and its talk page is blank. Some of the comments in the file history speak of the Soviet sphere of influence, though I can't guess from info there what date or date range the image intends to illustrate. The image caption in this article says that the image shows Cold War spheres of influence of the U.S. (light green) and Soviet Union (light orange). China is not mentioned. The image is also used in the Soviet Union–United States relations article, and it appears to be used there to depict the U.S. and Soviet spheres of influence at the end of the Cold War. Some further relevant info might be found in the Sphere of influence#Cold War and Sino-Soviet split articles. It appears to me that this is badly in need of clarification on the image page. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Just because a country is communist, that doesnt mean they get along with all the other communist countries. In fact China and the USSR went to war in 1969. That's why China is marked as outside the USSR's 'sphere of influnce.' Mdw0 (talk) 08:32, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The illustration shows spheres of influence during the final phase of the cold war. By this time, China was clearly no longer aligned with the U.S.S.R. I'm not even sure at all that China "clearly is" a communist country anyway, being more of a state-capitalist sort of system, but that's another discussion entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.252.42.161 (talk) 00:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Jefferson quote[edit]

I've taken the [sic.] out of the Thomas Jefferson quote in the lead sentence of the History section. It seemed to me that this was being used to indicate doubt in Wikipedia's editorial voice about the content or import of the quote rather than (as the sic article describes it) to indicate that the quotation has been transcribed exactly as found in the original source, complete with any erroneous spelling or other nonstandard presentation.

The quote was originally added (with the [sic.] present) in this December 2009 edit as a followup to a Donald Rumsfeld quote added at the same time. The Rumsfeld quote was removed in this February 2011 edit. I've removed the cite of this Max Boot opinion piece. That cite (which seems to have used the {{cite book}} citation template inappropriately) appears to have been added in order to support the now-removed Rumsfeld quote, and seems no longer needed.

The article cites (LaFeber 1993) in support of the Jefferson quote. I've fleshed out that cite a bit further, but found that source not previewable online. I found that same quote (without the [sic]) in another source which is previewable online, and which also cites (LaFeber 1993). I've added a cite of that second supporting source to the article. I've also tweaked the text of the quote, moving the word until outside of the quoted text, because that is the way that source I've added quotes it. I don't know whether the LeFeber source has that word inside or outside of the quoted text.

That source I've added presents the Jefferson quote specifically in reference to "keeping foreign powers out of the Caribbean and Latin America." The article, however, seems to imply something else -- that Jefferson meant it in anticipation of the fall of the Spanish empire. I haven't changed this in the article, but perhaps it ought to be changed. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Why almost no discussion of actual imperialism?[edit]

This article doesn't even mention the Philippines, the Panama Canal Zone, and plenty of other places. The pseudo-imperialism of the US of the cold war and subsequently is definitely interesting and has a place in this article, but it is secondary in importance to the actual empire that the US built in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.28.88 (talk) 12:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this article should focus on 1895-1945, the Mexican War, and perhaps a few other examples of military expansion. Post-WWII overseas military bases and military conflicts also deserve some mention, as does American cultural influence around the world, since this is sometimes referred to as cultural imperialism or soft power. (And Manifest Destiny, various peaceful land purchases, etc.) There's plenty of American imperialism to cover without the article being the propaganda piece it currently is.--Wikimedes (talk) 18:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
I think the main problem is that 18th and 19th century imperialism is randomly interspersed with information about Cold War imperialism. A distinction has to be made and the article must be broken up. KingHiggins (talk) 10:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

About the section "US foreign policy debate"[edit]

It immediately begins with a discussion of annexation sourced to a report by the US congress, and is followed by completely unconnected quotes regarding American imperialism. I don't even know where to begin with fixing this section. What are we trying to describe? A debate within the US of what it should do with regards to empire building? A debate from outside the US with regards to what it is doing? Are we describing imperial efforts throughout history? At inception? During the Cold War? After the Cold War? This section is completely directionless and seems to be a dumping ground for every anon and passing editor to add their favorite quote. I've added a rewrite template, and I don't expect any immediate action. This is only a justification for that template if anyone is actually watching. PraetorianFury (talk) 23:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Feverishly???!?![edit]

Looking at this edit, the assertion elsewhere in the edited paragraph that the U.S. was feverishly seeking territories such as Hawaii and Latin America in the late 19th century caught my eye. My reaction was: "Feverishly???!?!". I see that this was added without comment or support in this December 2013 edit (one edit in this series of six).

I don't have the time to get into this now, and I don't have the background to do so without boning up a lot. I do want to flag it as possibly needing attention, though. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

What's wrong with this map?[edit]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USAsphere.svg

I've tried to include this map in the article when it was entitled "US de facto empire".

Contributor SantiLak disagreed with the apparently subjective title of the map and removed it.

I've renamed the map as "USA treaties and military facilities" and the file as USAsphere instead of USempire.

I think this is enough to include it at least in the USA military bases subentry.

Please feel free to answer, I need consensus according to Mlpearc to include this map into this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagihuin (talkcontribs) 01:44, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

At first I thought there was nothing wrong with it, apart from being cluttered and ugly. And that it combines economic free trade areas with military ones without saying why. And that it repeats the military bases map at the beginning of the article.Mdw0 (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I've got a couple of concerns, one specific and one general.
  • The specific concern is a star indicating "Military facilities and CIA locations" at Manila, Philippines. What does this represent? Does this represent something growing out of the US/RP Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement?
  • The general concern is that the image essentially makes a large number of specific unsupported visual assertions about the article topic which are not visual depictions of supported or supportable assertions made textually in the article. This is more of a problem with some images than with others. I see this image and (many) others like it as being a significant problem in this regard. This has been discussed here and elsewhere but, as far as I know, it remains unaddressed.
Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:56, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I think there is nothing wrong about this map and I support its inclusion into the article. About the concerns you propose:
1. I see the star in Philippines is directly shown in one of the sources linked in the map. https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/fo1029_usbases12001.gif There is a spot in Philippines and it explains it with a text besides it. It clearly says US military units continue using facilities there.
2. Wtmitchell, military and economic power are many times related to each other, so it's perfectly reasonable to sum all the treaties in a single map. And by the way, that is the best way to reflect the power projection of a superpower like the US, which fits perfectly with the main topic (American Imperialism). We wouldn't talk about imperialism without military nor economic projections, would we?
LadyBeth (talk) 08:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


The main opposer here is an user named Santilak, which was invited to this talk but he prefered to avoid it and now he's conducting a "seek and destroy" policy all over my contributions, which is sad. He is still invited here to explain why he disagrees to include a map showing economic and military treaties in an American Imperialism entry, which is perfectly reasonable. Nagihuin (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
@LadyBeth: You must be a good friend of Nagihuin, seems you showed up just in time to help your friend. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


I thank everybody helping me in this stupid dispute, which never had to be born. There is also an interesting case of Wikipedia Administrators giving up a neutral position and acting actively against one of the parts in a dispute, which is really meaningful. Nagihuin (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2015 (UTC)