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Talk:Bombardment of Algiers (1688)

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September 2022

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The French failed to achieve their objective (to force Mezzo Morto to sign a treaty), therefore, the result cannot be anything but a defeat. The treaty that was signed later has nothing to do with the result of this battle. M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here are two other sources: the first is about Mezzo Morto,[1] while the second describes how this battle is remembered.[2] M.Bitton (talk) 19:14, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@82.18.157.51:Do you have a Wikipedia account? I ask here since I'm not sure you'll be reading your talk page. M.Bitton (talk) 19:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t agree with that assessment. The French failed to force Mezzo Morto to sign a treaty but the bombardment lead to his replacement by Hadj Chabane who signed a treaty with France in 1690. The city also suffered heavy damaged which is mentioned in the article. I don’t think this was a French nor an Algerian victory. I think the result box should reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.157.51 (talk) 19:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They failed to achieve their objective, therefore, it's a defeat. Can you please answer my question (see my first comment))? I assume that you read the notice on your talk page. M.Bitton (talk) 19:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t have an account but I have read my talk page. Sometimes military actions do not result in defeat nor victory. However this bombardment led to the french achieving their objective of getting Algeria to sign a peace treaty. As I mentioned the bombardment was the reason Mezzo Morto was replaced which led to his successor signing a peace treaty. So I would not call this an Algerian victory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.157.51 (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, they didn't force Mezzomorto to sign anything. In fact, right after this battle, he started fresh attacks against anything French. M.Bitton (talk) 19:48, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I never said they did force Mezzo Morto to sign anything but this battle led to his downfall and he was replaced shortly afterwards with someone who signed a treaty with France. So I don’t think this bombardment can be considered an Algerian victory when the ultimate result of the bombardment was the signing of a peace treaty between France and Algeria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.157.51 (talk) 19:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No it didn't. Please read the sources that I cited as well as this one[3] (which will help you have a better understanding of the subject). M.Bitton (talk) 19:58, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give me the page numbers I need to look at for each source if you don’t mind? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.157.51 (talk) 20:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I already have. I even linked directly to the pages (for your convenience). M.Bitton (talk) 20:04, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again non of your sources mention an "Algerian victory" they just mention the French fleet withdrew and Mezzo-Morto was removed from power shortly after. This bombardment cannot be considered an Algerian victory for two reasons:

1. The City was heavily damaged in the bombardment

2. The bombardment led to peace being signed between Algeria and France the next year

This source calls the bombardment "the destruction of the city of Algiers" [4]

This source from a merchant from Algiers describes the destruction:

“The city has been absolutely crushed, the five ships that were in the harbor are sunk. Fort Matifou with its fifteen pieces of cannon, completely razed, Algiers is only a ruin, the mosques and the house of the Dey are on the ground. The bombs overran the upper town and broke the aqueducts. The lantern, the mole and the construction site are badly damaged. Mezzo-Morto was wounded twice, the inhabitants having retired to the countryside, suffered little." [5]

Another source:

"For a fortnight the fire of the galliots did not cease and wrought frightful ravages in Algiers. Ten thousand bombs were dropped; they had overthrown a great number of houses, killed many inhabitants, sunk five large corsairs, dismantled most of the batteries, and razed the Fanal tower". [6]

This source explains that the bombardment was one of the main factors in Mezzo-Morte being replaced as the Algiers which led to his successor making peace. "Famine reigned, the Janissaries, returning from the siege of Oran, had found their homes destroyed, did not hide their discontent, revolts broke out every day".[7] This source also includes another quotes from the the first source I listed about the bombardment.

The aftermath section of this article even states the rule Mezzo-Morte was destabilised by the bombardment meaning he had to flee the city.[8]

So in summary this bombardment cannot be considered an Algerian victory as it caused massive destruction to the city (not really something that happens if the city is victorious) and it caused the rule of Mezzo-Morte to be destabilised which led to a peace treaty being signed the following year and it being ratified by France in 1690 (which was the main French goal). Plus your sources don't mention anything about an "Algerian victory" so the only sensible option is to class the result as a "French withdrawal" which most of your sources, my sources and the sources in the article do actually state.

You're just making me repeat myself unnecessarily. Not only did the French fail to achieve their objective (to force the Mezzo Morto to sign a treaty), their failed attack pushed him to launch attacks against the French coastline, therefore, this battle is a French defeat (regardless of how you look at it). M.Bitton (talk) 22:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]


References

  1. ^ Alexander Mikaberidze (2011). Conflict and Conquest in the Islamic World A Historical Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. p. 356. ISBN 978-1-59884-336-1.
  2. ^ By Tony Claydon, Charles-Édouard Levillain (2016). Louis XIV Outside In Images of the Sun King Beyond France, 1661-1715. Routledge. p. 138. ISBN 978-1-317-10324-0.
  3. ^ Phillip C. Naylor (2006). Historical Dictionary of Algeria. Scarecrow Press. p. 279. ISBN 978-0-8108-6480-1.
  4. ^ Histoire de France, sous le regne de Louis XIV by Larrey, Isaac de, 1638-1719; Chez Michel Bohm & Compagnie page 244-245 https://archive.org/details/histoiredefranc04larrgoog/page/242/mode/2up
  5. ^ Extrait d'une lettre escrite d'Alger le 24 Avril 1689 https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Extrait_d_une_lettre_escrite_d_Alger_le_24_Avril_1?id=28VWAAAAcAAJ&gl=US
  6. ^ Bombardement d’Alger sous Louis XIV http://quintessences.unblog.fr/2020/01/05/bombardement-dalger-sous-louis-xiv/
  7. ^ Relations entre la France et la Régence d’Alger http://algeroisementvotre.free.fr/site0301/regence/regen014.html
  8. ^ Jörg Manfred Mössner (10 October 2013). Die Völkerrechtspersönlichkeit und die Völkerrechtspraxis der Barbareskenstaaten: (Algier, Tripolis, Tunis 1518-1830). De Gruyter. p. 15. ISBN 978-3-11-169567-9.

It can’t be classed as a defeat because the bombardment led to France achieving it’s goal of signing a peace treaty with Algeria in 1689/1690. This peace treaty was only signed because of this bombardment. The french did not care if it was Mezzo-Morte who signed the treaty or his successor they were not personally at war with one man (Mezzo-Morte) they were at war with an entire state (Algeria) and this bombardment led to peace being achieved so it did help France achieve its goal. The french withdrew and Algiers was heavily damaged, there are no winners here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.157.51 (talk) 23:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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