Talk:Cargo cult/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Bad edit has taken article backwards

Previous article was far better. Several problems with the current draft:

1) Cargo cults were not generally about purifying communities from white influence. They were often about restoring a position of mastery between the community and its social and technical world, and this involved correction of the colonial race imbalance. How can one seriously entretain, however, that a cargo cult was devoid of 'white influence', as opposed to whites, when absorbing and articulating the technology of the whites in terms of local culture was the main activity pursued by these movements?

Point made. Tazmaniacs

2) It is misleading to say that most anthropologists today think cargo cults were a 'misnomer', without explaining that there are different classes of movements and some of these are almost universally accepted as involving a 'cargo belief', while others, such as the native kampani style of movement were mostly branded as cargo cult by their political enemies. In fact, to say it was a misnomer without noting that this was a politically motivated one with certain resonances with colonialism is also very misleading.

Mmm... naming is always political, isn't it? Tazmaniacs

3) These are not points of opinion, but of fact. As for (1) see Andrew Lattas Cultures of Secrecy and Whitehouse Inside the Cult for contemporary examples, Lawrence Road Belong Cargo, innumerable articles in Oceania and Man - the 'purification' of communities does occur in a broad cross-section of these very heterogeneous movements, but the expulsion of white influence is rare. The article confuses revitalization and conservative movements with cargo cults. As for (2), this is a point of controversy in the literature and if presented should be presented as such. In fact, there are many anthropologists who do not subscribe to the view that cargo beliefs did not obtain in any movements; by my own review of the literature, probably a plurality if not a majority.

4) The view that cargo cults captured the imagination of first world people and that is why they continue to be talked about has some merit, as documented by L Lindstrom, who should be referenced. However, there are innumerable examples of continued cargo cults in Melanesia today, eg. Lattas; and the problem of interpreting the history of these social movements is a real one, and treated as such by anthropologists even when they make arguments to the effect that cargo cult talk is a distortion. The article fails to explain this crucial point.

I could'nt more agree. Tazmaniacs

5) The article no longer explains something of the history of these movements, which was interesting and informative, and indeed crucial for the substantiation of the points made. Instead, we now have mostly cases of cargo cult from the west. The article has also deleted the link to the Vailala Madness, the earliest well-documented such movement.

6) I propose breaking the article into disambiguated sections, or alternatively, confining the derivative usages - cargo cult science, etc... - to a minor section.

--To the above unnamed author: You make good points. Why don't you fix the article? You obviously have the background to do a competent job. --Barefootmatt 21:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Edited to add: I've reinserted the "history" section from a previous version. If you have more to add or clarify, go at it. --Barefootmatt 21:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Analogues in modern culture

Much of the text in the section "analogues in modern culture" reads like a typical workplace rant about management and does not seem to me to be worthy of including in a project that wants to be encyclopaedic. I'm loath to drop it entirely though.

And of course calling the section "analogues in *modern* culture" implies that all other instances are not modern, which is odd for something that exists right into the present day. I'll shortly rename it to "analogues in *western* culture". 217.206.131.214 09:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is serious? / Ethnocentrism

Wow, really, Cargo cults? I wonder if this is some tongue in cheek joke.

No joke. If you are interested in learning more, consult some of the references listed in the article. Rex 03:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yep it's serious. The way it's written is not. Why? In two words, we're making fun of them. Not a wrong in itself (it is quite funny!), but a misunderstanding for sure. We relate that attitude to our mentality (basic ethnocentrism) instead of trying to analyse the phenomenon from "their point of view". That's of course a bit harder. But would certainly eliminate terms like:

• "they rationalize their attitude" (our Occidental POV);
• "The cult participants generally do not fully understand the significance of manufacturing or commerce." (true; but, on the other side, maybe we don't fully understand the significance of their way of "trading" ?
• "These cults are a response to the resulting confusion and insecurity." (nice Freudian interpretation - totally ethnocentric)
• "Today, most historians and anthropologists argue that the term 'Cargo Cult' is a misnomer that describes a variety of phenomena" Ah, last sentence of the introduction, first true NPOV sentence...
• "For this reason, and possibly many others, the cults have been labelled millennialist, in the sense of a utopian future brought about by a messiah." Yeah, and isn't a messiah first a Jewish and Christian invention?

This article is a mix of ethnocentrism & therefore full of what you could call anachronisms. However, I agree that "cargo cults" is a good idea - for a role-playing game? Tazmaniacs

I agree that the entire segment: "The cult participants generally do not fully understand the significance of manufacturing or commerce. They have limited purchasing ability. Their understanding of western society, religion, and economics may be rudimentary. These cults are a response to the resulting confusion and insecurity. They rationalize their situation by reference to religious and magical symbols they associate with Christianity and modern western society." is extremely problematic. It smacks of Cultural imperialism. Having studied this phenomenon, in the context of the meeting of two cultures; one aboriginal and the other colonial, what took place can only really be considered a perfectly logical reaction. The article paints it as "Oh ho! Look at those funny primitive savages! Aren't they wacky?!!"

With a better understanding of the native perspective, an even bleaker picture is presented of the colonial cultures.

Steve Lowther 05:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Popular reference=

How about the 1980 film "The Gods Must be Crazy", in which a tribe starts a cargo cult around a Coke bottle? The Wikipedia article on this film references cargo cults.

• I suspect whoever added this has not seen the film. The group depicted was not a tribe but a troop of about 24 souls. They are depicted as first accepting the 'gift' from the gods as extremely useful, but fights break out over who gets to use it, which result in injury and death. Concluding that the gods must be crazy, they decide to return the 'gift' rather than starting a cult to get more. I'm changing the reference to present it as a counter example.Lee 07:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Another Modern Example

Detractors of Peak Oil Theory who believe they are entitled to an unsustanable energy-intensive lifestyle that is destroying the earth while the fossil fuel required to support it dwindles away. This is a more conservative version of the traditional cargo cult where instead of mimicing the behavior of another new culture the practitioner attempts to mimic the previous generations that occurred in the post-WW II period of rapidly expanding natural resource consumption. In the face of a collapsing economy and increases in weather-related natural disasters brought on by the temporary and ending cheap-and-plentiful energy period the practitioner of this form of cargo cult puts the blame on everything except his or her unsustanable approach to living. As the world changes more and more their industrialized approach to life becomes increasingly absurdly out-of-sync with the reality of their condition.

[Technology Will Solve All Oil and Gas Supply Problems: The "Cargo-Cult" of the Modern World By Francis de Winter, August 2003]

This is not a "true cargo cult" hence, but a metaphor of a cargo cult. Nothing wrong about it, as long as nobody mistake it for the "real thing". Tazmaniacs

Yes, this is a metaphor that was created by an anti-capitalist. I'm sure we could go into Karl Marx's Fetishism of Commodities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.6.214 (talk) 01:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverse Cargo Cult

(Please consider that my tongue is firmly in my cheek) Is there such a thing as a reverse cargo cult? Some of us (modern) people look to the past and the more privative to, in a way, grab the spiritual power of the ancients. Consider that some modern people (read: my fiancée) wear "tribal" tattoos. Some non-Ojibwe put up a dreamcatcher on their walls or windows. Mark Forest (talk) 18:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

charlatans

The article says ...no one who participated in a cargo cult actually knew that they were doing so... I read accounts of the cargo cults that said that after World War II charlatans set themselves up and tricked those who really believed that they could lead them to cargo, in return for devotion and donations.

Just more pseudo-investigative clap trap that purports to be a serious 'scientific' exploration of Cargo Cult history while betraying the author's shallow, inflammatory view point. Desribing "New Zealand's optimistic adoption of liberal economic policies in the 1980s as "cargo cult capitalism" and "Maoism has been referred to as "cargo cult Marxism" and "The term "cargo cult software engineering" has been coined in the field of software engineering to describe a characteristic of unsuccessful software development organisations that slavishly imitate the working methods of more successful development organisations".

Let me guess - young, dull and AUSTRALIAN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.85.115 (talk) 12:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Analogies: misapplied?

"Without fulfilling the definition of the term, the cargo cult has been misapplied as an analogy to describe certain phenomena." I don't see how any of these are misapplied. IOW, they seem like good analogies. Am I misunderstanding what a cargo cult is? 65.57.245.11 (talk) 22:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Religious or Magical?

It seems to me that "magical" practice might be more accurate than "religious" in the definition, because those practising it use symbols of the things they want to gain material wealth. So it seems to be more about doing the proper ritual than venerating an admired deity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monado (talk • contribs) 17:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Pending cites

I've moved this here so it can be cited and rewritten to not be so weasely.YobMod 13:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Today, many historians and anthropologists argue that popular use of the term "cargo cult" is inaccurate and describes a variety of phenomena. However, the idea has captured the imagination of many people in developed nations, and the term is used today without exactitude. Because of this misunderstanding, and possibly many other reasons, the cults have been labeled by some as millenarian, although they do not resemble the conventional definition of a spiritual reward due to arrive, but in the sense that they hold that receipt of all these material goods and wealth is imminent or will come about if they perform certain religious rituals.

Dawkins

Unless I am mistaken, the "comparison with other religions" is original research or supposition. Wasn't Dawkins using Cargo Cults in his book as evidence that there is a predisposition for humans to create religions i.e. it is genetically programed (through natural selection)? (Later I believe he asserts that religion is actually a by-product of a basic human drive.) Hence, what is currently written in the article is misleading. Candy (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC) (article edited for sig .. wasn't logged in)

Is Dawkins an authority on the subject of comparative religion / anthropology? Cargo cults include both religious and ritual aspects, just like many other religions/cultures. Not sure why they should be singled out as a "cult" non-comparable to other religions. Whatever Dawkins may be citing cargo cults as an argument for, he is likely making the error of argumentum ad populem, assuming that an educated anthropologist would naturally find the cargo cult phenomenon somehow bizarre and extreme. Or he is simply assuming that indigenous folkways (like classical music?) are of genetic origin and not a fortuitous byproduct of human social and cultural evolution. --berr 216.15.63.67 (talk) 09:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Dawkins is published in several very relevant fields, beyond the popular science writing for which he is best known. He has published academic papers on ethology, sociobiology, and evolutionary biology, which I would say qualifies him to speak about this subject. I haven't read his pop science book The God Delusion, which is what I assume we're talking about here, but from what I know of Dawkins I highly doubt he would claim cargo cults were much more "bizarre and extreme" than any other religious practice. Rather, I assume he's saying that humans have a predisposition to create religious systems, even when rational inquiry can show their claims to be untenable. I'd think Dawkins would think that cargo cults are pretty similar to all religions, they're just an easy target for atheist scorn. --Cúchullain ^t/c 14:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Tom Navy

There seems to be no wikipedia article or subject on Tom Navy, another figure in the Tanna "cargo cult" religion according to the recent TV documentary Meet The Natives. Can someone knowledgeable create one, since it is obviously notable?

(Several adherents of the Tanna cargo cult met with former Secretary of State Colin Powell to present him a relic left behind by Tom Navy, as a diplomatic engagement to encourage President Obama to end the Iraq war. For more information see the section under Tanna (island).)

In fact, I have read about Tom Navy and John Frum before, in less encyclopedic, more academic sources so I'm surprised WP covers the entire subject so lightly.

Also, the article makes a number of sweeping POV and synthetic statements about the "true meaning" of cargo cults and how they develop and the "errors of logic" they are based on.

If you look at the vast majority of human ritual (regardless of ones religious belief or lack thereof), you will see they are based on the same phenomena as are at the root of cargo cults. And yes, that is a POV statement, but helpful to think about when editing articles about so-called "cults".

The references commentators have given "yeah, yeah, it's about people who build airstrips thinking planes will come" are greatly simplifying things and probably shouldn't be editing an article about such a culturally specific topic. -- berr 216.15.63.67 (talk) 08:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Meet the Natives is not a reliable source. If there are better sources for the information it could possibly be included. The article does need a lot of work, and there are any number of good sources to work with.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

• These edits have added some quite specific information about one or two extant cults and related recent events into a section which, as I envisaged it, should be about the general characteristics of cargo cults. I feel that these edits stray off-topic. I'm just noting here for now as I'm not quite sure what to do about it. 81.157.197.148 (talk) 04:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC).

I agree that these edits are off topic, and have removed this language (although I see that it has been removed before, and been re-added). Tim Ross (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Occupy Wallstreet?

When reading this article I found that it was stating the Occupy Wall Street movement as a cargo cult. I viewed this as just a cheap shot at said movement but if there is actually evidence that they are a cargo cult then I was wrong but I think I was right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.104.158 (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes - you were quite right to remove it - it is nonsensical, even as a metaphor. I see that it was only added 10 minutes before you removed it, and I suspect that someone else would have done the same soon after. Thanks though - the sooner things like this get taken down, the less incentive there is for them to be repeated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed

The part of the article which refers to birth control in Africa desperately needs citation. If it's true, it's a fascinating event and give insight into human behaviour. However, it is so vague and unspecific: which aid organisation? Where in Africa? When did this occur? Without some sort of verification, this does strike me as being likely untrue - a potshot at the unenlightened natives. If it is true, can someone provide a citation, and more specifics?

I agree with the discursant above - the abacus birth control part of the article smacks of typical racism/snobbery coming out in folklore - what's often called an Urban Myth. I really think it adds nothing without very detailed citation.

I've moved the following from the article and placed it here. I study Hmong history and culture and I have never heard of this. It sounds like the original editor may be confusing elements of the Hmong exodus from Laos, the rise of the "Chao Fa" millennial movement, and other stories.

• "A religion described as a "cargo cult" developed during the Vietnam War among some of the Hmong people of Southeast Asia. The core of their beliefs was that the second coming of Jesus Christ was imminent, only this time he would arrive wearing camouflage fatigues driving a military jeep to come and take them away to the promised land."

Let's at least find a reliable reference before it is restored. Nposs 17:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The reference is from George Linwood Barney,'The Meo of Xieng Khouang Province', Laos Project Papers, Univ. Mass. Amherst 1967; edited 1990 and copyright to Joel Halpern, Dept. Anthropology,Univ. California. You can find the Halpern papers etc. online. Also see Barney's MA thesis at Univ. Minnesota, 1957, Christianity and Innovation in Meo Culture. There are also other refs to the movement, like Ncholas Tapp 1989 Sovereignty and Rebellion (OUP). .The belief was that Christ would come in a keep, in US Army unform, handing our rifles to the Hmong. If anyone has the energy, they might put this citation back in again, since it is correct;I am not sure how to do it.58.41.131.209 (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

---

How about we tell OrphanBot to go straight to hell and put the pictures back the way they were? The picture of the guy with the circuit board tattoo'd on his back made the article.

Why does the article say "Eventually the cargo cults petered out," when this article, the discussion below, and other sources indicate cargo cults are still very much alive, and possibly increasing?

--Sailboatd2

"When Westerners explained to them that the riches came from labor and that islanders would get them as well if they worked hard enough, the cultists couldn't help noticing that, in missions and camps, islanders were doing the hardest work but got the least of the goods."

I have to ask - as this paragraph looks to be nothing more than a gratuitous potshot at "the West," which in this context was in the process of removing a genocidal army from many Pacific islands - did this entry's author speak to cultists who said, "I couldn't help noticing that, in missions and camps, we islanders were doing the hardest work but got the least of the goods."

How else would one know this? Having studied cargo cultists, I can't find any reference to any islander ever making an observation remotely like the one contained in the paragraph above, and for that reason, I think that that paragraph should be removed from this entry.

Having studied this myself, I find the above hard to believe. The so-called "gratuitous pot shot at the west" was an important development in the history of these events, at least in so far as the cargo cults of north central Papua. This took place quite early in their recorded history. I'm also a bit baffled as to what is being implied in the criticism; that the natives didn't work harder than the missionaries, that the natives didn't fail to become wealthy or that the natives were so clueless that they wouldn't have noticed the discrepency? Or perhaps the critic is suggesting that no one ever told the natives that hard work would provide them with wealth.

Steve Lowther 05:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

---

This seems a bit nit-picky to me. It appears the author of the article deduced, or perhaps his research indicated, that the demise of the various cargo cults was due to a lack of positive reinforcement to the cultists. I don't think there needs to be eye witness testimony for such a statement to hold up.

"When Westerners explained to them that the riches came from labor and that islanders would get them as well if they worked hard enough, the cultists couldn't help noticing that, in missions and camps, islanders were doing the hardest work but got the least of the goods."

I agree, this paragraph does seem to stick out like a sore thumb. Although the relationship with the decline of the cargo cult can perhaps be noted, perhaps it should be put into that context, as more of a supporting argument, rather than such a Anti-Western Injection as this appears to be. However, perhaps some more facts should be presented before even this is done - right now the argument for such doesn't seem that well - almost ailing, if you will.

Unsubstantiated causal attributions

This article makes unsubstantiated causal attributions (what causes what). Since it is impossible to prove exactly what the causes for the cults were, the article should begin with a very descriptive section, and it should put theoretical expalantions as to why the cults happened and what caused them in a separate section that is appropriately labelled. Credit should be given to the theorists and to the people who described the cults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.250.245 (talk) 14:45, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an objective analysis of the causes of cargo cults in Glynn Cochrane's "Big Men and Cargo Cults", Oxford University Press, London, 1970. The Nobel Laureate physicist Richard P. Feynman also analyses them and the analogy for fashionable science funding inspired crackpotism (financial project motivations for research) in his 1974 essay "Cargo Cult Science" [1]. Photocopier (talk) 00:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Did it ever actually work?

Has anyone run across a description of a successful cargo cult activity? In other words, did airmen ever get confused in bad weather and drop supplies to one of the mock-up airstrips? In the war, did either side ever pay cargo cultists to construct their airstrips, to confuse enemy intelligence? All descriptions treat these people like they were mad, yet in the fog of war you'd think they'd have had to have succeeded sometime. Mike Serfas 17:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Most of the "cults" apparently got going after the war was over, or the fighting had passed by an area... AnonMoos 08:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You could argue that the John Frum cult has a halfway chance of success - it's not impossible that it will wind up becoming a 'cult' tourist attraction, dragging in the desired Americans and their cash/cargo to Tanna, Vanuatu. There are worse places to spend your vacation than a tropical island where the inhabitants welcome you as harbingers of their messiah. Rwestera 05:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It certainly has - the cargo cult activities on Vanuatu have attracted significant tourism, income and 'cargo'. In an odd twist of fate, performing the rituals does, indeed, produce the desired results. It actually seems that the cult may be a pretty sophisticated way to extract cash from tourists. Troggalot 03:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there were some cases like this, where planes landed in unofficial airstrips. Note also that the constuction of unofficial airstrips was taken to be evidence of cargo cult, when sometimes people built airstrips because they, like, wanted planes to land and bring them stuff - which is kind of rational, if you live somewhere where there is no road. The cargo idea is that people built landing strips so that the *ancestors* would bring things. Another aspect of this is nicely pictured in the movie First Contact - the first whites to go into the Highlands organized a mock ritual so that hundreds of men would pound the ground, and if they did this - apparently they mimed all this to the locals - a huge bird would come. Guess what - a huge bird came. With cargo. There are many other examples like this. Yet another take is from the example of things like the Hahalis Welfare Society and movements which were actually very sophisticated, though they were called 'cargo cults' (as an exercise in political slander). These movements caused serious political problems for the government, which would try to deflate support for the 'cults' by pumping money into local councils, building roads, schools, etc... So, as a kind of protest, some 'cults' worked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.143.143 (talk) 04:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"Lady Luck" is a modern example. Some strategies manage to defy statistics. Mind Freak lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.67.191 (talk) 08:54, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

The summary is poor

If you didn't know about cargo cults already, you'd have to read quite a few paragraphs before you get to the main point which is that indigenous people create mock-ups of aircraft and landing strips which is absolutely fascinating but I think is lost in the general babble.

I'd rather the facts were presented first and the discussion elaborated on why this behaviour occurs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.231.248 (talk) 21:49, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

See what I said two sections below. Cargo cults cover a wide-ranging religious phenomenon; what you're saying is like saying "the main point of Christmas is that indegenous people create mock-ups of fir trees in hopes that their spiritual leader will give them gifts." i.e. simplification; the purpose of WP should be to educate... --berr 216.15.63.67 (talk) 08:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

That's no excuse for an intro that goes on for a full page. 152.160.99.172 (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Better?Schrauwers (talk) 23:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

This article is a mess

It reads like an undergraduate essay, after being fed through a political spin-doctor's 'easy swipe at my opponent' machine. It tells us bugger-all about the context or dynamics of Cargo Cults, and a great deal about the prejudices of those writing about them. Nothing new there - almost everyone who actually looks into the subject in any detail notices the same thing. Frankly, I think that the poor bloody 'subjects' of this exercise in metaphorical self-abuse have the right attitude - as Lamont Lindstrom noted during his ethnographic studies, they tend to treat 'Westerners' intent on dissecting the whole 'Cargo Cult' phenomenon with suspicion and disdain - mainly because it isn't a 'phenomenon' that arrived out of nowhere, dumped it's metaphors on the runway, and took off elsewhere. These were/are real people, experiencing real events, and interpreting them in the best way they can, with the limited knowledge they have, So are we. A little less bullpoop about 'advanced technology', and a little more emphasis on the actual historical experience of Melanesian societies might help readers to understand what was going on, if only a little... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:20, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The versions dating 2012 and earlier are a lot, lot better than the current one :-/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.223.135 (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Mixing Rituals and Science

Mixing religious rituals with science does not necessarily invalidate an experiment. If a Nobel prize winner kissed a rabbit's foot before performing the prize-winning experiment, should such an experiment be invalidated? Thus, the islanders could have been testing a cause-and-effect hypothesis and performing a ritual at the same time. It just happens that they had limited materials to fully clone the artifacts they believed triggered the deliveries. Such cloning could perhaps have worked if they mirrored an SOS message. --4.232.78.211 05:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Surely a key factor would have been that although the westerners were seen to engage in apparently meaningless rituals (from the natives' POV), e.g. marching up and down in formation, talking to boxes, erecting aerials and so on, they would hardly ever be observed to actually make any of the 'cargo' they used, whereas the natives would be from a largely self-sufficient culture where almost everyone could build a hut, make a spear, produce food and clothing etc. Add to that the fact that the 'cargo' sometimes really did literally "fall from the sky" and CC doesn't really look so foolish after all.82.153.120.179 (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Tidal Deification

I have noticed beach-combing rock and drift wood collectors, performing superstitious and ritualistic enticements. As if by pleasing Gods, the Ocean, or The objects themselves, a relative recurrence of the desired affect could be reached. However vital each activity may be in connecting to Earth's natural energy or resources, there is still a basic functioning process of discovery. When we gain the materials that sustain our health and in extreme cases overwhelm us with ecstasy, we learn about the chemistry and that possibility existing, we reorient ourselves to include them, direct ourselves to remember recent potentially causal activities, and intellectually calculate some possible origins. Basically, there's a learning curve. Contact leads to an estimation of saturation, which is tested repeatedly in adjacent environments. If calculations of the origin are correct, the frequency of discovery should increase. As well as with calculations of the mechanical process which delivers the material from it's origin to you. My theory is that we can know something is right in front of us and look right at it. It could even be important to us, but sometimes we just can't see it or believe what we're looking at. Deep down people have known that, so we do all kinds of strange things to reach a state of mind where we can tell our eyes to shut up. & tell our brains to shut up. because deep down we know something way more important is right there, & we need it.

This talk page is intended only for postings related to article content - which is based on published sources. It is not a forum for general discussion of cargo cults. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Disturbing

this concept is so disturbing to me, absolutely horrifying. 173.2.62.86 (talk) 07:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

This is not a forum. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

well, fuck you, too.

Introduction

The introduction to this subject is awful. Please consider editing it to comply with wikipedia guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.239.45.130 (talk) 19:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted to a version of the intro before the unhelpful material was added. The original is not perfect but I think it is much clearer and to the point. Ronnotel (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

It is 'to the point' only if the point is to ignore any scholarship less than about forty years old (and much scholarship which is older), and instead to present an over-simplistic and ahistorical 'western' view of the subject that portrays participants as cartoon 'primitives'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I've restored it, not because it's necessarily better for the intro, but because it's well-cited material that's a benefit to the article. The older intro wasn't an improvement.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Being well-cited is no indication of quality or balance. It is truly appalling. Maxchristian (talk) 22:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

People decrying ethnocentrism? In 2014? Really?

C'mon people, this article has been muddled significantly by the pointless argument over whether the terminology is ethnocentric or not. Ethnocentrism was the standard mode of human existence from time immemorial up til the end of World War II. It fell out of fashion due to the events of WWII but is coming roaring back now, as people are figuring out that the alternative is usually even more bloody and destructive. You can spend your time bashing ethnocentrism, or you can do something to improve your ethnicity and its standing. Guess which people choose which option?

Some good points though about how sometimes the cargo cult actually does achieve its goals - implying there are cunning minds, at least in some cases, operating the cults. So some of these people are very smart, and some of them are very stupid, which is the sort of diversity you'll find all over Earth. But let's not delude ourselves that wooden headphones attached to nothing are a social movement, and let's stop attacking people for name-calling, especially when the name-calling hits the nail on the head. Assuming wikipedia's old 30+ page list of ethnic slurs hasn't been edited into oblivion, a good read of said list should hopefully convince people that censoring words they don't like doesn't stop people from name-calling, it just makes them think up more names to call. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.187.45.179 (talk) 14:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

This isn't a forum, and you seem not to be proposing specific changes to the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Ancestral efficacy

From the entry: "...often linked to an ancestral efficacy thought to be recoverable by a return to traditional morality." Ancestral efficacy"? What does this mean? In plain, simple English.

Also from the entry: "A cargo cult is a kind of Melanesian millenarian movement..." Is there any reason why I can't take out "a kind of"? Risssa (talk) 03:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I've removed 'kind of'. It's some time since I've read Burridge, and I'm not sure what exactly 'ancestral efficacy' is supposed to mean - I'll see if I can track down the referenced material, and see if I can clarify this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Cargo cults specifically, please

This article now appears to be a tussle between several cultists...the intro needs fixing to give a concise meaning to the term "cargo cult". The reader does not want meaningless gibberish about "magical thinking" in the opening few sentences. About half the article appears to be cut-and-pasted from www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Cargo_cult, and very incompetently. The rant about Roger-nomics in New Zealand leads me to think that this is the work of an "academic" from an English midlands "university". I remember sitting on my apartment balcony in Suva, in 1988, eating some grilled Nautilus and reading an English marine biology text that claimed "no living example of the Nautilus has ever been observed...". Teach a parrot to say "millenarianism" and you have the world's most authoritative anthropologist. --Ketabatic (talk)

I'd have to agree. I've read the article and nowhere does it outline what a cargo cult actually is, which seems rather counter to idea of an encyclopedia article. The summary is too long and lacks actual factual detail and historical context for the term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.93.141 (talk) 07:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

This article in the news

This article has been cited here. Bearian (talk) 15:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

How is a personal blog 'the news'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:59, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality concern

The article opening includes judgmental language about the motivation and cause of "Cargo cult programming," implying that it's always a negative practice, and that it indicates lack of skill or competence. As a software engineer, I've seen this so many times, and it's frequently the result of an intelligent, well-intentioned individual making a decision with the information they have. It's not always a wise use of time to understand every detail of every "why" behind every line of code. Fountaingoats (talk) 23:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Reversion to a past version possible?

Would it be possible to wholesale revert this page to one of the previous versions, circa early 2012? The lead section in particular has become pretty dense and unreadable; unless our understanding of cargo cults has changed substantially in the last four years, the older versions seem much, much more comprehensible to Wikipedia's audience. Beige.librarian (talk) 04:40, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I second the motion. The current revision is a confused mess of postmodernist gobbledygook. jej1997 (talk) 10:47, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I also agree. In the current form this whole article reads like a spoof. It leaves me wondering if this whole thing just an elaborate spoof? I don't think there is a single paragraph that makes any sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.208.30 (talk) 20:25, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Unclear lead

I just read the lead section and did not quite understand what this article is about. Admittedly, that was because ?I didn't know what a millenarian movement was, and after clicking the link it became clearer. However, the lead section should be able to stand on its own as a summary of the article. Can someone more familiar with the subject reword the first sentence or add another one for clarification? Thanks, Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I just came here to make a similar observation. While it's not generally useful for folks to come and complain about such things without offering alternatives, I'm unable to figure out how to improve it because I'm so lost in the muddle of what it's trying to say.

It's reminiscent of documents I've seen before where in order to understand what's being written you must first understand the subject matter well. That's a bit of a nonstarter for a wikipedia page. For example I've read this maybe 7 times now and still am not sure what on earth it's saying:

[...]often linked to an ancestral efficacy ("mana") thought to be recoverable by a return to traditional morality.

(?) I have no idea what that sentence fragment means.Tgm1024 (talk) 13:09, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Reasons related to culture

The article discusses several reasons for these cargo cults to develop, but it concentrates on the _motivation_ why the concerned people would desire to obtain the hoped goods. I miss an explanation why someone would think that building a simulacrum of an airport could attract planes bringing canned beef or whatever. Some aspect of the local culture _previous_ to the presence of the Westerner must explain why they thought that building a mock airfield is the right thing to do to obtain the desired western goods in the first place, and not for example throwing three brown bat hairs in the fire, speaking out aloud "abra cadabra" and spitting three times in the direction of the rising moon.
I understand that magic by analogy is a widespread form of magics, something like stinging nails in a puppet in the expectation of killing some people, or putting wooden ducks on the water to lure real ducks into coming close, but not the only known form of magics. Well, maybe there are thousand such cargo cults where people sit in the dark around the fire spitting thrice in the direction of the rising moon and sure enough this would make no news and attract no anthropologists, but i find nevertheless that some analysis of this topic would enrich the article. 194.174.76.21 (talk) 12:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC) Marco Pagliero Berlin

Example of Indigenous Australian cargo cult in the Torres Strait Island of Saibai

Between 1914 and 1918, a religious movement known as "German Wislin" emerged on Saibai. The Wislin believers predicted that the Germans would win World War One and reward the people of Saibai with a cargo of gifts which would be brought to the island by steamer. After Britain and her allies defeated Germany in 1918, the Wislin movement died away.

source:

1. N Sharp, Stars of Tagai, The Torres Strait Islanders (Aboriginal Studies Press, Canberra; 1993) 117-118 2. J Singe, The Torres Strait, People and History (University of Queensland Press, St Lucia; 1979), 183-184. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.18.35.98 (talk) 02:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Santa Claus

The Cargo Cult article seems to fall firmly into the "Anthropology is about black people, Sociology is about white people" school of thought. An example of a widespread, evolving and successful cargo cult in the latter part of humanity is that of Santa Claus. As there is already an article about him, there is no need to repeat the details here. The mythical part is well known, though the details differ from country to country, and have changed over time. One major difference from most such cults is that the believers actually do receive "cargo," though not by the means they believe or pretend to believe. The other major difference is that the belief is mainly confined to children, who grow out of it without obvious detriment. Who benefits from this? The children, obviously, but also large swathes of industry concerned with making, transporting and selling food and drink as well as the gifts themselves. The adult to adult part of this is not connected with Santa Claus, but he is an integral part of the festival. Do we all benefit from this seasonal increase in consumption and business activity?

The mechanism of the cargo cult is alluded to when "millenial" or "messianic" beliefs are mentioned. Wilfred Bion, a psychoanalyst and one of the founders of Group Therapy, wrote about "Experiences in Groups." He studied small therapy groups (which are not the same as whole populations) and found that they could operate in one of three ways: working groups, paranoid groups or messianic groups. The last named were characterised by optimism, with hope being centered around a leader or pair of leaders. Bion was analysed by Melanie Klein, so a lot of her thinking is paralleled by his. His "Messianic" groups show features of her "manic-depressive" thinking.

Other Cargo Cult-like phenomena can be seen in Western countries: a current example is Brexit-fever in the UK, with talk of £350 million for the NHS and imminent "great deals" with other countries. Another was the pyramid-selling boom in post-communist Albania. Does something similar go on in stock market bubbles? NRPanikker (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Too abstract

The section "Causes, beliefs, and practices" is too abstract. Somebody new to this concept has to wade through this text and only at the second half of the section "Pacific cults of World War II" sees a practical example that makes everything clear.

A Wikipedia article doesn't have to be a dissertation. Please start with the example so people instantly know what is meant. Edwinm (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Adding the section about Reverse cargo cult and its subsequent removing

Moved from User talk:Novem Linguae § Adding the section about Reverse cargo cult and its subsequent removing

Hello! I have added the section "Reverse cargo cult" into the article "Cargo cult". You've removed it. I protest against it on the following grounds:

1. As for Due and undue weight. Just some examples ... This article on openDemocracy mentions political analyst Yekaterina Shulman’s theory of the “reverse cargo-cult” and consists the link to second source that I used (newspaper Vedomosti) ... Reverse cargo cult was discussed in 2017 by users of Reddit in regard to Donald Trump policy ... I think this proves that the term "reverse cargo cult" has emerged in modern socio-political lexicon, both in Russia and English-speaking world.

2. As for self-published sources. I had to used the link to Yekaterina Shulman’s blog (first source that I used) because it's the proof of first recorded usage of the term “reverse cargo-cult”. I haven't found earlier mentions of this term.

3. As for independent sources. Newspaper Vedomosti is a Russian media which isn't affiliated with Yekaterina Shulman. The article "Практический Нострадамус, или 12 умственных привычек, которые мешают нам предвидеть будущее" in Vedomosti (second source that I used) is not press release, syndicated story and there is no conflict of interest. As I noted earlier, this source was mentioned in the article published on openDemocracy, British media, this fact also confirms the independence and reliability of the source.

Thus, I think your decision to remove the section "Reverse cargo cult" is wrong. 5.129.59.116 (talk) 16:08, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Hey there. I went ahead and added a sentence about it using your OpenDemocracy source, which is a better source than the two original sources. I'm still not thrilled with this sentence. The term is not succinct (it's not obvious why western institutions have anything to do with cargo cults), and it only has 3 hits in Google news search. I think this is just a WP:NEOLOGISM that almost nobody is using. I won't object if someone reverts me. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't have any documented proof, but I first heard the term "reverse cargo cult" being used in the 1990's. I'm also fairly sure is was used on PBS discussion. So I pretty sure she did not "coin" this term. AllUltima (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

This is an article on Melanesian millennialist movements, not critiques of the Russian economy. I've removed the section as entirely-off-topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

References