Talk:City of Heroes/Archive 1

a Perhaps a section or paragraph about character creation and the many costume options would be a good thing to have. This is an important game feture for many people, and is a key-selling point for the game.

Origins and Archetypes

Was considering describing the different origins and archetypes, perhaps with examples from comic-books. Is this too much for an encyclopedia article? Would that be verging on becoming a game guide? Allen

The descriptions of the archetypes are great. I added two examples for the defender archetype. I'm pretty comfortable with calling Violet a force field defender (it was the first thing that popped in mind when I saw her powers in the movie), but I'm not sure about calling Cyclops a defender. He's really a blaster, although the game doesn't have blaster powers that come from the eyes.

Can you think of any healer heroes from the comics? JohnnyB 20:04, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

Raven from the Teen Titans is one, also Dagger from Marvel could heal in a way. Maydlene Pyror, the clone of Jean Grey was given healing abilities by Loki once as well. There was also a healer for the Morlocks who could only heal other mutants. --James 08:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I reworded a bit in the Controller section, primarily to indicate that not all controllers have pets (mind control is completely petless) and also to indicate that not all pets serve the purposes of tanking. Although it may be impossible to do without breaking out the archetypes into individual entries, I have deeper reservations with the amount of space in the Controller entry devoted to pets and think the discussion needs to be limited more subsantially to the existence of the pets rather than their function in the game. The devs themselves have said (in the patch notes for Issue 5, where they nerfed pets by limting them to a single instance), "[p]ets remain a powerful tool for heroes, but are no longer class-defining." It makes considerable sense that a non-class-defining power shouldn't get more discussion than the basic function of the controller, which is to control. Junkmale 21:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

New screenshot

The picture originally here was apparently downloaded from the CoH official site. I uploaded one from the game as it unfolded as I played it myself. I just thought that my screenshot was clearer and made it easier to see what was actually going on in the game itself. If you disagree, revert. -- Smerdis of Tlön 23:40, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For reference, the old picture:

File:City of Heroes battle.jpg

old picture

new picture

-- Smerdis of Tlön 17:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I uploaded the original picture and wrote most of the original chunk of this article (which has been wonderfully updated and maintained since my initial posts), and like the new image. A little change never hurted anyone, anyway. Thanks. - user:defunkt 22:46, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The main problem I see is that a person who has *not* played the game would not be able to immediately discern which character is the tank and which character is Vazhilok, unless it is noted that Vazhilok is indeed larger or bulkier. While many might think only the foolish would err in this way, we cannot possibly assume that any person wouldn't, and also we might feel this is a very small issue to take up, but aren't we attempting simple accuracy and comprehensibility in these articles or at least photo blurbs when we can manage to?

I edited the text under the pic to make it hopefully more obvious who is who. - Dany.

My own updates

I added a few updates just now, expanding some sections, rewriting others, adding some new stuff. A couple notes...

I really don't like the use of the word "dungeons"—I only left it in for the moment because I couldn't think of something suitably non-confusing to replace it with. Yeah, it puts things in a context that other MMORPG players would be familiar with, but given that the vast majority of other (successful) MMORPGs have been fantasy, we have genre clash right from the start. It just doesn't match the flavor of the game to talk about quests and dungeons. I'd rather replace "dungeons" with something else, but if I replace it with "mission" then that might confuse people for whom quest means mission too. Any suggestions?

(Try Mission Sites or Instanced Mission Environments? (-anonymous))

Oh, and would someone familiar with the Paragoncity and Guildportals forum links in the external URLs list do a brief write up of them for the Communities section I added? I don't know enough about them to say.

In the future I'd like to add some more sections dealing with things like types of enhancement, "Power 10" vs "Non Power 10", map patch and looping sound issues (vs EULA), and so forth. But I figured the new section on Badges and Accolades was enough of a starting point.

Hope I didn't step on too many toes...

--Robotech_Master 18:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Added some content on badges as well as the special event badges, I agree with dungeon, how about mission area ? --James 08:25, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nice article, suggestions

Folks, this really is a pretty good article, well written and informative. I think it's near the point where it could be a featured article. As someone who was ogling the box in the shop today (thinking "man, this looks addictive; another bullet dodged") there's a few things I think would enhance the article:

• There's no mention of South Korea in the article (isn't NCSoft Korean?). Is the game played there, and if so, when was it released?
• Is there any way to get a single screenshot showing a character of each of the archetypes in one go (i.e. can someone persuade a group to line up nice for a group photo)? We could then annotate that, making it clearer what each one looks like. It would help if each was also of a different origin. Wired did a comparable thing a few months ago, and it was very informative.
• The article shows prices only in USD. Can we hadd GPB, EUR and maybe KRW prices too?
• Can we add one "real" superhero example of each origin (maybe Batman, Xmen, Spiderman, Iron Man, and ??? - heck, I don't know any magic superheros, which is kinda why I ask)? Put that in as requested.* --James 10:58, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are there any statistics about how many players the game has (ideally broken down by region)?

• A section about the servers would be good. Do they have names (and if so, what)? Where are they located? Do they correspond with different virtual places in the world? Can players move between servers (and if so, how)? Put that in as requested.--Robotech_Master 16:53, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• If the article is to be featured, people will want the article to consider any downsides the game may have. Have there been performance problems, or excessive downtimes? Are there problems with cheating or greifing? Is the game too easy or too hard?
• How was the game received by professional reviewers? Put that in as requested.--James 10:58, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• What kind of third-party software exists? Extensions? New maps, sounds, skins, meshes, scenarios? Hacks and cheatbots? Put some in as requested.--James 10:58, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Other than the group shot I suggested above, and the very nice combat shot already extant, it would be nice to see a non-gameplay screenshot (I don't know what there is - maybe character design, inventory status, or whatever)

-- John Fader (talk | contribs) 19:50, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just some quick remarks:

• CoH is developed by a US company and hasn't been released in Korea. Since NCSoft is "only" the distributor, the fact that it is a Korean company is irrelevant to CoH IMHO.
• There is no point in adding screenshots of the seperate archetypes and origins, since these attributes have no bearing on the look of the heroes.

In any case your suggestions are very good, and should be worked on. Usmc88 already has, and I'll do some, too.

RoToRa 11:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kheldians vulnerable to toxic?

Issue 3 did introduce toxic damage and Kheldians, but I don't think Kheldians are vulnerable to toxic damage. Kheldians are vulnerable to attacks by Quantum or Void mobs, which I think have their own damage type. JohnnyB 17:23, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

I havn't read or heard of a particular weakness to toxic, just the same level that everyone else has. --James 19:45, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Enhancements and inspirations

Does it really make sense to create a separate article on enhancements and inspirations especially with such a generic title? RoToRa 11:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it doesn't - this should either be redirected and the information merged into the main article or renamed. --khaosworks 13:58, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ok, i've got around merging the information now. RoToRa 15:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Updates

We should probably merge the City of Villains and Issue 6 updates together. CoV has its own page where all the features that are specific to that game are listed, and I6 seems to be mostly bringing CoH up to speed with the new tech that CoV is bringing to the game. -- Oct 19 2005

In the mean time I adjusted the CoV release date to Oct 29th, as the people who pre-ordered it will be able to play it starting in the wee hours of the morning on the 29th. -- Oct 19 2005

Statesman

Who is "Statesman"? Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 16:42, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Never mind; I figured it out [1]. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 16:48, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

For those of you who haven't seen the link, or are curious: The Statesman (City of Heroes). Donovan Ravenhull 19:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

True enough, though the use of the name in the article (in the Criticism section) insinuates the forum alias. A real person's name should be subsituted in these cases, or the comments in the article set aside. --EazieCheeze 15:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Related Articles

Is there any desire to have CoH backstory heroes and groups (ex. the Statesman, Freedom Phalanx, the Midnight Squad) articles? I added "the Statesman" as a section on that page. Neospooky 16:32, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I've been debating a generic List of Heroes and Villians of City of Heroes or some similar article. Each signature character / group would have one quick paragraph and some of them would have small pictures (from my screneshots). Donovan Ravenhull 19:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Criticism

I've moved the criticism to its own section, because IMHO it made the intro too long. While I don't agree with some of it, it does seem (mostly) valid. However it needs to reworked several reasons:

• It needs to be integrated it into the rest of the article better
• I don't think it's really worded well. For example, I don't think the the second part of the first paragraph is really understandable.
• Finally especially the last bit doesn't quite seem to have a NPOV.

RoToRa 10:19, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the whole section is non-NPOV. If we are going to include it, I think we should have some information about how common this sort of rebalancing, etc. is among similar games of the MMORPG Genre. It makes it sound as if these issues are unique to COH, but really its a lot less common in COH than in several other MMORPGs I have played.--WAHooker 16:20, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

I've got to say, I don't know how you can have a NPOV discussion on "balance" without establishing metrics and collecting data and... see what path this goes down? While I agree with a lot of what the criticism paras state, I don't think they have a place in the article. Possibly in a separate article addressing MMO culture/criticisms broken down into sections by game in order to show examples under that topic, but not in the game article itself. Let's face it, as any veteran MMO player knows, this is standard operating procedure for an MMO. Neospooky 10:28, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I do believe the lattermost part of the Criticism section needs to be rewritten to summarise rather than exposit. There is no need to describe the activities of SOE and Microsoft beyond a mention that these companies are said to be designing comicbook MMO that might eventually compete with City of Heroes. -anonymous

At the very least, someone needs to fix up this sentence:

The release of four public game updates between the April 28, 2004 and June, 2005 has not ceased expressed consumer dissapointment with the game, with the main issues on quality dissent, aside from numerous errors in implementing the software design (computer bugs) being innate power imbalance between archetype power-groups (such as regeneration being considered by many to be an overpowering scrapper archetype defense without equal) and a lack in immersive feel due to a combination of a unique expression of superhero genre in theme and storyline prelude with the poor incorporated implementation of this unique expression within terms of actual gameplay.

I mean, Christ, this's one of the worst run-ons I've ever seen, and unclear to boot. I get the first part about bugginess and imbalance, but I'm not sure what "a lack in immersive feel due to a combination of a unique expression of superhero genre in theme and storyline prelude with the poor incorporated implementation of this unique expression within terms of actual gameplay" is supposed to mean.

• I've made some edits to this section that I hope clarifies some of these points. JohnnyB 14:49, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

(Sorry, what I meant originally in the second quoted sentence was "A lack of immersive feel is notable. This game has a fairly unique expression of superhero genre in theme and storyline prelude, but this seems to be extraneous to actual gameplay: it has been criticised for lacking distinguishing style of play outside of battle and character enhancement, both of which adapt unexplained and puzzling situations into the gameplay."

(For instance, if these enhancements are so commonly found, why isn't it mentioned largely as part of the story? If inspirations are so important, perhaps these might be seen as inherant as, say, the Virtues in Ultima games IV, V, VI, and VII, and also incorporated into the story. The positioning of actual gameplay situations and the story theme seem very similar to early video game versions of popular movies, fantasy novels, and comic book characters: not much to do with the situations, not much to do with the fictive world setting. This is very odd, considering the touted and seeming originality of this game world. One notably small game structural element can be seen in common with Jeff Dee and Jack Herman's Villains and Vigilantes, perhaps also with Living Legends by Jeff Dee, which are the character origins (notably City of Heroes once also included Magic Relic, which is mentioned as a possible character origin in Villains & Vigilantes). Question: is Jack Emmert in actuality the same person as Jack Herman, or related? -anonymous)

Apparently, there's some kind of CoH fanboy watching over this site. I've tried to put in some valid criticism of the customer service, which is verifiable by the Better Business Bureau. Some idiot wants to take the position that because it only mentions NCSoft, then it couldn't possibly be CoH, even though NCSoft Austin is specifically mentioned. I'm questioning the legitimacy of Wiki over what is, essentially, a needed change on a global problem with all MMOs. I'm pretty disappointed, so far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.16.229.91 (talk • contribs)

I am not a "CoH fanboy". Your claims are not sourced, and you specifically claim that you called the BBB and purportedly they told you that the complaints were directly to City of Heroes. NCsoft has more games than that, including Lineage II and Auto Assault. Unless you have a reliable source, that isn't yourself, that states that these complaints are for CoH, then I will continue to revert your edits as vandalism. Ryūlóng 21:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Does it seem it bit impossible to assume that CoH is responsible for none of those complaints? As for my "purporting" to have called the BBB. Why don't you try calling them and and get back to me? This is assuming, of course, that you know how to operate a phone. I'll be waiting for your apology...
The claim is sourced. The BBB has an unsatisfactory rating. You are assuming that 1) CoH is responsible for none of those( abit of a stretch) and 2) that I made a complaint. Try using objectivity instead of using your power as a fanboy to influence the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.16.229.91 (talk • contribs)

First of all, you do not deserve any sort of apology, I do from you as you are being uncivil by implying that I am unable to operate a phone. Second, I'm not saying that none of the complaints against NCsoft are for City of Heroes, it's just that you are claiming that all of the complaints are by placing that information in this article. Wikipedia is not for original research which is what your claims that there are complaints against NCsoft for City of Heroes. I am abiding by the guidelines set forth by Wikipedia. You are not. Ryūlóng 21:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Even if the customer service issues do spring from City of Heroes, the information (if it belongs on WP at all) belongs on the NCSoft page, not here. The criticism is not of the game itself, but of the management company. --EazieCheeze 20:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Mêlée?

OK, what's with all the French accents? The word in English is "melee." The links within Wikipedia will still work with the accents removed. (I speak French and like the accents, but I don't think they have a place in an English entry.) JohnnyB 16:59, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Mêlée is an acceptable English spelling (see, e.g., Merriam-Webster). Many originally French words can retain their accents in English (résumé, café). Also, the mêlée article itself uses the French spelling. I won't revert your change, but I wouldn't suggest you do this in lots of other articles. Just my 2¢. Cheers. —Caesura^(t) 22:55, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

In game the word "Melee" doesn't have any accents on it, and since this is a page for the game, we should use what the game uses. SeraphimXI 06:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this is being over-thought. They are both correct and everyone knows that one is the other.
Aimee 05:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the game uses "melee" (sans accents), and since most English-speakers know the word as "melee," it should be without the accents in the article. Also, note that in Merriam-Webster's listing of melee, mêlée (with accents) is listed as a variant, or less common spelling. Personal observation o'TonyV is that it's much less common. But résumé (definition 2) and café are listed as the main entries, with the non-accented versions resume and cafe listed as the less common variants. As much as possible, we should stick with the most commonly recognized English spellings of words, and in this and other articles, I see nothing wrong with correcting them to use the most common English spellings. My 2¢'s worth, --TonyV 13:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Archetype Powers

In the Archetypes section, it lists several primary power sets for each AT, however I feel that the lists don’t really fit into it, first of all they are incomplete and not always accurate, secondly there is no mention of secondary power sets which help define the ATs even more. I also feel it makes the section much longer than necessary, I think it would be better to have brief mention of what to expect from Primary and Secondary powers and let fan sites add the detailed information (which they do better anyway). --Zikar 21:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

• I tend to agree. When the name of the power set is self-explanatory (Broadsword) I don't think the detailed description is needed. The distinction between the different types of damage and other game details are best left to game guides. Maybe a brief explanation would be needed for the sets with less obvious names (Empathy, Kinetics). JohnnyB 14:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

• I'd be willing to rewrite the whole thing if it doesn't cause some sort of uproar... --Zikar 14:54, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that at least a list of powerset names (Either primary only or primary and secondary both) would be good to include. Maybe we could just cut out some of the description.--WAHooker 17:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Went ahead and made the changes. I think it looks pretty good. --Zikar 22:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Emotes

Is the list of all the emote commands really needed? I don't see how it adds to the article. --some random guy

I'm in agreement here. It borders on fancruft. Donovan Ravenhull 16:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Alright, fine. I figured wikipedia was about all information about any one subject just like in an actual encyclopedia, but suppose I was wrong. Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia. Ok, got it. :P --FazzMunkle

Wasn't trying to be mean, but this is an encyclopedia, and this page already leans past encyclopedic content as it is. The list of emotes is fine for a fansite, or even a user page, but doesn't realy belong in the article here. We appreciate your interest in keeping things up to date and acurate, but we may disagree on just what qualifies as content. Be well. Donovan Ravenhull 23:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

City of Villains

City of Villains isn't a sequel to the game, it is an expansion that doesn't require you to have the original game. Some of the devs have called it a sister game, or an expanshalone (which is silly). I think in the first paragraph we need to change "sequel" since it's not a sequel. I just don't know what word to use (Stand alone expansion problary works) SeraphimXI 06:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Breaking up the article

According to the edit window for the article, the article is now longer thatn Wikipedia prefers. So I was wondering if we wanted to look into breaking several parts of it out into their own separate articles. If so, the next question is what to break out. One possibility that justs out at me is the Powers section would make a logical single article, with maybe a simple list of the five ATs left in the main. Other possibilities for breakout include Updates (City of Heroes history) Servers, Criticism and Praise as one or two articles. Other sections could be broken out if more shrinkage was still needed. - TexasAndroid 22:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

If I don't see any objections here in the next day or so I'm inclined to be bold and go ahead and break out a couple of sections into their own articles... - TexasAndroid 19:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok. The weekend has passed with no objections. I'm going to go ahead and break several large sections of the article out into their own articles. - TexasAndroid 14:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Fan Sites

I just removed a couple of broken links from the External Links section, and it occurred to me that there are a lot of what I would consider "fan sites" listed. I run a RP newspaper fan site and a CoH/CoV-dedicated Wiki myself, and I was tempted to add it to the list, but I didn't, at least not yet.

Do we really want the External Links section of this article to turn into a fan site listing? I mean, there is already a fan site portal on the official site, which includes most of the sites listed in the External Links section here (VidiotMaps, City of Zeroes, TweakCoH, Warcry, etc.). This problem is compounded when fan sites go and the person who edited the article to include them doesn't bother to go back and re-edit it to take them out.

I propose that everything from the External Links be removed except for the official site links and replaced by one link to the City of Heroes fan site portal.

Any objections? --TonyV 18:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the text of the marvel complaint isn't a fansite item, and is not something I would expect to find from the fansite portal, but other than that, I really don't see a problem with clearing out the link section. - TexasAndroid 19:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I agree. How about this: I'll leave everything alone until Monday, and if there are no objections, I'll change it. - TonyV 23:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's a week after Monday now, and I just now got around to making the change, and I put a link to this discussion in the change log. If I blew away your site, please don't take it personally. It's not that I think your site doesn't add to the community. (It's quite the opposite, actually!) It's just that, like I said, the External Links section should point to links that are directly relevant to the game itself. If all fan sites were listed, well, this page would be a real mess, and it would just be a lagging duplicate of the existing fan site portal. If you haven't done so already, you should submit your site for inclusion on the official Fan site portal. --TonyV 17:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

There are some sites that go beyond being mere "fan" sites and include useful utilities, though—like VidiotMaps's map patch, or TweakCoH's registry tweaker, or the HeroStats statistical tracker. The fansite portal just lists fansites, it doesn't categorize them or point out the ones that have particularly useful stuff on them. Maybe there should be a category for links to that type of material? Or, well, maybe not... --Robotech_Master 18:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I have several concerns about including fan sites, including ones that include utilities such as those that VidiotMaps, TweakCoH, HeroStats, and other such sites do.

First of all, they are too much on the fringe to be part of the City of Heroes article. Even though I'm sure that a lot of players just assume that everyone uses these utilities, my observation has been that in reality, not that many people do. Second, where does one draw the line? There are dozens of useful sites and utilites such as these out there, and I just don't feel comfortable in including them all in the article, especially since they're pretty much already listed on the Fansite Portal. What is the threshhold for usefulness? Third, because everyone thinks their site or utility is the best thing since sliced bread, some folks may even take advantage of the site list to promote their personal favorite site, or worse, their own site (something I was tempted to do myself, before I took a step back and realized it was a bad thing). Fourth, who's going to monitor the sites and utilities to make sure that they're kept up-to-date? I deleted a few dead links a while back of fan sites that some folks had entered in months before. Who knows how long the links had been dead? If HeroStats decides tomorrow that they're going to sneak in some spyware to make some extra cash (this is purely an example; I have no reason to believe that this would actually happen), is someone going to make a point to go back to the Wikipedia and make a note of that?

Also please note that on the official site, the Fansite Portal is split into two parts: a part with sites about supergroups and such, and a part with sites about the game itself. The latter is where sites such as VidiotMaps, HeroStats, TweakCoH, and so on are listed. Since that list already exists in an entirely appropriate place, I strongly feel that's where it should stay, and that the Wikipedia City of Heroes article shouldn't try to mirror it.

I guess it all boils down to one thing: What exactly is the Wikipedia article supposed to be? Personally, I think it should be a good high-level overview of the game, with some relevant important in-depth facts. Honestly, I feel that even as it exists now, the article needs some serious trimming down. Do we really need to know the percentage of buff of a level two luck inspiration from this article? It's already waaay too long, and adding all these sites and utilities, which have little relevance or importantce in the grand scheme of things, will only add to the cruft. If one wants to dig into the nitty-gritties, they should check out the Paragon Wiki, a wiki dedicated solely to City of Heroes (and all the cruft) or the City of Heroes Wikibook.

That's just my 2¢'s worth, TonyV 01:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Reoccurant Criticism Entry

I've just removed the following from the Criticism subsection that has appeared from time to time from an annon user and usually lasts only a few hours:

Also of concern is that changes in this game are made slowly and with imprecision, as if only small problems are noticed, as if the "eye of the developer" is too small to consider all game mechanics by reading through their own ruleset. This can be justifiably accused as an unethical business tactic similar to a car mechanic repairing a car by changing every automobile part one at a time, to accumulate extra pay and accrue further fees.

Seems to me as a serious POV issue. Also, part of me has problems with the core of the complaint. It isn't like the game charges for each of these 'small changes', but is covered in the regular subscription costs which would be the same with major changes or no changes. If any believe that this should be restored, please comment. Donovan Ravenhull 19:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think what's being said by that user is that Cryptic gains money gradually through subscription fee, and that to actually improve the game doesn't help Cryptic financially beyond what might appear at a glance to be an attempted improvement but might be a stalling manuever more than anything else. This tactic might actually work because the superhero genre in the MMORPG market is held by Cryptic, but this might change once sufficiently wealthy competitors appear, especially competitors who are felt by some to be flawed in MMO design.

The basis behind this shady tactic in corporate methodology is to conserve ideas. If the great ideas are already there, all the competitors have to do is pick up the ideas, change these ideas a bit, and establish a homogenous market for superhero MMORPG. It is not extremely evident that Cryptic is engaging in this specific tactic, but it would be the most likely approach for a relatively small company that will eventually have to compete with larger companies. However, there are other tactics Cryptic could use, such as relying on the greater flexibility of a newly established superhero cosmos and relying on their unique style to incorporate gameplay that older superhero creations can't sustain due to expectations of a large fan consumer populace.

If it is true that Cryptic is using an established shady business tactic such as "repairing the automobile til it's broken differently" this could bode ill for those who hope the game will improve swiftly and develop its own brand of superhero MMORPG in a portion of the entertainment market that might grow healthy and strong. (-anonymous)

Maybe, but I don't see this is a serious or widespread complaint in either the CoH/CoV community or the MMORPG community at large. I mean, everyone wants lots of updates and bug fixes, and they want them ASAP, but the fact of the matter is that all software is only improved incrementally. How often does Microsoft, for example, make major patches and/or improvements to Word? Or, if you prefer, how often does the Firefox team make major patches and/or improvements to Firefox? In both cases, it's at best as often as Cryptic Studios makes major patches to CoH/CoV; probably, on average, it's considerably longer. It sounds to me like someone is upset with a subscription-based model in general, not any problem specific to CoH/CoV. As such, I agree that it shouldn't be in the article, at least not this one. --TonyV 13:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

hack incident

This is what was up on the page:

Hacking Incident (original)

thumb|A screenshot depicting a hacked CoH server. On 2005-12-20, the City of Heroes servers were hacked, by an undisclosed method. According to NCSoft representative CuppaJo, "Customer data and its security was not compromised in any way during the incident that occurred." However, this is not verifiable. Further such hacking events occurred in the days following, and again several months later, but these were never publicly addressed or acknowledged by the either Cryptic Studios or NCSoft.,,,,

Perhaps this revision?

A CoH/CoV-specific wiki

For anyone who may be interested, I have created and been working diligently for the past several months on a CoH/CoV-specific wiki called Paragon Wiki. I've seen some (justified) complaints here about too much fan information. Unlike this article, the Paragon Wiki isn't just a topic-overview general encyclopedia site like the Wikipedia, it's meant to delve into all the little nooks and crannies of the game. Please feel free to come by and peruse the site, and if you're motivated, edit or add useful articles. It's a volunteer effort that is 100% ad-free, and based on WikiMedia software so that all of your mad Wikipedia editing skills will directly transfer over. --TonyV 13:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

City of Hero Asian Release

I'm adding what little information I can to the beginning of the article to notify that there's a Korean release for City of Heroes. If anyone can read Korean, maybe they can set up a more in depth page in the English language for City of Hero's entry. The site can be seen here. Ryulong 02:21, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hamidon Enhancements

Just in case anyone thinks I'm just changing for fun, I just did my first Hamidon Raid (Lv45, sidekicked) and received a Lv46 Membrane Exposure. (Oh god, I did Quatermain then a Raid, I feel like a hunchback from crouching overthe KB and spamming holds) Mr. Cat 03:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

City of Heroes Roleplaying game

Revised the section on the "City of Heroes Roleplaying Game". Note that this is the proper title of the game, according to the official website, which is why I specifically included that phrase in this section (as opposed to just "pen and paper version of City of Heroes"). Also added a sentence on the current state of development according to this month's press release.

Just to clarify, since it looks like someone tried to change my comment above: there is no space in the word "Roleplaying" in the official title of the RPG on the company press releases. It's one word. Dugwiki 22:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If you do a search based on the 1-933105-11-9 of the product, the official title appears to be "City of Heroes Rpg Registraton Manual". —Asatruer 23:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That's just the title of one of the books. If you look at the images on Eden's Website for the game, the series is called the "City of Heroes Roleplaying Game." Ryulong 02:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the image of the actual cover of the manuals, the official website product section lists the two main game books as "City of Heroes Roleplaying Game

Registration Manual" and "City of Heroes Roleplaying Game Paragon City Operative Manual" respectively. So it appears both on the actual covers and in the official press releases under that name. Dugwiki 15:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

CoH Comic

I'm leaning very heavily towards splitting the CoH comic section off to it's own article, to have one less thing cluttering an alredy cluttered article. I'll wait a couple of days for objections to be raised here but if none are raised, I'll likely split it out later this week. - TexasAndroid 19:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Considering that there will more than likely be a comic for as long as the games are constantly updated and such, I agree with this choice. Perhaps it can be a home for storyline information, as well, seeing as every other established comic series' article does the same (sort of). Ryulong 21:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. rootology 23:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV, people

I am most displeased to see that someone made a thinly-veiled attempt at undermining Cryptic Studios and it's game with an entry about how they may have lied about a hacking incident never placing their customer's their customers personal info and credit information at stake. Furthermore, people keep stretching to add complaints to the criticism section. If we can't maintain a neutral point of view and stick to the facts, then I suggest that we do away with Praise and Criticism. --71.12.221.109 18:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying the hack did not happen? rootology 19:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, the not verifiable bit was put in since it is not verifiable... rootology 19:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I also added the numerous citation as Cryptic at any time can nuke that post entry by CuppaJo. No smearing, the hack happened, and was seen by tens of thousands (or more) players. rootology 19:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I know the hack happened, I was there. But the line of "Customer data and its security was not compromised in any way during the incident that occurred. However, this is not verifiable" is nothing more than a thinly-veiled way of say "Of couse, they're lying". Which to me, reeks of nothing more than a weak attempt at undermining the game and it's developers. If you want to mention it happened, do so. Keep personal opinions of whether Cryptic lied or not out of it. Furthermore, you only need ONE citation, the one on the official boards is good enough, any more is just space-wasting overkill--71.12.221.109 19:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Citing just Cryptic's post is a bad idea. They can remove it any time, and we have outside 3rd party news coverage of it. If only Cryptic is cited and they remove the link then this is an unsourced section of the article. rootology 19:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, I'm stilll bothered by it on the main page. IMHO if it needs to go anywhere, it would be on the Server subpage, not on the main page. This is much more an event about the server status than about the game status itself. - TexasAndroid 19:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It's also notable as I believe it's the first time any MMO was hacked "in game" live in that fashion beyond everyday mod type hacks. I think it's a first page thing. Going to update my revised one, hang on a sec, then comment on that. rootology 19:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Just get rid of the needless dialogue of whether or not their statement was "verifiable" or not, and I'll have no complaints. Also, I wouldn't mention any unconfirmed hack reports either, some of these are just player rumor and speculation. For a good example, I'm sure you're aware of the "KTR Corporation" incident, this was nothing more than a public "mistell" by an Admin, not a hack attack like people were assuming.--71.12.221.109 19:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, remember KTR. That was more silly than anything, everyone was "sky is falling" over it. Check out my revised one below. I'm just concerned that there really is no way to verify that nothing was in any risk from a 3rd party perspective. What do other editors think of that? (no problems here with the trimmed down bit, just want to leave in that it happened since I think it's notable--and seriously not smearing. I loves me the COH). rootology 19:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Look down at the hack incident section. rootology 19:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hacking Incident (revised)

thumb|A screenshot depicting a hacked CoH server. On 2005-12-20, the City of Heroes servers were hacked, by an undisclosed method. According to NCSoft representative CuppaJo, "Customer data and its security was not compromised in any way during the incident that occurred." However, this may not verifiable by outside sources. Additionally, this is as of the time of the hack the first known live "in-game" hack of any MMO in this fashion.,,,,

That is completely factual (and as far as I can tell we have no way to verify Cuppa's statement reasonably). Any concensus objection/opinions/etc on using the shorter revised version? rootology 19:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I really see no reason for the "However, this is not verifiable." comment, other than to leave the implication that there the original statement may not be true. If I said "Rootology says he is a truthful person, however, this is not verifiable.", it leaves the implication that there might be some reason to doubt that Rootology is truthfull. It adds nothing to the statement except to cast doubt. And there really is no reason to doubt this fact. The game serves and customer data servers belong to different companies, for goodness sake. So IMHO there is no reason to cast doubt on CuppaJo's satement. - TexasAndroid 19:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, works for me. I'd like to keep in at least some of the additional citations, in case cryptic removes CJ's post. We need to be able to still source it. rootology 19:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, but let's make it just 2 or 3 citations, ok? 4 is a little much... --71.12.221.109 19:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

No problem, trim it down to which ones you think are best and reinsert wherever it feels right if you're up for it. Just as an aside, anyone know of any other related/similar hacks on other MMOs? I can't think of any (googling last weekend drew zilch), I think this really was a first. rootology 19:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

None spring to mind. Though this really wasn't a "hack" in the classical sense, this kid just found an old server-monitoring program and used it. --71.12.221.109 19:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

As for the revision, with the removal of the "verifiable comment", I have no problems with you reposting it, though where you should repost it I'm not sure, I agree with TA that it may belong into the server subsection instead. Also, feel free to use whatever 3 sources you like, though the most reputable would probably be best--71.12.221.109 19:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Was anyone going to put it back in, or...? --Ryajinor 21:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that this will be reincluded in the article. There is nothing we know that we can say about it that would use reliable sources. Ryūlóng 21:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)