Talk:Costermonger/Archives/2017

Book Lack in Ongar?

It's a VERY long time since I read the play, but my recollection is that in the play Jimmy has bought a sweet shop (not that he is a coster selling candles). The WP page doesn't mention either. I hope someone out there is still watching this page.Pincrete (talk) 23:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I've answered my own question, it is in fact referred to as a 'sweet stall' in both play and film, whether this makes him a 'coster', is a bit problematic. I've altered the ref. to make it more accurate, though I question whether a 'stall-holder' is a coster.Pincrete (talk) 10:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

According to the WP article, Look Back in Anger Jimmy and Allison's income is derived from a "sweet stall in the local market" which could imply that they are costers. BronHiggs (talk) 05:30, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I've now checked. The play is set in the Midlands and nowhere is Jimmy described as a coster. If RS don't use the term, neither can we IMO, otherwise the article becomes about all kinds of street trade anywhere or all kinds of London working class life at any time. I agree that the term is not precisely fixed (mainly London, originally fruit+veg, originally a particular kind of pedlar, originally noted for distinctive dress + habits) and is used more flexibly in Victorian sources, but I don't think that WE can extrapolate from that anyone selling in the street in any period, even any period in London, is, or would necessarily have been describable as a 'coster'. I've removed the LBiA and Pygmalion text, also the Rembrandt pedler, who isn't even a street-seller. I've left the other images since they illustrate a type, and since they don't claim to be 'costers', it does no harm to leave them IMO, though someone else might. Pincrete (talk) 13:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

WP requires that images be directly related to the article content. Since you have removed the relevant content, the image of Eliza Dolittlre must go. I have removed it just now. I am from Australia and I have seen drawings/photographs of costermongers in Sydney in the early 1900s and have read descriptions of costermongers of their activities in as well. Sydney, Australia is nowehere near London's east end. In any case, I have also removed any image that does not expressly mention costermonger in the original source. That will be my last edit on this article. However, note that the article needs a lot of reworking to align with the revisionist interpretation of costermonger being used here. BronHiggs (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Pygmalion

User:BronHiggs, I'm fairly certain that Eliza is never described as a 'coster/monger', she's simply a flower seller (often these were sold from a hand-basket, particularly by 'pressing them' onto gentlemen who were accompanyied by ladies ).

I'm also fairly certain that Jimmy in 'Look back in Anger' is never referred to as a 'coster' (not all stall-holders or street-sellers are/were costers), but I've never got round to checking this out. Pincrete (talk) 21:57, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

User:Pincrete I cannot comment about Look Back in Anger as I am not familiar with the book, and did not contribute that passage to the WP article. However, I am fairly certain that the original lyrics of the musical version refer to "costermongers". For example, the lyrics of "Wouldn't It be Lovely" refer to Costermonger 1, Costermonger 2, Costermonger 3 and Costermonger 4 as members of a social community who are very familiar with Eliza and her circumstances. In other words, the lyricists, for the musical version, had no difficulty recognising the Doolittles as coster mongers and placing them firmly within that social group. Critics sometimes refer to these men as the coster quartet See, for example, http://www.theage.com.au/news/reviews/my-fair-lady/2005/07/31/1122748521358.html

At the time when Pygmalion was written and performed, costermongers were a relatively common sight in London. That Doolittle was a coster was implied. There was no need for the Shaw to spell it out. Simply by using the dress code, the language and the locations where costermongers were known to frequent, audiences immediately understood that Eliza and her father were coster mongers and lived the lifestyle associated with coster mongers.

Eliza is described in the original play as a "flower seller". As the WP article is at pains to describe, another term for seller is coster. (They are synonymous).

Almost every known production of Pygmalion or My Fair Lady has Eliza dressed in typical costermonger attire.

Eliza's father, Albert Doolittle, speaks with the typical rhyming slang associated with coster mongers of London and also wears coster costume.

Covent Garden, a key location in Pygmalion, was the main market where costermongers bought and sold produce. It has been estimated that about 4,000 costermongers attended Covent Garden daily (See http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications/mayhew1-1.htm)

The article clearly states that come coster mongers managed small stalls and there is more than adequate historical evidence for such a claim (i.e., it is verifiable, even if it is not well referenced in thea article itself)

In literature and in critical analysis, there is a general understanding that Eliza Doolittle is a coster monger, and her father is a somewhat lazy, if highly intelligent, coster

See, for instance Alf Dole, The Pearly Prince of St Pancras "You can't watch an old film set in London without seeing them [costermongers] in the background, usually singing or dancing behind the likes of Mary Poppins or Eliza Doolittle".

The following passage clearly shows that the term seller and coster is often used synonymously and explains that Eliza, who had once identified with coster monger lifestyles, was a different person following her enounter with Prof Higgins.

" Historical mysteries transport the reader to a different era and allow us to live for a short time in a period we likely know nothing about. The author did a wonderful job of describing 1913, from Higgins’ upscale home in Mayfair to the not so picturesque area known as London’s East End. I found the description of the time period very interesting, from the locale, to the people, to the clothing styles.

The familiar aroma of oranges and onions assaulted her senses the moment they entered the market. Eliza threaded her way expertly through browsing shoppers and crates filled with fruit and vegetables. Despite the late afternoon hour— a typically slow time— most stalls still had produce on display. With the market half empty, few vendors shouted out their wares, but Eliza grinned to hear a distant fishmonger sing out, “Eels! Eels fresh from the river! All large and alive- o!” [Emphasis added]

One coster looked up from his barrow. “Parsley, miss? Penny a bunch. None greener in London.” [Emphasis added]

She shook her head. The picked- over specimens weren’t the best that arrived at dawn each morning from the countryside and coast, but they were still decent enough to attract buyers. Those vendors without any customers clustered in small groups near their stalls, chatting and smoking. Eliza recognized many of them. But each time she spoke a greeting to a woman in her market apron or a fellow unloading a crate of potatoes, they responded with a puzzled stare. [Emphasis added]

Why should they recognize her? Gone were her muddy boots, faded skirt, and moth- eaten coat. Now she wore a pink gown made of a soft material the dressmaker called batiste; its nautical style was said to be all the latest rage. And instead of a soot- covered straw hat she’d fished out of a dustbin, Eliza wore a new boater on her perfectly coiffed hair. The pink silk ribbon decorating her hat cost more than a week’s wage of any flower seller here. (Source: from a Book Review, http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs/2014/09/fresh-meat-wouldnt-it-be-deadly-by-de-ireland-eliza-doolittle-henry-higgins-first-in-series-kerry-hammond)

I think you are placing too fine a distinction on "costers" and "street sellers". A street seller may have operated from a small stall, or handcart or simply moved around with a simple basket. The use fo hand baskets was more likely to be associated with women, while stalls and handcarts were male territory. The term, coster, is rarely used today. But in the nineteenth century and early twentieth century coster and street vendor were terms used interchangeably, particularly in relation to the thousands of street sellers in London. The term, 'costermonger', implied more than a simple occupation; it also referred to a lifestyle associated with the Cockneys of London's East End, most of whom made a living from activities associated with street selling. They were the city's underclass, very poor and unable to afford premises or license fees, permits etc associated with permanent premises.

If, after this explanation, you wish to claim OR or some other crime against Wikipedia, or whatever, please feel free to delete both the reference to Doolittle and also to Look Back in Anger. I will not contest it. If you do decide to delete, please remember to delete the associated image of Eliza Doolittle wearing coster monger attire in 1914. BronHiggs (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

nb edit conflict

BronHiggs, I don't know the musical (only the songs!), so it's quite possible that 'coster' is used in that. You appreciate that films sometimes concoct a Dick-van-Dykey, Mary Poppins-ish version of London and London-isms, which is not over-concerned with historical accuracy!

Coster historically isn't exactly synonymous with street-seller and I'm fairly sure it would be OR to make Shaw's Eliza a coster if he didn't say it explicitly (his audience would have been sitting within spitting distance of Covent Garden and therefore familiar with the term and type), Shaw himself was so appalled by the film that he refused to accept royalties, claiming it had nothing to do with him. I'll come back and read your stuff in a day or so, but initial reaction is that whilst I don't mind reading that the term has been taken up by popular culture with a more general meaning, it really didn't have that meaning historically. Pincrete (talk) 01:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

It's not entirely clear what evidence you have for Shaw's alleged reaction to the musical version of his play. George Bernard Shaw died in 1950 and the first Broadway production of My Fair Lady occured six years after his death in 1956! BronHiggs (talk) 05:33, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, you are right, it was the 1938 film of the play that annoyed Shaw and also stage productions which altered his play,he gave all royalties to the play to RADA, which thus indirectly benefitted for many years from the musical and films of MFL. Pincrete (talk) 13:50, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

User:Pincrete As I have said, if you feel it is necessary to delete both passages, be my guest. I have nothing further to add to this discussion. In addition, an edit conflict appears to be defined as a situation when a user deletes, and another readds, followed by another deletion [to the actual article] etc. A discussion on a talk page, with referenced articles, and serious interpretation might be construed as a difference of opinion but not an edit conflict. I have no personal investment in this article and really don't mind at all whatever you decide to do. The ball's in your court. BronHiggs (talk) 03:15, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm ready to believe that 'coster' may be used in some popular culture as a more generic term, including perhaps MyFLady, if so that is add-able, what I'm not happy about is mixing historical usage and Hollywood/Broadway representation/use of the term. There are countless terms for 'pedlars', if they had distinct usage, we shouldn't mix them, some are interchangable, but some are not. BTW, Mayhew says of 'costers' that they come from "Edmonton, Edgeware, and Tottenham; Highgate, Hampstead, and even from Greenwich and Lewisham", none of these places is even close to the East End, nor to central London in the late 1800's. Pincrete (talk) 13:39, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

The image of Eliza Dolittle in coster costume, that was deleted, was an image from the first production of Pygmalion (the play) in 1914 and not from My Fair Lady (1956+). It has been said that Shaw expressly wrote the play with that actress in mind. Literally thousands of WP articles include cultural references about the topic including references to film, musical, popular and classical music, artworks, books, sayings and expressions etc. You will certainly have your work cut out for you if your objection to Hollywood/ Broadway references is so strong that these need to be removed. BronHiggs (talk) 21:55, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't want popular depictions removed (though they aren't my favourite bits, some are very interesting, some a bit pointless). I just don't want popular depictions confused with historically verifiable facts. Madame Butterfly is a very enjoyable and moving opera, it isn't a depiction of Japanese life. Pincrete (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Some definitions & descriptions of costermonger

It has been alleged that street vendors and costermongers are not interchangeable terms.

A costermonger is defined as:

"A person who sells fruit and vegetables outside rather than in a store" [i.e., street vendor] Merriam-Webster Dictionary, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/costermonger

"Someone who sells fruit and vegetables in the street" [i.e., a street vendor] Longman's Dictionary of Occupations, http://www.ldoceonline.com/Occupations-topic/costermonger

"Someone who sells fruit and vegetables in the street" [i.e, a street vendor] Macmillan Dictionary, http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/british/costermongercostermonger

"A dated British term for a person who sells goods, especially fruit and vegetables, from a handcart in the street" Oxford Encyclopedia, http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/costermonger

"A person who sells goods, especially fruit and vegetables, from a handcart in the street." Oxford Dictionary, https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/costermonger

"One who sells fruit, vegetables, fish, or other goods from a cart, barrow, or stand in the streets" [Emphasis added] The Free Dictionary, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/costermonger

"A person who sells fruit or vegetables from a cart or street stand" [Emphasis added] Collins Dictionary, https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/costermonger

"An apple seller; a hawker of, or dealer in, any kind of fruit or vegetables; a fruiterer." Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Descriptions of costermongers

It has been alleged that costermongers do not operate out of stalls, but instead work from barrows or baskets.

"At a costermonger's stall he bought a pennyworth of apples, and munched them as he went." A Hero of Romance by Richard Marsh (1900) [Emphasis added]

"Some recollected an old lady who used to keep a costermonger's stall and had a baby with fits. A Dog with a Bad Name by Talbot Baines Reed (1894)

"The costermongers might be seen pushing out their barrows of vegetables, fruit, and coarse fish." The Man with the Book by John Matthias Weylland (c. 1923)

"Under the term 'costermonger' is here included only such 'street-sellers' as deal in fish, fruit, and vegetables, purchasing their goods at the wholesale 'green' and 'fish' markets. Of these some carry on their business at the same stationary stall or 'standing' in the street, while others go on 'rounds.'" [Emphasis added] Henry Mayhew, London Labour and the London Poor, (1851) https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

"Strangely enough, the flower seller, as a rule, has no love - for flowers. She knows that her customers like them, and appreciate a well-arranged buttonhole, but where the great attraction lies she herself cannot understand. How seldom you see a flower girl wearing a flower! That her male associates should be insensible to the charm of their goods is less surprising. Probably the only personal use a coster ever made of a flower was to put the stalk in his mouth and chew it." [Emphasis added] Round London : Down East and Up West by Montagu Williams Q.C., (1894)

"Those who sold fruit, meat, and vegetables in the streets were known as costermongers, and Mayhew spends the beginning of London Labour and the London Poor telling us all about them. They sold eels, mackerel, herrings, apples, oranges, cherries, grapes, walnuts, turnips, onions, and cabbages. They told Mayhew all their tricks for selling rotten meat or fruit disguised as fresh food: they boiled oranges to make them look bigger and juicier, filled up baskets with leaves and put strawberries on top so customers thought they were buying baskets full of fruit, and hid rotting fish amongst fresh fish." Mary L Shannon, Henry Mayhew’s London Labour and the London Poor https://www.bl.uk/romantics-and-victorians/articles/henry-mayhews-london-labour-and-the-london-poor#sthash.NzTq14gZ.dpuf See more at: https://www.bl.uk/romantics-and-victorians/articles/henry-mayhews-london-labour-and-the-london-poor#sthash.NzTq14gZ.dpuf

"During the summer months and fruit season, the average number of costermongers attending Covent-garden market is about 2,500 per market-day. In the strawberry season there are nearly double as many ... a Saturday morning, from the commencement to the close of the market, as many as 4,000 costers have been reckoned purchasing at Covent-garden. " Henry Mayhew, London Labour and the London Poor, https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

"The costermongers, moreover, diversify their labours by occasionally going on a country round, travelling on these excursions, in all directions, from thirty to ninety and even a hundred miles from the metropolis. Some, again, confine their callings chiefly to the neighbouring races and fairs. " [i.e., itinerant vendors] Henry Mayhew, London Labour and the London Poor, (1851) https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

[on the conveyances used by costermongers] "From the more provident costermonger's pony and donkey cart,to the old rusty iron tray slung round the neck by the vendor of blacking, and down to the little grey-eyed Irish boy with his lucifer-matches, in the last remains of a willow hand basket — the shape and variety of the means resorted to by the costermongers and other street-sellers, for carrying about their goods, are almost as manifold as the articles they vend... The pony — or donkey — carts (and the latter is by far the more usual beast of draught) [for the more prosperous costermonger)... The next conveyance (which, indeed, is the most general) is the costermonger's hand-barrow." Henry Mayhew, (1851) London Labour and the London Poor, https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

[on costermonger girls] "At about seven years of age the girls first go into the streets to sell. A shallow-basket is given to them, with about two shillings for stock-money, and they hawk, according to the time of year, either oranges, apples, or violets; some begin their street education with the sale of water- cresses. Between four and five in the morning they have to leave home for the markets, and sell in the streets until about nine. Those that have more kindly parents, return then to breakfast, but many are obliged to earn the morning's meal for themselves. After breakfast, they generally remain in the streets until about ten o'clock at night; many having nothing during all that time but one meal of bread and butter and coffee, to enable them to support the fatigue of walking from street to street with the heavy basket on their heads." Henry Mayhew, (1851) London Labour and the London Poor, https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

[on the costermonger's dress] "The costermonger's ordinary costume partakes of the durability of the warehouseman's, with the quaintness of that of the stable-boy. A well-to-do 'coster,' when dressed for the day's work, usually wears a small cloth cap, a little on one side. A close-fitting worsted tie-up skull-cap, is very fashionable, just now, among the class, and ringlets at the temples are looked up to as the height of elegance. Hats they never wear — excepting on Sunday — on account of their baskets being frequently carried on their heads.... Their waistcoats, which are of a broad-ribbed corduroy, with fustian back and sleeves, being made as long as a groom's, and buttoned up nearly to the throat. If the corduroy be of a light sandy colour, then plain brass, or sporting buttons, with raised fox's or stag's heads upon them — or else black bone- buttons, with a lower-pattern — ornament the front; but if the cord be of a dark rat-skin hue, then mother-of-pearl buttons are preferred. Two large pockets — sometimes four — with huge flaps or lappels, like those in a shooting- coat, are commonly worn... The costermonger, however, prides himself most of all upon his neckerchief and boots. Men, women, boys and girls, all have a passion for these articles...The costermonger's love of a good strong boot is a singular prejudice that runs throughout the whole class." Henry Mayhew, (1851) London Labour and the London Poor, https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

NB: Mayhew refers to a "coster class" (p.261) by which is it clear that he refers to the Cockney's of east London. Mayhew o

ten refers to street vendors and costers as interchangeable terms as per quotations provided on this page. Henry Mayhew, (1851) London Labour and the London Poor, https://archive.org/stream/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft/mayhewslondonbei00mayhuoft_djvu.txt

This shows that Mayhew uses the term (almost) interchangably, I say almost since he also refers to hawkers and pedlars, we can't extrapolate from that the term is always interchangable. BTW see my note above about what Mayhew says about 'costers' coming from outside London. The word 'cockney' itself has expanding definitions, it previously referred to a specific area of east central London, by extension all east London, further extension to all working class London, and sometimes any Londoner. I expect and hope that the relevant article makes both the original and extended usages clear, but it shouldn't confuse them as being the same thing. Pincrete (talk) 14:07, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Not all the quotations are from Mayhew. Other contemporary accounts suggest that the term, costermonger, was used to describe any street vendor who sold fresh produce, whether from a barrow, basket, stall, stand or pitch. The terms, pedlar or hawker, were more often applied to itinerant vendors who sold non-perishables such as brushes, brooms, hardware etc and may also have applied to those who performed services such as knife sharpening. Secondary sources, that is historical accounts of London written at a later period, also suggest that the term, costermonger, was used very loosely in the mid to late nineteenth century. These accounts are based on Mayhew, Thomspon and other first hand accounts such as diaries and sketches, plus photographic collections and oral histories provided by costermongers themselves who were still to be found as late as the 1960s. BronHiggs (talk) 00:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Surely, I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. Many of these terms have original and extended meanings and we can record that. My only concern was that WE should not extend the terms. Pincrete (talk) 09:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Just a few more definitions/ descriptions of costermonger

"In theory a fruit and vegetable seller, but he also sold fish, sometimes at a stall, sometimes walking street to street crying his wares. In London, costermongers bought their merchandise at Covent Garden or Billingsgate, sometimes travelling ten miles a day to hawk it. Among the elite of the street sellers, they probably numbered around 12,000 in mid-century London." What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew: From Fox Hunting to Whist-the Facts of Everyday Life in 19th-Century England, By Daniel Pool (1993)

"Costermongers especially were the market's heartbeat. Though “costermonger” refers literally to people who bought fruits and vegetables wholesale and sold them retail, the costermongers of Covent Garden sold anything from fresh produce to silk-worms to fried eels, hawking their wares at passers by. They trundled in and out of the market in droves, very few of them actually having fixed stalls in the marketplace, and were generally assisted by aides known as barra boys (a term originating from the Cockney "barrow boy," so called for being commonly seen pushing around wheelbarrows)." Daily Life in the 19th Century: Covent Garden, http://www.coventgardenmemories.org.uk/page_id__59.aspx

"The first known user of costermonger was Alexander Barclay (circa 1484- 1552), poet and clergyman, in the Fyfte Eglog of Alexandre Barclay of the cytezene and vpondyshman (1518?) 'I was acquaynted with many a hucster [=huckster], with a costardemonger and an hostler,' " Word Histories, http://wordhistories.com/2016/05/02/costermonger/

"Costermongers: During the late 1800s there were probably about 30,000 street sellers (known as costermongers) in London, each selling his or her particular wares from a barrow or donkey-cart." British Library, "The Working Classes and the Poor," https://www.bl.uk/victorian-britain/articles/the-working-classes-and-the-poor#sthash.MmihdYSt.dpuf

"Covent Garden market and the avenues leading to it are thronged with carts of all sorts, sizes, and descriptions, from the heavy lumbering wagon, with its four stout horses, to the jingling costermonger’s cart with its consumptive donkey...Eleven o’clock, and a new set of people fill the streets. The goods in the shop-windows are invitingly arranged; the shop-men, in their white neckerchiefs and spruce coats, look as if they couldn’t clean a window if their lives depended on it; the carts have disappeared from Covent Garden; the wagoners have returned, and the costermongers repaired to their ordinary “beats” in the suburbs. " Charles Dickens, Two City Sketches http://www.nereview.com/vol-37-no-4-2016/two-city-sketches/

"Street traders, or 'Costermongers' as they became known, have been an important feature of London life since the 11th century - and for the best part of 900 of those years they were unlicensed and itinerant - at times hounded by the authorities & bureaucracy. They cried their wares to attract customers with vigour and panache - much to the annoyance of London's 'well-to-do' society - yet they provided an essential service to London's poor; mainly selling their wares in small quantities around the streets & alleyways - at first from baskets, then progressing to barrows - then permanent static pitches from stalls - until they finally evolved into today's familiar and popular Markets." Stanford University, The History of the Pearly Kings and Queens, http://socialdance.stanford.edu/Syllabi/History_of_Pearly_Kings_and_Queens.pdf

"A peddler, in British English pedlar, also known as a canvasser, chapman, cheapjack, hawker, higler, huckster, monger, or solicitor, is a traveling vendor of goods. In England, the term was mostly used for travellers hawking goods in the countryside to small towns and villages; they might also be called tinkers or gypsies. In London more specific terms were used, such as costermonger." Wikiwand, http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Peddler

"Here is a clever invention of some costermonger or street-stander in the market-place for the shading of their candles on Saturday nights, when they are selling their greens, or potatoes, or fish. I have very often admired it. They put a lamp-glass round the candle, supported on a kind of gallery, which clasps it, and it can be slipped up and down as required. By the use of this lamp-glass, employed in the same way, you have a steady flame, which you can look at, and carefully examine, as I hope you will do, at home." Michael Faraday, The Chemical History of a Candle: Lecture I.-A Candle: The Flame-Its Sources-Structure-Mobility-Brightness, http://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/reso/007/03/0090-0098

A London flower-seller interviewed by Mayhew reported that her "brother earned from 1s. 6d. to 2s. a week, with an occasional meal, as a costermonger's boy." cited in Dirty Old London,"' by Lee Jackson (Yale University Press, 2015)

"The coster ordinarily confines himself to the cheaper sorts of plants, and rarely meddles with such things as acacias, mezereons, savines, syringas, lilacs, or even myrtles, and with none of these things unless cheap." and "A poor costermonger will on a fine summer's day send out his children to sell flowers, while on other days they may be selling watercresses or, perhaps, onions." Dirty Old London,"' by Lee Jackson (Yale University Press, 2015)

'Street Life in London', 1877, by John Thomson and Adolphe Smith

The deleted image appears to have been sourced from the British Library Collection where it carries the caption "Costermonger selling halfpenny ices by John Thomson 1876-77" but in Wiki Commons carries the caption "Street Life in London etc." See original at https://www.bl.uk/victorian-britain/articles/the-working-classes-and-the-poor#

Dating costermongers in London - 14th, 15th or 16th centuries?

I do not understand what the problemen about the dates is really about? When I first encountered this article, there was a sentence which read that "costermongers were known in London in the 16th century" BUT elsewhere in the article sources were quoted that placed them there at an earlier date of 15th century. Since then additional sources have been added that place them there in the 14th century. Using different dates in the same article is known as an internal contradiction and is considered very bad form in essay writing, on account of its tendency to confuse readers and undermine the reliability of the entire piece.

The original reference to the 16th century was unsourced and untagged. Now it has been changed to 14th century with an entire paragraph of supporting evidence, but it suddenly needs tagging with "cn." The date of 14th century is supported by a range of sources currently in the article, and especially by the sentences of the paragraph that immediately follows the statement. It is hardly controversial, it is not just verifiable, but is actually verfied. How much verification is needed for this statement?

I have seen secondary sources placing costermongers in London as early as the 11th century. For the moment, I cannot lay my hands on these sources, so I have been content to leave it at the 14th century since we have first hand accounts of costermongers active in London streets at that time. There are additional sources that also refer to these accounts. In addition to Mayhew (1848), who is already mentioned in the article, Charles Knight referred to a number of ballads, poems and plays that mention costermongers in London from the 14th century. See Charles Knight, London, 1851 (also known as a Cyclopedia of London,) Volume 1, pp 130-133 full text on Google Books, https://books.google.com.au/books?id=6uIHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=%22+London+Lyckpeny%22&source=bl&ots=6Fa80-CemA&sig=thkLcyUzk2L7-hILZdkAKBvp-DE&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22%20London%20Lyckpeny%22&f=false. Knight uses similar sources as does Mayhew, but Knight also uses unique sources and provides an extensive account of literary works that mention costers or describe their activites from the early 14th century. If necessary, I could produce a dozen or so individual references to support this statement, as I did to get "stalls" into the narrative in a previous edit.

If you really must revert the date back to the 16th century, then at least you should consider removing the 14th and 15th century references to costermonger activities so that the article stands up to close scrutiny and is internally consistent.

As for the reference to 11th century, this can always be amended at a later date when I locate the relevant sources. I am unwilling to get into a long debate about this because, based on the previous discussion, I have learned that it does not matter how much weight of evidence is produced, the edit will not be amended to reflect what the sources have to say. This type of trenchant defence of prior edits seems to be the Wikipedia way. It is very clear that there is some other agenda going on here. I would rather quit editing this article altogether than waste time defending simple edits that are self-evident and accurately reflect the cited sources, than produce more and more evidence in the face of a brick wall. Unfortunately, I have some notes to add to the "history" section and also to the section on "coster culture and style" - and while I would like to add these, it is not that important to me. And, yes, "coster" is a UK term, and is an abbreviation, that is widely used in both primary sources and secondary sources. It is appropriate because the article is primarily concerned with costers in England and London. And, if you don't like the sub-heading, you are free to amend it - which would be preferable to cryptic edit summaries. BronHiggs (talk) 00:19, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know whether you removed this because you realised, but all the dictionaries record 16th, that's confirmed by W Shakes use in late 1590's, the 13th C reference is "attributed the first written descriptions of the street sellers' distinctive cries and sales patter appearing in a ballad, entitled London Lyckpeny", so that supports the activity and distictive 'manner' but not necessarily the name. Dictionary rules mean that 'first use'= 'first written use' and WS's use indicates that the word is already well known to his audience, even if not a written word in 15XX. In a sense it doesn't matter "Costermongers were known to have been in London from at least the 15th century, and possibly much earlier". I would actually favour that being at least 16th, since that's what most dictionaries say, and they after all are the experts on history of words. I went back to 15th because that was the previous state. Pincrete (talk) 07:21, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I removed it because, on further investigation, there appears to be some debate as to whether the ballad in question was written in the late 14th or early 15th century. It was probably written in the late 1390s, but first performed in about 1409. That seems to be a level of detail that is too much for an article such as this, so it is best to omit it altogether. Thanks. BronHiggs (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Cheapside?

Are you sure?, not Eastcheap? Pincrete (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Ubiquity

Re: Costermongers were ubiquitous in mid-Victorian England, and a few are still found in markets.. This passage was NOT my contribution. It was in the article a long time before I began editing it. The use of the term "ubiquitous" bothers me somewhat, but it is not my practice to delete the contributions made by others. If you don't like it, please consider deleting or amending. I am extremely reluctant to touch it. Thanks. BronHiggs (talk) 22:04, 25 July 2017 (UTC)