Talk:Denis Avey/Archives/2012

Change to lead on 17th September 2012

That Avey smuggled cigarettes to Ernst Lobethal is confirmed by Lobethal himself in a video. The main controversy has been over whether he 'broke into Auschwitz' but see Broomby and Long's defence of this on Hodder's website SherlockHolmes249 (talk) 13:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)SherlockHolmes249

I understood that this is also disputed as Lobethal confirmed he received cigarettes, but from a man he knew only as 'Ginger'. Avey, only after Loebthal's account was public, claimed that this was he himself. And the 'Ginger' is considered by others to have been the British Pow 'Ginger' Parry. There is no corrobarative evidence that Denis Avey was ever nicknamed 'Ginger'. --Mystichumwipe (talk) 15:53, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

There's no evidence that Avey was aware of Lobethal's video recording when he told how he had smuggled cigarettes to someone named Ernie. It wasn't Avey himself who identified himself as the person who gave Lobethal cigarettes but Rob Broomby.

I think that it is fair that the general questions you raise should be raised, especially given that in the Radio Times oprogramme Avey's co-author Rob broomby states that Avey's account has now 'entered the normal historical process' of being scrutinised. However I think that there is too much detail but this may not be so excessive given that the article seems overlong, and hinders readers from getting to the main points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SherlockHolmes249 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Reading further the additions to the lead, I think the lead was too long before and is now much too long. However I think it is a little more balanced now as it should contain some indication of the controversy as this has now been acknowledged by the BBC who originally brought Avey's story before the public. It would be interesting to hear with others think on this SherlockHolmes249 (talk) 16:19, 17 September 2012 (UTC)SherlockHolmes249

I myself don't agree that the lead was too long. And I think it is essential to have some mention of the controversy in the lead which otherwise gives the false impression that Mr. Avey's account is uncontested accepted fact. It is not.

Also 1998 was the year that the Ernst Lobet/Lobethal interview was released (Steven Spielberg’s USC Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation) where he related about a "young 'Ginger' maybe 22" and cigarettes [1]. So we know that this is defintely BEFORE Mr. Avey made the claim that he had given cigarettes to a Jewish inmate.--Mystichumwipe (talk) 23:22, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Question of consensus

Myself (Mystichumwipe), Sceptic1954 and Griz999 all seem to be of a similar position regarding the content of this article and the need to include more detail of the controversy regarding the accuracy of Mr. Avey's account. Therefore, there appears to be a consensus here that is in opposition to that of Wikiwatcher1.

To confirm, could these (and any other) editors comment on whether they approve of the suggestion to include something along the lines of the following in the article, (or not):

1.)

Problems identified in Mr. Avey's different accounts

Eight differing versions given by Mr. Avery were noted by Guy Walters, Jeremy Duns and Adrian Weale. Nicholas Hellen writing in the Sunday Times also detailed problems of significant differences between versions of Avey's accounts, notably between the five hours of taped Imperial War Museum interviews of July 2001 and the book account first published in March 2011. These include

• significant differences between earlier accounts and the published one including key elements of his story were changed before the book was published.
• Mr. Avey's earlier accounts included details of an Australian POW who worked stoking the crematoria in Birkenau yet there is no record of the imprisonment of a British or Australian POW who worked with the Jewish Sonderkommando. An Australian, Donald Watt, had published a book in 1995 claiming to be a stoker at Auschwitz but there is no evidence that Watt had even been in Auschwitz-Birkenau and his account was later exposed as fraudulent and discredited.
• Mr. Avey’s swap story is very similar to another published account in a book titled "The Password Is Courage" which is accepted as fraudulent. That book was written by another former PoW at camp E715, Charles Coward.
• Mr. Avey said when he entered the Monowitz camp he marched under the "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign yet that sign was at not at Auschwitz III but at Auschwitz I, six miles away.
• the camp which he says he smuggled himself into differed in the accounts. In the taped account, Avey said he swapped with a prisoner in Auschwitz-Birkenau. In the book account he wrote that he swapped with an inmate of the labour camp, Auschwitz III-Monowitz).
• the name of the prisoner with whom he exchanged places differed in the accounts. In the book, he wrote that he swapped with a Dutch Jewish inmate called ‘Hans’ and smuggled himself into Auschwitz III. In a 2009 Daily Mail interview and in a talk to Oxford students he said he swapped with prisoner Ernst Lobethal into Auschwitz II, or Birkenau.
• criticism has been made concerning the length of time after the event allowed to pass before first narrating the swap incident.
• Mr Avey partly explained the delay by claiming that military authorities after the war were not interested in his account. Yet in 1947 he had declined the invitation to make an affidavit of his time as a POW, when contacted by American prosecutors who were documenting camp conditions for war crimes trials.
• Yad Vashem, the Holocaust remembrance authority,has said it is "unable to substantiate his account of the prisoner swap"

and to have some reference to the above in the lead, such as:

2.)

But problems with the details of his story and differences in his account in the book to those of his interviews and talks have been raised. The whole account has been doubted by among others Piotr Setkiewicz, the head of research at the Auschwitz-Birkenau memorial and museum, who has said: "...I don't think this (the swap) happened." --Mystichumwipe (talk) 10:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)