Talk:Durin

Durin (Norse mythology)

There needs to be a separate article on the Durin of Norse mythology (at the moment a number of Norse mythology articles link to this article, which is essentially about the Tolkien character) -- Picapica 21:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

This should really be renamed to Durin (Middle-earth) and all the references updated. I'll add it to the Tolkien to-do list. Thu 08:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

The way it usually works is that if there is one article for a give name then that name is given to that article regardless of how many other things in all existence (without articles) share the same name. If there are two or more articles on things with the same name then if one of them is clearly more likely to be searched for than all the others combined then it appears at the page with that name and a 'hatnote' linking to the other articles or a disambiguation page (if there are several) is inserted at the top of the article. If there are multiple articles and none is overwhelmingly more likely to be searched for than the others then the base article name is itself the disambiguation page.

So, all that being said... someone needs to actually create a Durin (Norse mythology) page. Even then I don't think it is likely to be searched for often and could become just a hatnote on this current page and the Norse mythology links updated to go there instead. --CBDunkerson 11:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the reference to Durin IV being a part of the Last Alliance. That just isn't true - I had to edit that bit out on the Last Alliance page as well. --Username911

Calling the Old Norse original dwarf Durinn with the nominative case marker -n is a better way of naming him than the cumbersome Durin (norse mythology), IMHO.--Berig 17:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Durin II, IV, and V

Do we really need to list these separately? Nothing was written about them, that I know of. The information under Durin II belongs rather under Dwarf (Middle-earth) or Durin's Folk. The blurb for Durin IV is completely unsupported, and the one for Durin V is nothing but speculation. I propose removing all three. Elphion (talk) 03:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The Durin on the Westgate

Commentators have speculated on whether "Durin" on the Westgate inscription refers to Durin II or Durin III. Our task is to report that, not to judge which is correct. (The obvious answer, of course, is that they refer to Durin I anyway. :-) -- Elphion (talk) 13:27, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Elphion. It appears however that more is involved than mere speculation. (BTW, on your parenthetical matter one may wish to consider Gandalf's statement: "the West-door was made chiefly for their [Eregion Elves'] use" [FotR 2:IV:316], and Eregion did not come into existence until well after Durin I "died".)

In the article, the text for Durin III currently states that his identification with the Doors of Durin is (1) a “reasonable” inference and (2) “appears to be unsupported by direct evidence from Tolkien”. Premise (2) is technically correct (indeed I’m not aware of any such evidence supporting Durin III directly), but it’s not the whole story. For there is other evidence from Tolkien’s writings which support Durin II rather than Durin III, and this other evidence, albeit indirect, all indicates that premise (1) is not so reasonable after all.

As a prelude to this evidence, it can be observed that (apart from the unique case of Durin the Deathless) the lifespan of a Dwarf was about 250 years (the longest-lived Dwarf on record is Dwalin, at 340 years), and the average reign for a Dwarf-king was about a century (Thráin I holds the record with 209 years).

The first piece of evidence is the general relationship between Khazad-dûm and Eregion (founded c. S.A. 750 and ruined in 1697). Their relationship was of great mutual benefit, and the additional advantages of an all-weather short-cut between them must surely have become apparent quite soon, and not left to the last century or so of Eregion’s existence (i.e. the reign of Durin III), when in any case people were pre-occupied with Rings of Power. I’m not aware of anything which supports the notion that the relationship between Khazad-dûm and Eregion was slow to take off; indeed the contrary is supported by the next piece of the puzzle.

The second piece of evidence is the relationship between Celebrimbor and Narvi (whose names are on the doors). Tolkien notes that “soon” after the establishment of Eregion, Celebrimbor became closely involved with Khazad-dûm’s dwarves, “among whom his greatest friend” was Narvi [UT part 2 ch. IV p.235]. If Narvi was alive during Eregion’s first few centuries, he would have well and truly dead before reign of Durin III. Yes this piece of evidence derives from Tolkien’s unfinalized writings, but I’m not aware of anything that contradicts it.

The third piece of evidence comes from Gandalf. He stated, “In the days of Durin ... [the doors] usually stood open” [FotR 2:IV:318]. This is surely not Durin III, who famously shut the doors fast in S.A. 1697.

The fourth piece of evidence is Galadriel. In The Lord of the Rings Galadriel says that she “passed over the mountains” in the First Age (although it’s not clear whether she means the Blue Mountains, the Misty Mountains, or both). However as well as passing “over” mountains, she also muses on the “many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm”, as if she had personally visited them at least once. (In connection with this reminiscence she mentions the Elder Days, but this can include the Second Age. The very latest she could have visited was S.A. 1697, before both gates of Moria were shut.) Indeed Tolkien wrote that Galadriel passed “through” Khazad-dûm around S.A. 1400 [UT part 2 ch. IV p.237], indicating that the Doors of Durin were already in existence a century or two before the commencement of the reign of Durin III. Admittedly this same piece of writing states that Galadriel was accompanied by Amroth; but even though the relationship between Galadriel and Amroth is uncertain, this does not discount the notion that Galadriel travelled through Khazad-dûm in about S.A. 1400 (whether or not she was actually accompanied by Amroth).

As a consequence of this evidence, I propose that the sentence beginning, “This is a reasonable reference...” be replaced by something like, “However this inference is not supported by any direct evidence from Tolkien, and indirect evidence from Tolkien instead favours Durin II.” If the reference to Foster needs to be retained under Durin III, then I suggest that it be modified to something like, “(The conclusion that Durin II probably built the Gate was published by Foster in 1971).”

The matter needs to be more fully treated under Durin II. The item on Durin II in Middle-earth dwarf characters#Durin, and his reincarnations also needs to be updated. However I’d first like to open the matter up for discussion.

While on this page, I suggest that under Durin IV the part beginning “but he does not say ...” be replaced with something like, “but he is not clear whether the king at the time was Durin.” What Tolkien actually wrote at the reference given (QS p.294) was, “the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron,” This firstly necessitates the upgrading of “Tolkien indicates” to something like, “Tolkien states”. Furthermore, the otherwise superfluous phrase “of Moria” could be interpreted to mean that a Durin was the lord of Moria at the time, with the sentence meaning that this king did not personally fight in the War, although some of his people did. Equally of course, "of Moria" could be mere flourish, with no other intention.

Cheers, Jungleboy63 (talk) 11:38, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

No, this would not be appropriate. This is exactly what WP:OR warns us against. My tongue-in-cheek suggestion above (that since the Dwarves had a habit of naming things after the mythological Durin I, the West Gate might be another example) holds as much water as any of the arguments above. We simply don't know, and WP:OR says we shouldn't speculate. -- Elphion (talk) 13:18, 2 November 2016 (UTC)