Talk:ESPS
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Spanish warships
[edit]@Lyndaship: has reverted my addition of the Ship prefix for the Spanish Navy to this page. The prefix is not used by the Spanish Navy itself, but is frequently used in news sources to refer to their ships. Dab pages are not supposed to have reference lists, but some could be added to the Ship Prefix article to support the usage. Would this be sufficient for the abbreviation to be included on this page? Tevildo (talk) 16:41, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Firstly I would like to see some of these news sources which use it. Are they mainstream nautical ones or popular press which just reprint press releases? Secondly I do not think we should give any credence to prefixes made up by some external organisations to fit their own needs for shorthand identification - which organisations should we accept and which reject? Thirdly we do not use any made up prefixes in the titling of any of our ship articles, its Italian frigate Euro not ITS Euro, French frigate Forbin not FS Forbin etc. Finally see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships/Archive_54#Ship_prefixes_used_by_NATO and WP:NCS Lyndaship (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- From EUNAVFOR [1] [2] [3]. There are two points I'd like to make. First, I'm not proposing introducing the prefix to any of our Spanish warship articles; my only concern is that, if a casual reader wants to know what it means, they get to Ship prefix with the minimum of effort. Secondly, we are not in the business of determining if a particular term is "correct", only that it's (a) notable and (b) used in reliable sources. If the term, however incorrect, is commonly used, we should, in my opinion, record that usage. Tevildo (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- These examples are all press releases from the EU using their self determined made up prefixes, they are only reliable sources in that they prove that they use these prefixes. This does not show that these prefixes are frequently used in news sources Lyndaship (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- And that, in my view, is all we need to do. We're not concerned with the validitiy of the term, only the fact that it's used. It's like "Me 109". It's not a term that should be used, but it is used, and we, as an encyclopedia, record that fact. Tevildo (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- These examples are all press releases from the EU using their self determined made up prefixes, they are only reliable sources in that they prove that they use these prefixes. This does not show that these prefixes are frequently used in news sources Lyndaship (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Since ESPS is included, alongside other NATO-type prefixes, in Ship prefix, where it's use is explained, it seems entirely proper that this dab page should point there. Dab pages don't make any claim about anything, they are a guide to help the reader find something that is already in WP. Just a tweak in the brief wording needed: something like "The NATO ship prefix used for warships of the Spanish Navy". Davidships (talk) 01:28, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- From EUNAVFOR [1] [2] [3]. There are two points I'd like to make. First, I'm not proposing introducing the prefix to any of our Spanish warship articles; my only concern is that, if a casual reader wants to know what it means, they get to Ship prefix with the minimum of effort. Secondly, we are not in the business of determining if a particular term is "correct", only that it's (a) notable and (b) used in reliable sources. If the term, however incorrect, is commonly used, we should, in my opinion, record that usage. Tevildo (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Two !votes to one may not really be a "consensus", but as nobody apart from @Lyndaship: has objected, I've re-added the entry using Davidships' wording. Tevildo (talk) 08:54, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Conversely it could be argued that as nobody has agreed with you apart from Davidships than it shouldn't be changed. However as his proposed wording corrects the original assertion that it is a prefix used by warships of the Spanish Navy to used for I will not object further. Lyndaship (talk) 09:03, 8 November 2020 (UTC)