Talk:El Nora Alila

English-language translation

Well, what's the policy on translations like this? The translator tried hard to make the lines rhyme, instead of exactly following the meaning. For example, בִּשְׁעַת הַנְּעִילָה (bi-sh'at ha-ne'ilah) means "at the hour of locking," not "as Your gates are closed this night." Maybe this translator should be credited (if the translation is in the public domain). Can anyone locate the source of this translation? --cbdorsett (talk) 04:56, 14 November 2010 (UTC) ¶ I will concede that the phrase means "at the time of closing" - but night is implied because the gates of the Temple in Jerusalem were customarily closed at night.Sussmanbern (talk) 08:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It has been my experience, that poetic works are rarely translated literally, lest all the art of the work be lost in translation. However, it might be worth asking at the contributor’s talk page about the source of the translation. However, be warned that the editor did not make the edit from a registered account. Therefore, the IP address may not be his/hers the next time s/he visits Wikipedia; thus, s/he may not receive the query. You might also take a look at Wikipedia:Translation (shortcut → WP:RFT) for any guidance. — Spike Toronto 05:21, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

¶ I believe this rhyming translation pre-dates this Wiki article (e.g. it appears in the video I linked up). I am not altogether happy with this "free" translation because it eliminates several textual spots that deserve a proper explication. IF there is sufficient response, I could replace the lyric translation with a more literal one. I have added a second transliteration of the Hebrew title simply because I wasted a considerable amount of time looking for just this article, but using a different transliteration. I have added some references, and I hope this meets with your approval. Sussmanbern (talk) 23:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The rhymed translation shown is by David De Sola Pool in his "Prayers for the Day of Atonement" (according to the customs of the Spanish and Portuguese Jews.) 1939. I also have one additional verse not included here as shown in the Livorno (Sephardic) machzor for the Day of Atonement, but in parentheses suggesting some special usage or inclusion only in some minhagim. The De Sola Pool book leaves this out. The verse is: (מְחֵה כָעָב פְּשָׁעִים, וַעֲשֵׂה נָא חֶסֶד עִם, מְקוֹרָאִים סְגֻלָה, בִּשְׁעַת הַנְּעִילָה.) which I would translate as: Replace our guilt with kind deeds He who made us his special treasure, as Your gates are closed this night. By the way, I would translate neila as "closing" not "locking" based on idiomatic usage keyed to the neila service, also usually translated as closing. I wold also note that this piyut has been included in the Conservative machsor, but with only the first 7 verses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RAltabet (talk • contribs) 18:13, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I also have singable Ladino lyrics for all but the first I cite avove if anyone thinks I should post -- Unfortunately, I don't have a citation on where I originally got them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RAltabet (talk • contribs) 18:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

¶ To add to my previous comment of some years ago, originally this article included a lyric translation - of which I disapproved because, although nice in its own right, it did not match the meaning of the original Hebrew precisely. Eventually the lyric translation was deleted (my memory of this is vague, maybe I am the one who deleted it). A literal, non-lyrical, translation ought to be posted. There are such translations available (e.g., in the Orot Mahzor and the Birnbaum Mahzor). Unfortunately, for my purposes, the temptation to turn a translation into something lyrical that can be sung in English to the same melody, and unavoidably departs from the literal meanings, is too strong for most translators. Anyway, I wish that someone would add a literal translation. Also I wish that someone would make the initial letters in each Hebrew stanza bold or large, to call attention to the acrostic. I would do it myself - except that my grasp of html technique (especially when part of this is in Hebrew) is too limited. If someone wants to give me instructions on how to do either enlarging the Hebrew initials or putting an English translation in the right position, please please please do so. Sussmanbern (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

¶ October 2014, Spike was able to bring back the DeSola Pool lyric English translation, I compared it with the 1931 original text and made tiny changes, then added some side notes to explain some images in the piyut. I hope (but don't expect) this will please everybody. Sussmanbern (talk) 00:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]