Talk:Electro-industrial

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Aggrotech for me was always that bit more twisted than some of its counterparts, real extreme mash-up material. I was pretty much on the Horrocore scene from 93' to about 95' but as soon as i heard 'Alien Vampires' beast it out at the Cybergrind Disco in Winchester i switched my allegences!! lol Any beginners that want to check for some good Aggrotech tunes that don't get much respect should definately check out anything that came out on the 'Bagpuss' label between 1994 and 1998. Especially 'Brand New Nazareth' and the 'Rapist in the Cornfield' EP. Got some absolutely monged out beat slapping on there. He uses a low frequency industrial hand dryer unit and then filters it through an actual bee-hive at one point, and the results will literraly blow you away. Ultra Dark YES!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexanderTheG.O.A.T (talkcontribs) 13:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

At First Sorry for my english - im from Germany But i would Like to say following..

If you Take a Look to Electro-industrial Acts from the 80's Like skinny puppy, Please dont forgett that they used Guitars Since Mid 80s (Testure Dig it,) and Skinny puppy Is Not a industrial Rock /Metal Band.They Were just influenced by Post Punk Bands Like Killing Joke or Bauhaus. So i Think it would be better to Write that electro industrial Bands from the 80s First started to add Guitars to their Music :) So Maybe it would be better to add this fact to the article -


BTW The "Post" process era of skinny puppy Shows that Post Industrial / Electro Industrial Bands used Elements of Differend Experimental Electronic Music styles (IDM, Glitch.. ) best examples for this are the Albums Handover 2011 and Weapon 2013 Or the New Album from FLA with Elements of dupstep

Maybe Someone can add those Facts to the article Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brosi90 (talkcontribs) 19:15, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Aggrotech and electro-industrial[edit]

What is the difference between these two styles? I think that perhaps the two terms are synoymous. Aryder779 (talk) 22:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Read the articles. Electro-industrial is an electro style with a post-industrial influence (listen to Skinny Puppy, Mentallo & the Fixer and Numb). In contrast to Electro-industrial, Aggrotech is technoid music with a strong 4/4 techno bass drum and technoid hooklines (listen to Aghast View, Funker Vogt, Combichrist, X-Fusion, Cenobita and other groups). The terms Aggrotech and Hellektro are synonymous, but not Electro-industrial. --Ada Kataki (talk) 12:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I have read the articles, and I've listened to many of these groups.. So electro-industrial is a supposedly a hybrid of electro and industrial whereas aggrotech is a hybrid of techno and industrial (or this is what I take you to mean by "technoid"). The difference between electro (as you're using it) and techno is very, very slight. Techno's just faster. What you're telling me is that aggrotech is electro-industrial with a more techno rhythm. I don't see that such a minor distinction requires entirely separate pages. Aryder779 (talk) 20:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
(I added an "aggotech" section to this page, mostly by copying and pasting from the "List of industrial music subgenres" page. Ada Kataki deleted it, leaving the note: "please, create a seperate article... aggrotech is an outgrowth, not a subgenre... electro-industrial is a genre, not an umbrella term" in the history.)
Ada Kataki: I respect your opinion. However, at this point it's in fact impossible to create a separate article for Aggrotech, because if you take a look at its redirect page, it's been locked. There must have been too many spurious resurrections and repetitive AFDs. This reflects the lack of reliable sources for the term. I don't see why there's any particular magic in attempting to maintain an entirely separate page, rather than recording information on the style here in its parent genre. I saw Haujobb and Combichrist in concert together about a year ago. I don't think anyone at that show would have considered the former to be occupying a significantly different genre from the latter.
BTW: A Google search for "Combichrist aggrotech" turns up 15,500 hits. A search for "Combichrist electro-industrial" gets 40,100. This strongly indicates that aggrotech groups are also considered electro-industrial groups. Combichrist's official Myspace page lists them as "Electro/Industrial". Aryder779 (talk) 15:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I've also seen Feindflug along with a number of electro-industrial groups, and I didn't find them to occupy a distinct genre either (other than the power noise elements). Google for "Feindflug aggrotech" pulls up 3,860; "Feindflug electro-industrial": 24,000. In other words, I see very little evidence that aggrotech can be considered a verifiable genre in itself, rather than a subgenre term for electro-industrial with techno rhythms. Aryder779 (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I've seen Funker Vogt too. "Funker Vogt aggrotech": 6,090 / "Funker Vogt electro-industrial": 36,300. Aryder779 (talk) 03:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Any reliable source for your POV? It's your opinion if you think that hellectro is a subgenre of electro-industrial. It' your own theory if you think dark electro is a subgenre of electro-industrial. --Ada Kataki (talk) 12:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

                • It's all industrial.... Subgenres are stupid. - God —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.130.149 (talk) 01:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Sources: aggrotech/electro-industrial[edit]

First, I want to say that it's a little bit odd that you're demanding sources now, given that no sources have ever been provided for the existence of aggrotech, or its synonymity with hellektro, and all of the sources currently provided on this page for electro-industrial have been supplied by me. I've also seen the term TBM (techno body music) and Terror EBM suggested. We could conceivably have separate pages for electro-industrial, hellektro, TBM, aggrotech, dark electro, and terror EBM. Or actually, we can't, because "aggrotech" has already failed so many AFDs that the page has been locked in order to prevent re-creation. The point is that a number of marketing terms are thrown around in the scene, and there aren't a large number of sources explaining their relationship. So some intrepretive gusto is necessary. I've already provided evidence from Combichrist's Myspace page that they consider themselves Electro/Industrial; if you'll look up Feindflug, Funker Vogt and many of the other groups considered here as "aggrotech", they also self-identify this way. I understand that Myspace is somewhat questionable according to WP:RELIABLE, but given that these are official sources maintained by the groups in question, I think they can be considered with all the usual caution appropriate to self-published sources. Now, with that said, here are some sources:

  • "Combichrists reaches out with menacing claws to assimilate trance style beats to its darker electro industrial purposes." [1]
  • "This (Combichrist) is the solo electro-industrial/EBM/power noise project of Andy LaPlegua." [2]
  • "Icon of Coil frontman Andy LaPlegua brought you his new electro/industrial project called CombiChrist . The first release, on Out Of Line Records, The Joy Of Gunz presented a very hard edged EBM/industrial sound." [3]
  • "CombiChrist is an electro/industrial band ..." [4]
  • "This is pure heavy electro-industrial/EBM the way Funker Vogt has always made it with hyper frantic electronic programming, slamming bass beats, dark dramatic melodies and rough and tough male vocals." [5]
  • "Feindflug is an east German electro / industrial project/band..." [6]
  • "With FEINDFLUG and SUPREME COURT two leading representatives of Electro, Industrial and EBM came together to join in a long-planned project ..." [7]

I could continue citing sources specifying electro-industrial for every group here discussed as aggrotech (or dark electro), but I don't want to fill this page with redundancies. The point is that aggrotech groups are also considered electro-industrial groups. Do you have any counter-sourcing specifying that 1) these groups should be considered aggrotech and 2) (much more importantly) that aggrotech is an entirely separate genre from electro-industrial, as opposed to a subgenre? Aryder779 (talk) 16:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Forget MySpace. It's absolutely irrelevant. MySpace has only a handful of genre tags. There is neither a Darkwave tag nor an Aggrotech tag or an Electro-industrial tag. Aggrotech is more Techno than Industrial. That's the difference between the genres. I don't think, that Combishit has any Industrial influence. It's simply club Techno for ravers. The same with Funker Vogt, Feindflug and other bands. Listen to Skinny Puppy, Mentallo & The Fixer ("Where Angels Fear to Tread") and Numb ("Death on the Installment Plan"). This is electro-industrial with complex structures, Korg, Alesis, Ensoniq, etc.. Agrrotech is only boom boom, utz utz, bawl bawl, distorted Techno House sounds, cold CS1x elements, Roland 909 bass drums etc. The sounds and the track structures are completely different.
I give a shit about reviews and other stuff. Journalists are idiots. They're no musician and they're no music scientists. --Ada Kataki (talk) 06:57, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't particularly like Combichrist or other aggrotech either, truth be told, though I live in Atlanta and I can attest that they are definitely much, much more a part of the industrial scene than anything like techno/rave. I've been listening to Skinny Puppy for about the past ten years and I've seen them play live too. I don't disagree with you that the aggrotech sound is very different than older electro-industrial, but it's still a subgenre, as the sources indicate. I also get frustrated with the claims made in the music press, but Wikipedia relies on such sources (see WP:NOR, WP:RELIABLE, and WP:NPOV). So you and I are free to think that aggrotech kind of sucks, but the sources indicate that it's a form of electro-industrial, so it should be covered on this page to some degree.
I'd actually really like to include more information here on classic electro-industrial, and I have no problem with that being the main focus. Aryder779 (talk) 01:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Merge with EBM[edit]

This page includes very little information and cites almost no sources. I've seen the term used to refer to Wolf Eyes, which is obviously a different usage (though they do sound a bit like Skinny Puppy). This page needs to be fixed or merged. Aryder779 (talk) 22:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Further: "deep, layered and complex sound" - this doesn't pass muster. What, Front 242 and Nitzer Ebb don't have a complex sound? What's really being said is that electro-industrial is *noisier*. Classic EBM is just as layered or complex. Aryder779 (talk) 23:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Nitzer Ebb don't have a complex sound. It's minimalistic music, inspired by DAF and other groups. --Ada Kataki (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
You're right about that, Nitzer Ebb aren't layered, they're minimal. I wasn't thinking. Where would you put Skinny Puppy in this lineage?
I maintain that if electro-industrial is essentially just noisier or denser EBM, it doesn't need its own page. Can we find some sources for the usage of the term? In the history, you compare merging EBM and electro-industrial to merging synthpop and house music. The reason why this analogy doesn't hold is that there are plenty of sources for synthpop, and for house music, and for the relationship between the two styles. No such evidence is presented on this page with regard to electro-industrial. I'm not denying that wumpscut sounds very different from Front 242, but at this point there's no reason not to regard the former as a descendent of the latter. Aryder779 (talk) 20:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it's unlikely that I'll be able to garner consensus on a merger between electro-industrial and electronic body music, so I'm giving up on that idea. I have added information on dark electro and aggrotech to this page, and plan on looking for more references to substantiate the claims made here. Aryder779 (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Industrial drum'n'bass[edit]

Why does Industrial drum'n'bass redirect here?--92.74.112.139 (talk) 01:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You're right. The redirect should be deleted. There's no Industrial DNB (maybe it's only a synonym for Breakcore?). --Ada Kataki (talk) 12:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Groups like Haujobb, who are electro-industrial, seem to me to be "industrial dnb" (though it's very loosely defined). These groups are distinct from breakcore, though I guess a redirect to breakcore could also be appropriate. I'll go do that right now. Aryder779 (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I see it's already been done. Aryder779 (talk) 17:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Dark Wave[edit]

Electro-Industrial is an outgrowth of EBM and Post-Industrial, not Darkwave. --Ada Kataki (talk) 12:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

As the article indicates, a prominent critic has discerned strong influence from Depeche Mode, Joy Division, and New Order, on Skinny Puppy, and Velvet Acid Christ (who I realize are a later group) cite Cocteau Twins, The Cure and Siouxsie and The Banshees. My understanding is that these are all dark wave groups. I can see from the dark wave talk page that you (Ada Kataki) are something of an expert on the style, so to a degree I defer to your judgment, but it seems to me that dark wave is another source for the electro-industrial sound, in addition to EBM and industrial. Aryder779 (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, you're right. But SP and VAC are two bands only. But there are thousand of Electro-industrial bands. Furthermore the main influences on Skinny Puppy are Throbbing Gristle and Portion Control. Listen to Electro-industrial... there is no audible Dark Wave influence. --Ada Kataki (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Das Ich and Die Form are both also post-dark wave electro-industrial. I think that the entire genre draws on dark wave. Aryder779 (talk) 00:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

"Post-industrial"[edit]

I hate the genre description "post-industrial" as much as I hate the use of "post-hardcore". It's either industrial, or it's not. It's either hardcore, or it's not. Do we really need to use the term "post"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omair00 (talkcontribs) 22:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that the stylistic origins box can afford to be more specific than "post-industrial". Post-industrial links to Post-industrial music genres and related fusion genres, where eleven different subgenres are listed, most of which have nothing to do electro-industrial. In addition, the list there is not comprehensive (it neglects ambient industrial, death industrial -- and electro-industrial! -- for example). I don't think very many electro-industrial groups take any influence at all from power electronics, harsh noise, Japanoise, martial industrial, neofolk, or industrial rock, and aggrotech, power noise and technoid came after electro-industrial. So almost nothing discussed on that page has any bearing on electro-industrial.

It seems to me that what we're really saying is that electro-industrial borrows from the dance elements of EBM but combines them with the harshness and distortion of older industrial music or with the textures of ambient industrial or dark ambient. Aryder779 (talk) 23:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds not like Dark Ambient/Ambient Industrial to me. It's more danceable like SPK with distorted EBM beats and metallic rhythms. I agree, there is a little Ambient influence (Numb for example). But bands such as Decoded Feedback, Front Line Assembly and others haven't really a strong ambient influence. Electro-industrial is a harsh and danceable genre with catchy melodies, but it's a not specific Post-industrial style. --Ada Kataki (talk) 00:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

is this neutral?[edit]

I don't know about either genre but the line "(much along the lines of extreme metal bands, without the effort)" in the Aggrotech section kinda feels biased to me. Again: I don't know for sure, as I am not familiar with this genre. It's just the choice of words that confused me for a moment... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.150.221 (talk) 12:40, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

It may not be the most neutral way to say it, but it's perfectly accurate and it made me laugh. 220.233.92.204 (talk) 11:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)