Talk:Envelope (music)

Hardware history

In the early 1970s analog keyboard synthesizers such as the ARP 2600 and Odyssey were mostly limited to two-note polyphony. Later in that decade, integrated circuits made it possible to build an envelope generator on a circuit board about the size of a business card, cheaply enough that 88 copies could fit in the housing of a reasonably portable keyboard. With that, each key could trigger its own envelope, and fully polyphonic synthesizers reached the market. With a quick look around Wikipedia, I did not find the specific model I'm thinking of, but I remember having one open on a workbench when it was still a novelty. Just plain Bill (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

envelope: incorrect definition

This is the current, misleading lede section:

"In sound and music, an envelope describes how a sound changes over time. It normally relates to the amplitude (volume), but it may also involve elements such as filters (frequencies) or pitch.[citation needed] For example, a piano key, when struck and held, creates a near-immediate initial sound which gradually decreases in volume to zero. Envelope generators, which allow users to control the different stages of a sound, are common features of synthesizers, samplers, and other electronic musical instruments."

But not according to any dictionary.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/envelope
American Heritage Dictionary https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=envelope
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/envelope
Oxford is slightly related, but electronics, not sound nor music:
Oxford Dictionaries; https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/envelope
2.4 Electronics A curve joining the successive peaks of a modulated wave. ‘Noise, when used with a vocal modulator, traces the envelope of the vocal with wideband noise.’

Please note, "amplitude" is also an electronics term, not a musical term, however due to association with electronic sound modification, even simple amplification, that term is seeping in, and one day may become synonymous with volume. This seeping may be happening with other terms, but we do not want to assume that synthesizer engineer's jargon is plain english, it's not even well known among most musicians. I think that assumption (synthesizer jargon is English) was the problem.

I think this is a more accurate description:

In electronic music and electronic sound creation an envelope is an important term describing how a sound changes over time. It relates to the amplitude (volume) and usually involve elements such as frequencies or pitch.[citation needed] [There are zero filters in a piano.  And timbre?] As an analogy, a piano key, when struck and held, creates a near-immediate initial sound which gradually decreases in volume to zero. In electronic music and electronic sound generation that is called an envelope.  Electronic envelope generators, which allow users to control the different stages of a sound, are important features of synthesizers, samplers, and other electronic musical instruments.

That's more accurate, but my knowledge of music and synthesizers is not enough to write a clear explanation. It only describes volume, only hints at timbre and ignores other qualities including synthesizer failures such as voice, sax, and other complex sound emulations. I had to use "Electronic envelope generators," rather than "envelope generators," since pianos are defined out of "envelope generators" above since they don't allow control the different stages of a sound. I believe calling any sound from a piano an envelope is wrong, it's an analogy, and until that is acknowledged, a clear definition is doomed to fail. Is a tape player an envelope generator? Perhaps, but it is not an envelope creator, hence attack and timbre seem academic.

The above seems like a confused mess. Please educate me.
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:6C37:E6B3:5E64:776E (talk) 08:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)Just Saying

It seems your point is that since the musical definition of envelope is not mentioned in any of the dictionaries you looked at, you're free to change the definition given here to be more in line with your preconceptions as someone with limited knowledge of music and synthesizers. I don't find your proposal to be an improvement over what's currently in the lead. We do need to pin this down with some references. A dictionary is probably not going to cut it here; We need to be looking at music or electronic music texts. ~Kvng (talk) 14:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

The concept of an envelope is not limited to electronic synthesis. Traditional pianos have pedals that control dampers inside the piano, allowing a note to be softened or made to reverberate. On a violin the speed, weight, and position of the bow can be used to make notes legato, staccato, etc.

BTW, the latter part of this article does not mention the popular attack-decay1-sustain-decay2-release envelope used by a large number of (esp. Yamaha) synthesizers. 68.247.100.1 (talk) 16:42, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

While attack, decay, and release refer to time, sustain refers to level.

Mini edit war here. I agree the units of the parameters is described in the bullet points above but I think it is worth highlighting this one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-others situation instead of asking readers to discover it. I remember it took me longer than it should have, years, to realize this when I started using synthesizers. ~Kvng (talk) 17:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about this and I would have accepted the revert had you explained your rationale there in the edit summary. As it was, it sounded like you were saying "I don't see how this repeats anything". Fine with restoring it. Popcornfud (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

My WP:ES was "doesn't seem redundant to me." Sorry for being terse. ~Kvng (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC)