Talk:Glasite/archive-1

Churches.

My intention is to edit this section using the following referenced material.

John Barnard, uncle of Michael Faraday's father-in-law, Edward, brought followers to his London meeting house, named Glover's Hall. John Barnard's petition to Robert Sandeman brought the latter south to London from Scotland in April 1761 with his brother William and John Handasyde, an elder from the Northumberland meeting house. This visit led to the establishment of a legitimately constituted Sandemanian congregation on 23 March 1762. After the schism, part of this congregation moved to Paul's Alley in the Barbican in the autumn of 1785 to seat the expanding congregation. This 2nd London meeting house was that of Michael Faraday's youth. The London congregation moved again in September 1862 to Barnsbury Grove in North London to seat the expanding congregation. The congregation met at this location for some 37 years. This 3rd London meeting house and Michael Faraday's seat were commemorated by Lord Kelvin in 1906 by way of a plaque. (Cantor, 1991, pp. 38-43) CUoD 15:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by JamAKiska (talk • contribs)

1842 numbers do not total the amount shown. CUoD (talk) 02:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Need more research on Robert Sandeman to include another London meeting house in 1760. CUoD (talk) 04:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford Methodists: memoirs of the Rev. Messrs. Clayton, Ingham, Gambold ... By Luke Tyerman pages 145-6 seems to dispute this version. While the Reverend Benjamin Ingham sent private messengers, Mr. Allan and Mr. Batty, to learn more from Glas and Sandeman following Sandeman's published response in 1757, there is no indication from this author that Sandeman personally visited. There is no doubt that the Sandemanian views prevailed within Ingham's congregations as the resulting discussions created rifts that caused Ingham to lose much of his flock on or before 1760. CUoD (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

p126 of Transactions refers to London meeting house called St. Martin's-le-grand in a pamphlet published in Boston in 1766. Map p176 The London magazine, or, Gentleman's monthly intelligencer, Volume 35 By Isaac Kimber, Edward Kimber. Fourth Precinct - Barbican Lane - St.Martin-le-grand. CUoD (talk) 03:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Census of Great Britain, 1851: religious worship in England and Wales By Great Britain. Census Office, Horace Mann supports 1762 formation of congregation in London, though does not specify a location. The religious life of London By James Ewing Ritchie indicates the year 1760 in the Barbican. CUoD (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Roll of eminent burgesses of Dundee, 1513-1886 By Alexander Hastie Millar, Dundee (Scotland) indicates the First Glassite church of London formed in 1760. CUoD (talk) 01:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Barbican in this context refers to the towers that protected London during an earlier monarch. CUoD (talk) 23:33, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

(p. 38 of Cantor) In July 1760 Barnard reported to Sandeman that a small fellowship, numbering but nine souls, had begun to perform regular Christian practices, but they felt very isolated and in need of support from Scotland. This report is probably what the other authors are referring to when using the 1760 date.

From page 8 and 39 of Elmes's (1831) Topographical Dictionary of the British Metropolis The author describes Aldersgate St. as the north continuation of St. Martin's-le-grand, and reaches from the site of the ancient Alders-gate to the ancient barbican [(arabic) or watchtower as extension to Cripplegate]. Barbican St. runs east from 77 Aldersgate St. to cripplegate and continues to Finsbury square. Edward III granted the barbican's construction.

The location of the barbican is in the general vicinity of St. Martin's-le-grand. The report from Barnard to Sandeman in 1760 describing a gathering of Christians could easily be described as a meeting house. CUoD (talk) 03:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Referencing church attendance. CUoD (talk) 16:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Clarification of passage. CUoD (talk) 19:05, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

/* Churches */ Introducing photograph in text. CUoD (talk) 15:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There were a great many independent meeting-houses in London during the period in question (1759-1862). These are the most likely candidates.

The Bull and Mouth (Quaker Meeting House) (renamed Queen’s Hotel) was torn down in 1888 to make room for the General Post Office and its’ subsequent extension. The sanctuary associated with St. Martin-le-grand extended to both sides of the street. See pp. 78, 488-9 London, past and present: its history, associations, and traditions, Volume 2 (1891) By Henry Benjamin Wheatley, Peter Cunningham.

Hare Court, Aldersgate Street (Church or Independent meeting-house) connects Paul’s alley (near Barbican) to Redcross St. (Ibid., p.190)

Based upon this research, the Bull and Mouth (Queen’s Hotel) building no longer exists. It has been replaced by the General Post Office building found along St. Martin-Le-Grand St. I can find no material to locate the Hare Court Church, Aldersgate Street, which is another likely candidate for the London meeting-house. Its’ location would be in the vicinity of the Barbican and near the YMCA. I could find no trace of either Paul’s alley or Redcross Street in that vicinity of London today. It appears as though renovation left no trace of either building.

The Barnsbury Grove meeting-house (1862-1899) can be located on Faraday Close in the Islington borough of London (see photo in article). CUoD (talk) 16:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Glovers’ Hall Court, the 3rd possibility for the 1760 London Meeting-house, was located on the south side of Beech Street, in the Barbican. [Glover’s Company (Ibid., p. 119)] This section of London surrounding the Barbican has been substantially renovated into businesses and shops much like the vicinity of the Bull and Mouth. The former locations of the Bull and Mouth, Hare Court, and Glovers’ Hall Court are all located within a quarter mile of the Museum of London which separates St. Martin’s-Le-Grand from Aldersgate Street. CUoD (talk) 21:13, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Filling in the gaps for the establishment of Sandemanian meeting houses in Britain based upon Smith's research. CUoD (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Found better source for History of London meeting houses which clarifies the London picture. I added two sections for distinguishing between Glasite Churches in Scotland, and Sandemanian Churches in England and America. Having researched Sandeman's move to America in 1764, this portion of the article is an addition. CUoD (talk) 21:52, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Schism

→:Strengthening note to highlight connection between theological discussion (1757) and subsequent movements of Robert Sandeman and the establishment of churches in his wake. CUoD (talk) 14:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Critics of Sandemanianism

In response to Andrew Fuller’s first criticism found in this article, was not the two step process to excommunication a means by which Sandemanians distinguished Christians? (see Glasite practices). As for the latter statement, were not the Wednesday and Sunday gatherings a means by which this sect practiced fellowship? CUoD (talk) 15:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Though John “Rabbi” Duncan may have expressed his pithy comment ONCE, upon reflection, would he continue to make it in light of the following? Did not Sandeman follow John Glas’s lead in his break from the Church of Scotland in a move that clarified his belief in the separation of “spiritual matters” from a church tied to the state through the covenants? Did not the founding fathers refer to Glas's belief as the “Separation of Church and State” in the establishment of a democracy in America that has successfully survived 44 peaceful transitions of power uninterrupted? Was not the “primitive” Christianity that Glasites (in Scotland) and Sandemanians (elsewhere) practiced the same as that before the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church and Papal authority? CUoD (talk) 16:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)