Talk:Kharkiv National Academy of Urban Economy/Archive 1
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Kharkiv National Academy of Urban Economy. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
Its name in English
The introductory page in English on its website names it "O.M. Beketov National University of Urban Economy in Kharkiv (O.M. Beketov NUUEKh)".
Is there any good reason to retain "Municipal" in the title? (As it is, the en:WP article is somewhat confused: "Kharkiv National University of Urban Economy" for the info box and [minimal] article text; Kharkiv National University of Urban Economy" for the title.)
If a switch is made from "Municipal" to "Urban", then I'm still unsure about the best way to title the article. But I note that "National University of Urban Economy" (of course with no mention of Kharkiv) is not currently the title of any article. -- Hoary (talk) 03:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hoary, the explanation for municipal (and Kommunalwirtschaft in German) may be that Google translate has been used. (Or possibly Google translate is using Wikipedia.) I have posted a link at WP Ukraine. TSventon (talk) 09:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Urban is a better translation than Municipal.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ymblanter, I was hoping you would see this. TSventon (talk) 18:23, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Urban is a better translation than Municipal.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ymblanter; but I don't think that accuracy of translation matters all that much. Universities that locally are primarily referred to in one or more languages other than English (for this university, Ukrainian and Russian) typically feel obliged to additionally have a name in English. I don't think that en:WP normally departs from that name, even if it seems to be unidiomatic, a mistranslation, or awkward in some other way. (Of course the seemingly simple rule of "copy the institution's own name for itself" can be complicated by inconsistency or change in the university's own practice.) Also, if there's agreement that the X within "National Academy of X Economy" should be "Urban", what should we do about "O.M. Beketov" and "in Kharkiv"? Perhaps drop the former. As for the latter, either dropping it or leaving it as it is brings a result that seems odd to me; converting it to "Kharkiv" at the front is I think stylistically felicitous but could be criticized as plain wrong. (Incidentally, yes, I do realize that all of this is an utterly trivial matter in the context of the current war.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:11, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- I do not see a problem. The university does not have an established English name (WP:COMMONNAME), which means we have to translate the Ukrainian mane in English. There are similar situations on Wikipedia, see for example National University of Kharkiv or Moscow State University. There is no homogeneous approach, but I would go with Kharkiv National Academy of Urban Economy. Note that it is not uncommon in Ukraine, including even government organizations, to use Google translate to produce English translations of official documents or webpages/ We are not going to import Google translated text, and the best is to ignore such pages. Ymblanter (talk) 06:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Retitled, Ymblanter. I note with dismay/amusement that above I was both (A) so concerned about (i) "Municipal"/"Urban", (ii) whether/how/where to include "Kharkiv" and (iii) whether to add "Beketov", and (B) so sleepy/tired/senescent, that I managed not to notice (iv) "University"/"Academy". Well, it's "Academy" now (even though the Ukrainian name suggests "University"); and it's described as named after Beketov even though we don't name it after Beketov; and Beketov's initials are given as O.M. even though the article on him only provides A.M. (Ukrainian vs Russian, of course) ... and all in all the result is very dubious. However, what's more important than naming is informativeness, and oh dear, there too this little article currently fails. Fingers crossed that somebody will come along to improve the article. -- Hoary (talk) 09:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi! The English version of the University's website lists the following name, which I believe is its established English name: O.M. Beketov National University of Urban Economy in Kharkiv (or O.M. Beketov NUUEKh). It more or less follows how Ukrainians usually translate their academic institutions (e.g., Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv). For sure I like Kharkiv National University of Urban Economy better, but this seems to be the official one. Sidenote: it used to be an academy, but it's a university now. So I'd just change "Academy" to "University" and left it at that. (see National University of Kharkiv for even more confusion) ——Morfal (sup) 15:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Morfalcio, I think that you're right about "University". I'm happy to move again, if there's agreement to do so, and to clear up the resulting mess. But I really don't want to have to make a third move (or of course to oblige somebody else to make it), so first let's wait a week for comments. (TSventon, Ymblanter?) -- Hoary (talk) 10:01, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- As I said, I do not think there is a WP:COMMONNAME of this university. I think they have just hired a friend of the rector or of somebody else, and the friend has run a Google translate to produce this page. Ymblanter (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Morfalcio, I think that you're right about "University". I'm happy to move again, if there's agreement to do so, and to clear up the resulting mess. But I really don't want to have to make a third move (or of course to oblige somebody else to make it), so first let's wait a week for comments. (TSventon, Ymblanter?) -- Hoary (talk) 10:01, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi! The English version of the University's website lists the following name, which I believe is its established English name: O.M. Beketov National University of Urban Economy in Kharkiv (or O.M. Beketov NUUEKh). It more or less follows how Ukrainians usually translate their academic institutions (e.g., Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv). For sure I like Kharkiv National University of Urban Economy better, but this seems to be the official one. Sidenote: it used to be an academy, but it's a university now. So I'd just change "Academy" to "University" and left it at that. (see National University of Kharkiv for even more confusion) ——Morfal (sup) 15:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Retitled, Ymblanter. I note with dismay/amusement that above I was both (A) so concerned about (i) "Municipal"/"Urban", (ii) whether/how/where to include "Kharkiv" and (iii) whether to add "Beketov", and (B) so sleepy/tired/senescent, that I managed not to notice (iv) "University"/"Academy". Well, it's "Academy" now (even though the Ukrainian name suggests "University"); and it's described as named after Beketov even though we don't name it after Beketov; and Beketov's initials are given as O.M. even though the article on him only provides A.M. (Ukrainian vs Russian, of course) ... and all in all the result is very dubious. However, what's more important than naming is informativeness, and oh dear, there too this little article currently fails. Fingers crossed that somebody will come along to improve the article. -- Hoary (talk) 09:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- I do not see a problem. The university does not have an established English name (WP:COMMONNAME), which means we have to translate the Ukrainian mane in English. There are similar situations on Wikipedia, see for example National University of Kharkiv or Moscow State University. There is no homogeneous approach, but I would go with Kharkiv National Academy of Urban Economy. Note that it is not uncommon in Ukraine, including even government organizations, to use Google translate to produce English translations of official documents or webpages/ We are not going to import Google translated text, and the best is to ignore such pages. Ymblanter (talk) 06:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ymblanter; but I don't think that accuracy of translation matters all that much. Universities that locally are primarily referred to in one or more languages other than English (for this university, Ukrainian and Russian) typically feel obliged to additionally have a name in English. I don't think that en:WP normally departs from that name, even if it seems to be unidiomatic, a mistranslation, or awkward in some other way. (Of course the seemingly simple rule of "copy the institution's own name for itself" can be complicated by inconsistency or change in the university's own practice.) Also, if there's agreement that the X within "National Academy of X Economy" should be "Urban", what should we do about "O.M. Beketov" and "in Kharkiv"? Perhaps drop the former. As for the latter, either dropping it or leaving it as it is brings a result that seems odd to me; converting it to "Kharkiv" at the front is I think stylistically felicitous but could be criticized as plain wrong. (Incidentally, yes, I do realize that all of this is an utterly trivial matter in the context of the current war.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:11, 15 April 2022 (UTC)