Talk:Klaus Barbie/Archive 1

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Possible plagiarism without attribution

The first paragraph of this article is lifted almost verbatim from this page, without attribution: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Barbie.html

I'm no expert, but I suspect that this isn't Wikipedia policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dazzla (talkcontribs) 22:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Another Question

It makes reference to surgery, what surgery did he have? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.124.190 (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Who is in this photo ?

04/11/2007. Without being an expert in the subject, I don't think it is Klaus Barbie, even if the character in this photo looks like him. Actually, this character wears, not a SS uniform, but a Wehrmacht one without any SS or SD insignia (undoubtedly a NCO's uniform even if the shoulder straps are not visible : cap without cords and, above all, collar of the field blouse edged in tress running along the bottom and front). Admittedly Klaus Barbie could wear such a uniform during its short military service of three months in autumn 1938 with the 39e regiment of infantry (cf Tom Bower, Klaus Barbie, Butcher of Lyons, Corgi Books, London, 1985, page 28), but he would then not have been decorated with what seems to be (according to the ribbon worn on the uniform) the Ostmedaille or Medal for the Winter Campaign 1941-1942 in the East (Russian theatre of operations) instituted on May 26, 1942. If such a decoration was awarded to Klaus Barbie in the end of his stay in Russia (according to Tom Bower), why would he wear a Wehrmacht NCO's uniform without displaying his Iron Cross Second Class he got in 1941, whereas he was a SS officer since 1940 ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.193.152 (talk) 19:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible reference to unsourced statements

it's likely this book will provide references to the unsourced statement: Blowback: America's Recruitment of Nazi's and Its Effects on the Cold War, Christopher Simpson. From 1945 to 1955, he was protected and employed by British, and then American, intelligence agents, who used his counter-insurgency skills to suppress the leftist resistance to the American and British occupations in Germany, France, Greece, and Italy [citation needed]. I do not have the book so i am unable to provide the exact page number for a reference Roidroid 03:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article has massive paragraphs, as well as sentences like "Knowing the men in charge would rather die than give up the names of 300 young Jewish men to be killed, Barbie came up with a plot." and "The thing which Barbie did of the most repute with the Nazis was of the capture of Jean Moulin, the highest figure in the French Resistance ever captured, and it was for this, along with his other acts, that Barbie earned the First Class Iron Cross With Swords." I have a feeling this was straight out of a middle-schooler's biography on Klaus Barbie. Thorough rewriting necessary.

On a different note, and one much more tentative, I remain concerned about the NPOV of this article. Clearly Klaus Barbie was a "bad guy," but the articles on Adolph Hitler or Joseph Stalin or even Adolph Eichmann give fair treatments of subjects that in my opinion, were dregs of humanity on a moral level. Zenosparadox 02:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

i just deleted the straight out of a middle-schooler's biography on Klaus Barbie bit of the article, because i believe it cannot be saved. i propose to introduce a new section that speaks about his crimes, but does so in a neutral nonsensational way. --trueblood 08:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Question

I would like to know any information about Klaus Barbie specifically when he was held by the CIC in Oberammergau in 1945. I have a personal interest in this matter, my father served with the CIC at that time as a low ranking sargeant. He never talked about anything he experienced and I am curious about that part of history pertaining to the CIC in 1945-46.

Jack Was "Butcher of Lyon" his nick name or where did it originate from? And, is what was the British and US government using him for after the war? Or am i misreading this sentence? "From 1945 to 1955, he was protected and employed by British and then American intelligence agents because of his police skills."

You are reading the sentence correctly; he and other Nazis went to work for the British & Americans to 'deal with' the various leftist anti-fascist organizations in France, Germany, Italy, Greece, et al.

maybe this should be backed up with some reference. otherwise it should be deleted --trueblood 17:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a reference to him being employed by the CIC by or in 1947. I haven't seen a reference to his employment by Britain. Can this be tighened up?

ratline

In 1955, after the Americans and British were no longer in need of his services, Barbie, together with his wife and children, escaped to Bolivia with the help of Croatian Nazi priests in the Vatican "ratline".

More information and substantiation about this "ratline" would be appreciated. The same issue cropped up at Ante Pavelić, but evidence is scarce. --Joy [shallot] 13:38, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • I agree the reference to Croatian Nazi priests in the Vatican "ratline" is unencyclopedic and unsupportable - no replies to above so I have removed it. ~ Veledan | Talk | c. 16:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

hey guys, there is a wikipedia article about the Ratlines (history)ratline--trueblood 18:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

drug trafficker

anybody who has something to support the drug lord stuff?--trueblood 08:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

See the book The Big White Lie by DEA agent Michael Levine, who was stationed in Bolivia in the years leading up to the "Cocaine Coup" that Barbie and the CIA participated in. Levine details connections between the CIA and a powerful clique in Bolivia consisting of Barbie (and his death squad, "Los Novios de la Muerte"), the Bolivian generals (who led the coup and subsequent government), and the cocaine mafia family of Roberto Suarez (who, after the coup, went on to supply the primary DTOs in Colombia such as the Medellin and Cali cartels, with the protection of the military government). Levine also speculates that the leaders of the Argentine military junta were also involved, and that the cocaine coup itself was an operation that came under the umbrella of Operation Condor. 68.193.173.240 (talk) 07:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

charges?

Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't say what he was charged with. Only that he was convicted.

Nazis in the CIA

I'm re-adding a link to the article Nazis in the CIA under "see also". Please do not delete the link again without stating why, as it is very relevant to those wishing to find out more about this controversial yet historically relevant topic. Perhaps it could be added as a category if such a category existed but it doesn't, so the "see also" link shall suffice. If you wish the Nazis in the CIA article to be deleted for some reason, then that is a seperate matter worthy of it's own vote. If you wish to delete this reference again then please enter into discussion first Roidroid 06:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

i removed the link because i think that article is badly written, unreferenced and has a title that is unfitting for an encyclopedia.please don't make it a category. it reminds me of pigs in space. neither barbie nor gehlen were cia members. i am not interested in that article enough to invest time but i am interested in thsi article. if you want it so badly mentioned in here. please tidy it up and give it a different title. trueblood 18:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The current quality of that article is irellevant to it's inclusion as it is an important _topic_. The article will improve in time, but not if you steer people away from it by removing from this article all refereces to the topic. The title is not Nazi CIA agents which would indicate that Nazis were active CIA agents, which is not what is being said. The title is Nazis in the CIA, indicating that Nazis were in the employ of the CIA organisation. In the world of intelligence, double agents and "changing sides" are common. The Nazis in the CIA article is an intelligence stub, if you are both unfamilure & uninterested with the topic (as you have said) then i suggest you bregrudgingly leave it be, for the sake of those who unlike you ARE interested in it. Also, please indent your comments for ease of reading - Roidroid 05:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
hu, having seen a couple of james bond movies myself, i know all about the 'world of intelligence', with it's double agents, guns camouflaged as ball pens etc. so maybe i should start editing that article. i don't follow your logic. the article is a disgrace, it's title too flashy and a potentially controversial topic should have references. i would like to see it deleted. trueblood 12:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe the official name for the controversial operation in question was Operation Paperclip, and as the article mentions it is still rather hushhush. I hope the lead will be of use to you Roidroid (talk) 09:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Paperclip was the capture of scientists and seizure of advanced technology and putting them to work in America, all mostly relating to rocketry and jets. Unseemly but not horrible (the similar program with Japanese bio-warfare scientists on the other hand...) The article mentions he went to work for the CIC in 1947 with no elaboration on what he was doing and then he left for South America in 1951. My understanding is the Americans needed people to 'do something about' French and Italian trade unions and anti-fascists, and it was ex-SS and Corsicans they turned to. French Connection was re-established to fund this counter-insurgency. So someone should get the facts that I'm too lazy to dig up for citations and add this to that portion of his bio. LamontCranston (talk) 19:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Other questions

Sorry that I have not read everything here, but two questions: Was the SD really "a special branch of the SS", and was he really sent to serve in the Netherlands "soon" after 1935. Presumably 1940 at the earliest, which is not really "soon" after 1935. Jbhood 01:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

into a Catholic family

Xx236 12:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

that is normal biographical information, what is your problem with this?trueblood 18:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Bad?

If he is from bad Godesberg, where's good Godesberg?

Bad -> In Germany, the first part of the names of most spa towns, a cognate to the English "bath" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.57.66.11 (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistency

The story cites two dates for the year Barbie was put on trial, 1984 and 1987. Needs clarification.

I moved this part from the article to the discussion here. Riki 20:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing Popular Culture Section

One reference is not enough to justify an entire section on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TallNapoleon (talkcontribs) 21:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What did he DO?

Why aren't Barbie's crimes specified in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.2.169 (talk) 20:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

torture

What were Barbie's methods of torture?

torture

What were Barbie's methods of torture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.68.66.5 (talk) 12:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

and a dead bad alco there la! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.20.160 (talk) 23:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

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Yes, the SD was a special branch of the SS

I think that is general knowledge. Pardon me for not having a reference book to cite as proof. {71.22.47.232 (talk) 10:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)}