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*Talk:Kven/Archive 2: July 2006 – August 2006
- 1 The number of Kvens
- 2 Norwegian government notorious for downplaying the number of Kvens and the influence of the Kven society and culture in Norway
- 3 Changed introduction and added the term Kven section
- 4 Suggested reorganization
- 5 Kven vs. Sami
- 6 Swedish Kvens
- 7 Swedish Kvens and facts of distinct culture
- 8 Kvens, Kvenland and Kven language in the Schnitler report 1742-1745
- 9 Diki Wiki's united Kven text version must be brought back
The number of Kvens
It seems this page has used the highest number possible to find in sources on the internet. The page being linked might not be the best reference since it is a page created to promote Kvens. But it points out that there are no certain numbers on the Kven population. It also gives two numbers. One at 10 000-15 000 from a Parliamentary inquiry on national minorities in Norway made in 2000/2001. And the one used here on ca. 50-60 000 is based on a medical survey on heart disease made in Finnmark and Troms in 1987 where 25 % of the participants answered they had Finnish anscestry. I belive a Parliamentary inquiry on national minorities in Norway is more credible and that the number used in this article will unfortunately have to be reduced to 10-15 000. Inge 18:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- Number of kvens depends on what do you mean with being a kven. Whenever you decided that you may start the discussion of how many.--220.127.116.11 13:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- Please see the discussion in the next section for the definition and why the current numbers are used.Labongo 12:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Norwegian government notorious for downplaying the number of Kvens and the influence of the Kven society and culture in Norway
Be true to your own heritage, user Inge, and to correct history writing and revealing of information. Go ahead and change the number of Kvens back to the more accurate one, which properly was standing in the Wikipedia's Kven article.
It is a well known and a shameful fact that still as recently as during the time of the Second World War deportations of the Northern Norwegian Kvens to Southern Norway took place. Also, house arrests of some of the Kven leaders and other forceful tactics against the Kven population saw daylight then, as in so many other cases prior to that on the Norwegian soil.
As a Norwegian contributor on this talk page emphasized earlier, indeed practically all Norwegians are descendants of Kvens, some more some less. He point out e.g. that much of the Southern Norwegian population was killed by the Black Death, when in 1347 AD in one of the worst natural disasters in history, a great plague swept over Europe.
Also - famously -, even prior to that, the Norwegian royal family descended - and even currently continue descending - from the Kvens, and furthermore, Norway was founded by the Kvens. In light of all of that, it is hard to understand the Norwegian long lasting stupidity relating to this matter.
Finally, - only recently - the Kvens have become a matter of a special pride for the Norwegians. New laws continue being ratified now, to extend rights for the Kvens of Norway. Accordingly, in the spirit of this recent new wakening, four times the number of students in the Northern Norwegian University of Tromsa registered in to study the Kven language last semester compared to the number of those signing in to study Finnish.
Thus, the current Wikipedia's Kven article is right to point out for instance the following of the past shameful treatment of the Kvens in Norway:
"The Norwegian government attempted to integrate the Kvens to the Norwegian main stream society by custom made policies and laws from the 1860s on. The use of the Kven language became forbidden and punishable in schools and government offices. Land purchace became prohibited for those who did not acquire Norwegian family names. Eventually, the sales of land for non-speakers of the Norwegian language became prohibited.
On national level, the Kvens even became to be considered a national "security risk" ("Finske fare"). Accordingly, the Norwegian Defense Ministry in 1870 demanded for all Kven names ("foreign names") to be removed from maps. Kven town and geographical place names were then replaced by Norwegian ones."
To state that only 50'000-60'000 Norwegians are so called Kven-Norwegians - or that only that number of Norwegians consider themselves to be Kvens - is a serious underestimation and a definite distortion of truth. No reliable statistics of the matter is currently available. However, according to the official 2005 Norwegian census, 25 000+ Norwegians speak the Kven language. A multiple number of Norwegian Kvens are known not to speak the Kven language. Yet, - nevertheless - they too are Kvens, regardless whether or not they speak the Kven language, officially known as Kainu.
ObrigadoToYou 16:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sigh.Again that sort of a rant, from a sockpuppet. Sigh.
- I cannot understand why it is so difficult to the sockpuppeteer to comprehend that those Norwegians do not want to be Kvens. Even if they genetically were, there is a clear pattern observed in sociological studies that people from mixed ancestry often are more nationalistic and define themselves solely as to belong to one ethnicity, and refuse to recognize their other roots. Louis XIV was one of the most nationalistic French kings, being however descended mostly from Italians, Spaniards, Iberojews, Moors, and Habsburg-Jagiellons. The French dose of blood he ethnically and genetically had, was apparently minuscule. We should not need to battle over whether a bunch of people who regard themselves Norwegians, are or are not in fact descendants of Kvens. Suedois 17:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually the number in the 2005 Norwegian census of Kven speakers is 2000-8000 (http://www.coe.int/T/E/Legal_Affairs/Local_and_regional_Democracy/Regional_or_Minority_languages/2_Monitoring/2.2_States_Reports/Norway_report3.pdf). The number 25 000+ is for Sami speakers. As for the number of Kvens to be used, I think we should use the official estimate, but mention that there are other estimates.--Labongo 21:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
My edit to the Kven article was based solely on the credibility of the numbers used, not a political entry. As to the credibility of numbers from the Norwegian government I would like to point out that both the numbers in question are from the Norwegian government, but as I point out above one is from a survey actually trying to find out the number of Kvens in Norway and the other was a small local survey regarding heart disease. Inge 15:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have added a demography section. Unfortunantly, I had to use two second hand sources. The first giving the percentage of Kvens in Finnamrk and Troms in the 19th century, the second the actual number for the 20th century. I also write that it is difficult to estimate the number of Kvens since there is no official definition, with references to the government report and the ancestor estimation. I use http://odin.dep.no/kkd/norsk/dok/andre_dok/rapporter/043041-220005/dok-bn.htm as my primary reference.--Labongo 21:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I changed the upper bound in the infobox. The infobox should reflect that there are no good estimates, and no official definition. Also, our definition of Kvens is "decadents of Finnish speaking people", and the number of people should reflect this fact.--Labongo 02:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Changed introduction and added the term Kven section
I have rewritten the introduction since I found it to be confusing due to the parts about the Kven language and the many Finnish migrations. I think a reference to the Kven language is enough in the introduction, and I find non-Kven Finnish immigrations irrelevant. I have also added a section about the term Kven.
I don't have access to scholarly articles or history books about Kvens, but I have used information from the webpages from the Vadsø Kven museum, the Norwegian Kven organization, and an article written by Prof. Einar Niemi.
--Labongo 04:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- Please return the link to the article Kvens of the past. That link is essential, and it was harmful to remove it. Sorry, Tildes not working, so no signing from a anonymous user.
- Sorry about removing the link to the Kvens of the past article. I only wanted to remove the "possibly their ancestors" part, but deleted the entire paragraph. --Labongo 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- Another webpage (in English) about the Kvens, with a Kven literature list: http://www.ub.uit.no/arkiv/maanedens/1999/199906e.htm --Labongo 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- About the alternate spellings. Are/have all of these been used about the contemporary Kvens? I know Kvæn has been used in Norway, but I don't know about the english and finnish ones.--Labongo 20:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The page is currently protected, so I have not made any changes (great if someone else is cleaning up the article). However, I would suggest the following reorganization/ rewrite of the paper: (i) remove the Contemporary Kvens section, since the entire article is about them, (ii) remove all references to the controversial Kvenland, (iii) shorten and focus the section about migrations, (iv) add a section about the Norwegian assimilation policy, including the difference in the 1980s with regards to Samis and Kvens, (v) add a section about the cultural awakening of the Kvens including the debates in 1990s about who is Kven and whether Kainu is a dialect or language, (vi) add relevant links to Kven organizations etc., and (vii) remove the irrelevant references.--Labongo 02:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Since there have been many controversial theories, misquotations and errors in this article, I decided to remove all references and further readings. Only references about contemporary Kvens should be added.--Labongo 02:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- I removed all mentions of Kainu as an official name for the Kven language. This is not true. The Norwegian Kven Organization uses kvenske språket (the Kven language). The same does all Norwegian parliament reports. Only wikipedia seems to use Kainu.--Labongo 02:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Tromsö univeristy uses Kainuun kieli, as the term in Kven language,. Kven in Norwegian.--18.104.22.168 18:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
- I added more details to the Assimilation Policy section. My source has been http://www.antirasistisk-senter.no/infobanken/dokumenter/samora/5-01/anstrengtforhold.html--Labongo 02:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- You are writing a bunch of garbage ! Where is your reliable source about the kvens paying taxes to the Norvegians in the Middle Ages ? In fact, the Norwegians famously eventully lost the taxation war of the Samis to the Kvens, as the earlier Kven text was reflecting accurately ! Set the old text back please, the present-day and the past Kvens undevided - Wikipedians against vandalism 15:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- To me the article looks now very accurate and well-referenced. Lappland was taxed by many parties during Middle Ages and later, and exact borders were only drawn in the 19th century ("Kvens" had very little part in that game, though). Demand to have past and present kvens in the same article is not a good idea, since the content is very different and usage of "kven" has clearly changed during the 1000 years that separates these two items. --Drieakko 19:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- The source is: Niemi, E. (1994), Kvenene og staten – et historisk riss. In: Torekoven Strøm (ed.), Report from the seminar ”Kvenene – en glemt minoritet?” 14.11.94 at the University of Tromsø/ Tromsø Museum. Kvens in the context of this article are Finnish speaking immigrants in Northern Norway. The Danish/Norwegian tax records shows that there were a few Finnish speaking people in Northern Norway in the 16th century.--Labongo 20:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I thought I had forgot to add the reference to the section being critizised. But it turns out that the reference above was already in place.--Labongo 21:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Kven vs. Sami
I added the section ‘’Kvens vs. Sami’’. My intention is to inform the readers about current issues in Kven politics. However, the information is based on what I remember reading in various Kven and Sami newspapers, and information I have found on the Kven Organization webpage. In other words, I have no references. Therefore I am not sure whether the section meets the standards of Wikipedia, and I would appreciate comments on whether to keep the section or not, and/or suggestions for improvement.--Labongo 02:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It turns out that there is also a group in Sweden that calls themselves Kvens. It seems that they have only used the term for a few years, and that the motivation is political. I think this article should be about the Norwegian minority, but have added ‘‘disclaimer’’ section about the Swedish Kvens.--Labongo 00:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- There may also be a group in Finland using the Kven term for the same reasons.--Labongo 00:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- About the Kvens in Finland. The Sweden 'Kvens' call them lappalaiset (Lapp is also used about Sami in Finnish), while they call themselves lantalaiset. In addition, the term kveeni is used in Finnish. So I think I will ignore this rather confusing part about the term Kven.--Labongo 01:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Kveeni" in Finnish refers to Kvens in Norway. I have never heard or seen it used in Finland for any other purpose about the present-day groups of people. --Drieakko 05:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think that the article should state that "there is no evidence that Kvenland existed in northern Sweden" since the current phrase "are not descendants of the medieval Kvens" is probably not correct since Kvens mentioned in early documents meant probably just any Finns. Swedish Kvens, if descending from later Finnish immigrants, were thus descendants of medieval Kvens like all Finns. --Drieakko 13:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Swedish Kvens and facts of distinct culture
I Quote: However, this group has no distinct culture, has not been known as an ethnical group in recent history, and there is little evidence that they are the descendants of the medieval Kvens." Well, there are only two groups in Sweden who are rein deer herders and members of Saami villages: The Saami and the Tornedalians (or Kvens as some of them call themselves), plus Swedish-speaking Kainulaisia in Kainus (very important fact). And the article writes "no disctinct culture". Please, try to follow facts. The rein deer herding is a very old part of the Tornedalian culture.--22.214.171.124 11:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't understand your arguments. Are you claiming that Kvens, Tornedalians, Samis(?) and Kainulaisia are all Kvens? Also, are you claiming that reindeer herding is an important part of the Tornedalian culture, and that Tornedalian reindeer herding differs from Sami reindeer herding? The main point of the section is that there are people outside Norway who claim to be Kvens for political reasons. If you have any evidence that the claims in this section (or the provided reference) are incorrect, then please provide links. Labongo 23:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I claim tha the lantalaiset, kvens or tornedalians, or whatever the non-saami people in the Finnish-speaking region call themselves have a distinct culture, e.g. rein deer herding. I do not care what they call themselves, but they have a disctinct culture. The state has for more than one century tried to abolish this right, so it differes from teh Saami rein deer herders. You lack facts. Is that not a distinct culture. Do they have rein deer herders, non-saami, in Västerbotten. Please give me one modern ethnic term which is not political, e.g. meänkieli is a political term. Just invented 15 years ago. It is not forbidden to invent terms. --126.96.36.199 11:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- From the reference for that section "Thomas Wallerström är docent i Nordskandinavisk historisk arkeologi [...] Enligt honom anses inte kvänerna ha en kultur som är speciellt utmärkande. Levnadssättet bland folket i Tornedalen skiljer sig inte märkbart åt från det hos folk i andra älvdalar i norra Sverige, vilket talar emot kvänernas anspråk på att vara en etnisk grupp och ett eget ursprungsfolk. [...] Det är en väldigt sen etnisk mobilisering som försiggår [...]". If you know of any articles that contradicts these claims, please provide links since I would be interested in reading these.Labongo 04:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, just make a phone call to the chair of any Saami village and ask them how many non-saami rein deer owners htere are in the Saami village of Torne valley. Wallerström rejects very easily verifiable facts. County Norrbotten has lots about non-saami rein deer herders,how many they are, rules, nr of rein deers etc www.bd.se. Look at wikipedia swedish tornedalingar and koncessionsrenskötsel. From a Stockholm perspective rein deer herding is one example of distinct culture. As far as I know Wallerström and no Stockholm citizen own rein deers. No one in, e.g., Great Britain owns rein deers. However, a few persons in China and Siberia and northern Scaninavia do that. In my opinion it is a good criteria of a ´distinct culture. Don't you agree?--188.8.131.52 13:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the wrong wwww.The correct one is http://www.bd.lst.se/rennaring/Startpage.aspx Hence, the kvens in Sweden are also rein deer herders, as well as my father was, and other non-sami Tornedalians.
Kvens, Kvenland and Kven language in the Schnitler report 1742-1745
The Kvens of northern Norway were to seom extend rein der herders as the Lapps. I hope some of you can read Swedish. Here are the most important quotes from teh report
Detta är vad man skriver om kväner, det kvänska språket och Kvänland i Schnitlers rapport från 1745. Termerna kvänska, kväner och Kvänland används av majoren. Kainuu och kainulaiset tycks dock itne förekomma. Quotes:
De saakaldede Qvaener ere fra Sverrigs Torne-Lapland og Storfinland hid overkomne Svenske Bönder...Som de i Sprog og Saeder holde sig meget till de Norske Söe-Finner, saa kan de fölgeligen til disse regnes, skriver major Schnitler 1745.
Vidare: Qvaenland kaldes her den District i Sverrig, 2,25 Miil Östen, og 2,25 Miile Vesten for Torne stad, strekkende sig op efter Torne- og andra Elve i Nordnordvest en 40 Miile ad de Norske Grenser.
Därav en 30 mil bebos av bönder...; de övriga 10 mil o- dyrkelig Land innehavs av Lappar, som man här i Landet kallar de Svenske Östlapper; Förberörte Svenske Bönder och Bruksfolk bo längs efter Älvarna, varav i detta Qvänland är mångfaldiga och stora."
1742-1745 beskriver Peter Schnitler landet och dess språk: "Af dette Qvaenland skal en 30 Miile langs med Elvene af Bönder och Berg Verks folk, som tala det Öst-Finnlandske Sprog, vara beboede. --- Det StorFinlandske Sprog som nord i Norge og kaldes det Karelske, eller det Qväenske differerer fra det Lappiske at den ene Nation ei forstaar den anden; Dialecten selv i StorFinland er saa adskillig, at de Folk inderst, eller Österst i StorFinland neppe forstaar dem ved Tronestaad."
Det tycks som om Schnitler likställer språket i Nordnorge och Tornedalen som en form av östfinska eller karelska, och som avviker så kraftigt från finskan i Finland att t o m östfinnar har svårt att förstå den talade finskan i Torneå. Denna språkvarietet betecknar han som kvänska. Termen Karelen påstås dock av rapportens redaktörer beteckna Finland.
Schnitler använder ett flertal benämningar på folkgrupperna som levde i Nordnorge, bl a markerar han skillnad mellan kväner, finnar och lappar och nämner dem explicit som tre olika grupper, men även t ex "lapfinner", "Field-Finner" och "Söe-Finner" omnämns.
”Qvaenland, (som er et Landskab strekkende sig 8 Miile fra Tornestad i Nord, hvoraf Folk udskrives till soldatre)… (BD II:348)
Qvaenland, hvorfra de Svenske Qvaenere her iomkring i de Norske Fiorde ere, begynder 2,25 Miil Östen for, og 2,25 Miil Vesten for Tornestad, strekkende sig alt till de Norske Grendser en 40. Miile vidt---Boder og Brugsfolk boe langs efter Elvene, hvoraf detta Qvaenland ere mangfoldige og store” (BD II:360)
Qvaener Market 4 Uger efter Juel, ligesom i Löngensfjord, da de Svenske Torne-Stadz Borgere Kieredster nedkomme (BD II:368)
"Qvaener, eller Torne-Borgere” (BD II:364)--184.108.40.206 12:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am not sure whether you think these quotes have new content that should be added to the article, or if they prove that something in the existing text is wrong. But, I don't think I have seen this work referred in the works I have used as references. I will leave it to the (few) Kven scholars to interpret primary sources, and use their results in the article. However, my understanding of the quotes is:
- -The Qvaener are from Torne-Lapland in Sweden and Greater-Finland…Their language and customs are similar to the sea-Samis, so they can be considered as sea-Samis (or is it the other way around).
- -Qvenland is a 40 mile region along rivers in the Torne valley, which is inhabited by Samis and Swedes.
- -The Kven language differs from the Sami language(s), and the dialects in the eastern part of greater Finland differs significantly from the dialects spoken in Tornio.Labongo 13:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, translation fairly okay for soem quotes. Sea-Saami and qvens ar emore or less one and the same people. The inhabitans of Torne valley were Finns, Lapps, Kvens na dseemingly other subgroups.
Labongo writes: "But, I don't think I have seen this work referred in the works I have used as references" Labongo reveals his ignorance on the subject. Schnitler's report is mentioned in many works written by scholars in the field, e.g Vahtola from Oulu, Tornionlaakson historia, as well as in many other articles written by scholars. The report is written 1942-1745, more than 250 years ago. And Labongo has not seen that reference.Amazing and revealing!--220.127.116.11 08:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- According to the source, the Danish person visiting Lappland around the mid-18th century says that "Kvenland" is a track 2.25 miles east of Tornio and 2.25 miles west of the city and as such proceeds along the Tornio river and "other rivers", probably its tributaries. --Drieakko 14:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Kvenland in mid 18th century was in its south parts almost precisely the same region where Tornedalen Finnish was spoken on both siodes of todays border rivers. This is the only precise definition of the location of Kvenland ever written and should be properly discussed in the article of Kvens.
More about the Kvens and their history during 17th century The Sea-Saami/kvens had a few tame rein deers, and had summer and winter camps. Sometimes even autumn camps. Sea-Saamis have been there longer time than the Kvens, but nevertheless their language and traditions are more or less the same. So, continuous migration to Northern Norway for a long time, is one reasonable interpretation, otherwise we may not explain why the Sea-Saami and the Kvens had same language and traditions. Schnitler never says from where the Sea-Saami come from, as far as I have read and undertood the 3 volumes, they, the Sea-Saami, have been there for a longer time.
Finner, enten ved Söe-Siden, eller til Fieldz, hvortil kan regnes de saa kaldede Qvaenere, eller Svenske Bönder fra Kimi- og Torne- Lapland, item Storfinland
Söe-Finner …de holde nogle Köer, Faar og endel tamme Reen, men bruge ingen Ager-Dyrkning….en Söe-Finn har nu gemenlig sin Sommer- og Vinterbye, som ha i eet Aar omskifter. Sin Sommer-Bye har han gerne ude i Fiorden for Fiskeriets Skyld, sin Vinter-Bye inde ved de naermeste Fielde, for Bierke-Skovens, og for Mosens Skyld, at haeve Braendsel, og foder till Creaturene; Nogle have Höste-Bye inde i Fiod-Bottene, for Graesets Skyld til Qvaeget (Bd III:56)
Sea-Saami had a few cows, sheep, and tame rein deers, but had no agriculture.
They lived in huts of torf, Torv-Gammer med Bierke-Staenger indentil fastgiordte.
Schnitler använder ett flertal benämningar på folkgrupperna som levde i Nordnorge, bl a markerar han skillnad mellan kväner, finnar och lappar och nämner dem explicit som tre olika grupper, men även t ex "lapfinner", "Field-Finner" och "Söe-Finner" omnämns.
Schnitler uses several labels of the groups in Northern Norway: Kvens, Finns, Lapps, as three distinct groups, as well as Lappfinns, Mountain-Finns and Sea-Finns. Thes quotations shoulkd be properly mentioned and discussed. Very important ones for the modenr discussion of Kvens. --18.104.22.168 19:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- If Sea-Sami and Kven are the same people, then Kvens and the Sami are the same. I have seen this theory before, but not in any of the articles I used as reference. But I think it highlights the problem with the origin of Kvens: nonody knows their ethnicity. Kvens may very well be a mix of Finns, Samis, Norwegians and Swedes (with people from the last three groups assimilated into the Finnish culture at some point in time).Labongo 06:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Please, I do not talk about theories. Schnitler distinguishes Lapps in the mountains and the Söe-Finne. I refer a report, which should be properly referred in the article. No theories, just refer the seemingly very reliable report by a Danish high-ranking officer.--22.214.171.124 07:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am still not sure exactly what it is in the report that you think should be added to the article. As I said earlier, modern scholars do not seem to think that Sea-Samis and Kvens are the same people (please check the articles I ahve cited). Also, today Sea-Samis and Mountain-Samis are both considered to belong to the same ethnical group. Since I don't have the experitse to analyse old historical documents, I only use content from articles written by people who have this experise. If you want content added you should either be clear about what you want added, cite articles writen by shcolars, or add the content with citations yourself. Labongo 10:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Schnitler's report is a very detailed and specific report. He visited the region, travelled around very much, talked with lots of people and learnt the conditions. Therefore he is the only very good source who has first hand knowledge of the situation 1742-54, i.e when the Kvens from Torne valley arrived and who lived there already. His report should be given lots of space and his views should be presented as another way os seeing in to the Kven matter. Most scholars have, however, not read him, most likely due to that Finnish scholars have problems to read his language. Though a few have read some. Vahtola,e.g., mentions that it is a very interesting and important report. Scholars are trying to conclude frome fragmentaric evidence. Schnitler has something to add to the discussion of ethnicites in the Northern Norway and Sweden. He has the only very precise definition of where Kvenland was located in 1745. Just to mention one important fact. No one else has this first hand and precise information about Kvens and Kvenland. He is not in the category of sagas and old fragmentaric stories. And you beleive it is of minor significance. If you say so, then you are biased to defend a certain position. Describe all positions available. That is simple way to do science of history.--126.96.36.199 11:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Please note that during the mid-18th century Tornio Valley was not a legendary land far away at the edge of the world, but an ordinary part of the well-organized kingdom of Sweden, and had been for several hundreds of years. Taxes were paid, maps had been drawn and bureaucracy running. The report itself is important as it at least confirms the idea that "Kven" was locally used in Lappland still in the 18th century, at least by some of the people that Schnitler had been in touch with. Since most of the Kvens in today's Norway had come from the Tornio Valley (since Kven language is closely related to the Tornio Valley dialects), it is natural that in order to have the name "Kven" preserved in northern Norway, it must have earlier been used of the Tornio Valley people as well. And before that about the people that had moved to the Tornio Valley. --Drieakko 12:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Good with theories, Drieakko. But I prefer facts. Interpretation can be done after presentation of facts. But all facts must be presented. Especially the only detailed report from Northern Norway about Kvens. --188.8.131.52 14:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely so! The reference given by the Danish person is from the era when the first large Kven migration from Torney Valley was going on to Norway (about 1720 - 1820). I think the account should be handled as a part of the "Kven migrations" section, as it describes the area from which most of the migration was originated and how (at least some of the) people were calling it that time. This (more theories!) possibly explains the sudden reappearance of "Kvenland" in the 1740s: it was a dialectal name given by local Norwegians to the area from which Kvens had started to immigrate to Norway during their lifetime. --Drieakko 16:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you are of the same opinion. Stick to that and don't talk rethorics!--184.108.40.206 17:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Diki Wiki's united Kven text version must be brought back
To the user Drieakko (also others):
What needs to be done is the following: The two Kven texts must be united, as they were before. That is why the earlier version was brought back already several times. So, when ever anyone sees the last Diki Wiki version been tampered with - and particularly if it is without proven and valid sources -, please go ahead and bring back the united and last Diki Wiki version (see history), which had reached a concensus among many writers contributing to this topic in Wikipedia.
As is known, innocent Wikipedia users have been blocked from contributing to this topic in Wikipedia, without valid reasons. When this ill-fated blocking was done, this sort of wrongful action - a splitting of the Kven article - was made possible and was manipulated to Wikipedia by a user, Leifern, who admitted to not knowing anything about the Kvens. As the Norwegian website does - the site which you call "official" above -, the Kvens and their history must be dealt with in one place, that is to say one article. The same has been done with numerous other groups in Wikipedia.
We are now reverting the text back to the Diki Wiki article which had reached a concensus recently. All changes made to it must be well backed up by known historians and/or other sources, like the user Mikkalai and others clearly requested a while back. Thank you.
The heading for this article must be changed back to be simply Kven. We are talking about one group of people. In this article the roots and the history of this group are dealt with in the light of science and information gathered by known historians and other specialists.
Steve Wondering 18:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I do completely agree that the article Kvens should be in one and the same place. Swedes, Finns, Tornedalians, Saami, etc have all one article. Why should we discriminate this group? There is not reason what so ever for this discrimination. Then the shortcomings and mythology of the "Kvens of the past" will be obvious. --220.127.116.11 19:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- There is no reason to unite the article about ancient references to Kvenland with the articles about Kvens and Kven language. It would just become overly long and pointless. Kvenland is an ancient name appearing in a few sources until mid-13th century. Kvens are a minority in northern Norway. Kven language is the language spoken by them. A new article could be Kven Sea, though it is only mentioned once, but the problems around the name generate a plenty of writing. Other related articles are Kings of Kvenland, Origin of the name Kven, Terra Feminarum and even Sitones. --Drieakko 19:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- At least Finland has quite a number of articles here from different angles and so the others as well. I don't understand why Kvens should be packed into single slump of superficial information without properly handling any part of it. Is Wikipedia running out of disk space? --Drieakko 19:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- I also believe that there is no reason to unite these articles, since there is not widely agreed upon connection between the ancient Kvenland and the minority in Norway. I am also getting tired of the many sockpuppets reverting the Kven articles back to a version everybody else is disatisfied with, posting long rants on the discussion pages, and continous attacks on earlier editors of these articles (such as Leifern). Finally, User:Digi_Wiki is a sock puppet of the infamous puppet master Art Dominique, and the posts "signed" by Steve Wondering are from an anonymous user.Labongo 06:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone check if Drieakko and Labongo are using the same IP-number, and hence are one and the same person. That kind of misusing signatures happens frequently. Perhaps I am wrong, but it should be mentioned.--18.104.22.168 07:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Everybody else does not include me and many others: "many sockpuppets reverting the Kven articles back to a version everybody else is disatisfied with...". I have not seen the earlier versions, but the article written by Drieakko of ancient Kvenland rejects all reserach by some 20 scholars, without discussion.--22.214.171.124 07:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that the older versions had lot's of structural shortcomings, and all presentations were not accurate.
If Kvenland has its own article, then it should include all from the very beginning to the year 2006. Ancient Kvenland and Kvenland of 1742 should be in the same article and then mythology will be revealed by the reader. There is no reason to discuss one term in several articles.--126.96.36.199 07:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
A compromise is that Drieakko gets his own category: Modern mythology of Kvenland, which as such is of importance for history. If you look at Finland, Swedne, NBorway, Finns, Norwegians etc you have them all in one article, as far as I know.--188.8.131.52 07:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Go ahead and verify that I and Drieakko are not the same person.
- Please compare the quality of the current Kvenland article with the Digi Wiki version.
- (no comments)
- See my comment above
- Labongo 07:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"Kvenland", the ancient one, has a very small content. Modern Kvenland from 14th century up until now has almost nothing. Normally modenr means something after 1800 or something like that. But for Kvenladn it means 14th century. "Finland" contains enormous amount of information. Nevertheless Drieakko/Labongo wants to keep two articles. Labongo is hence also in favour of the Modern mythology theory of Kvenland. Well, discussions with Labongo/Drieakko is useless. They "both" use the same way of reasoning.--184.108.40.206 07:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Drieakko and Labongo are different persons though I highly respect Labongo's common sense.
- The current article about Kvenland goes through the known ancient sources about it and presents plenty of different possibilities how they can be interpreted. Tell me if something is missing. I have sadly noticed that closer examination of the sources is not welcome to all.
- Kvenland mentioned by the mid-18th century Danish person could be listed in the Kvenland article if something was done to its other heading "Kvens of the past". The article is meant to handle highly disputed old sources that all mention Kvenland and end around 1250 CE, by the time when Swedes took over Finland. The Danish person gave his account about 500 years after the previous known Kvenland reference. Not a single reference to Kvenland in between, though a few scattered Kven references during the 16th and 17th centuries. No other mid-18th century sources (which are plentiful) use name Kvenland for anything. --Drieakko 08:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Take a close examination of Schnitlers report. Labongo had never read about him. Nevertheless he is confident in his opinions about the Kvens. Schnitlers report can be borrowed in any major library. Source: Peter Schnitler. GRENSEEKSAMINASJONSPROTOKOLLER 1742-1745. Band I-III. Sammanställt av J. Qvigstad, K. B. Wiklund, Lars Ivar Hansen och Tom Schmidt. First volume was published 1929.--220.127.116.11 08:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)