Talk:Manuel Palaiologos/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: HaEr48 (talk · contribs) 04:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Will review this. HaEr48 (talk) 04:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Generally well written, referenced, neutral. Covers main aspects of his life, it's on the brief side but seems appropriate given the lack of information available. Prose is clear, and generally comply with the MoS. No copyvio, OR, or neutrality issue detected. Some feedback:

Thank you for reviewing! On its brevity; yeah, I used everything I could find here. It is a shame that so little is known of Manuel since he is a quite interesting figure. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• "After the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 and the subsequent Ottoman invasion of the Morea in 1460, Thomas …": Suggest ordering the clauses: "Thomas fled to Corfu … after the fall of …" to make it clearer from the beginning that the subject of this sentence is Manuel's father. Or even, reword to "Thomas took Manuel and the rest of his family to Corfu after …" to make the sentence more focused on Manuel, and probably shorter

Went with the second suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• After Thomas's death: year?

Added year. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Suggest expanding the lead with the names of monarchs he offered services to.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Suggest mentioning the reason or possible motives he decided to go Constantinople in the lead. The "surprised the establishment in Rome" part could probably be removed if it becomes too long.

Added possible reasons and motives to lede. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Suggest adding a sentence about his two children in the lead. Also suggest briefly describing his life in Constantinople

Mentioned him possibly serving in the navy, his two sons and his cool nickname. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• led to the Sultan invading the Morea: led the Sultan to invade the Morea?

Changed to "led the Sultan to invade the Morea". Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thomas then left the rest of the family to go to Rome: suggest more concise "Thomas then left his family" if the only one that's not being left is Thomas

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thomas, Catherine and their children escaped to Corfu: what was the status of Corfu at the time? Was it Thomas' independent domain?

Thomas had no jurisdiction over anything anymore and the people of Corfu actually did not particularly want him there out of fear for Ottoman attacks. Added that the island was under Venetian rule. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• who had also fled the Byzantine Empire many years ago: better to add the year (or the decade, if the exact year is not available)

Added year. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• "was also the mastermind behind Zoe's marriage to Duke Ivan III of Moscow, which was arranged in June of 1472": suggest "also arranged Zoe's marriage to Duke Ivan III of Moscow on June 1472". Seems excessive to describe arranging someone's marriage as "masterminding"

Yeah, went with your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• effectively reducing a pension of 500 to one of 150: This is not a fair comparison, right? The 500 was for Thomas and the two brothers, while the 150 was only for Manuel

The 500 were for just Thomas and his entourage; Andreas and Manuel did not arrive in Rome until after Thomas was already dead (though we of course don't know what Thomas did with the money, if he sent some to his family still in Corfu or what not). Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Is it possible to provide a comparison of the value of ducats, écus, and aspers? Making enough money seems a very important concern in this biography, but we need some idea how much improvement the 100 écus would make over the 150 ducats, or how much better the Sultan's 100 aspers were over the pope's 150 ducats.

It is very difficult to track down late medieval conversion rates; écus and ducats appear to have been worth pretty much the same (1, 2), but the value of all three different coins appear to have varied not only from time to time, but also from town to town (3). Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• Runciman 1969, p. 183 also mentions that he married in Constantinople and has a wife (so does Cawley, but it seems to cite Runciman). Is she the same as one of the concubines?

I believe the wife idea and the concubine idea, in regards to the children's parentage, are different ideas. I've added Runciman's idea too. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• The same source also mentions that Andreas was known as Mehmet Pasha and became court official, I think it's a good addition to "The further life of … Andreas .. is uncertain"?

Fixed up the grammar and added Runciman's stuff. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• Neither of Manuel's two sons are believed to have had children of their own: Are these the last of the imperial house? If yes, suggest mentioning.

There are various claims to imperial descent by later people; for instance Ferdinand Paleologus in Barbados in the 1600s, but the completely verified and 100 % certain imperial line of descent ends with Manuel's sons, yes. If the later pretenders are disregarded on account of a lack of evidence, the House of Palaiologos died with Manuel's older son at some point after 1519. I've added a citation and tried to express this in a good way. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• No image in the article. If there is no image of the subject, suggest adding images of Bessarion or Mehmed II with relevant caption in the relevant part of the article body to improve aesthetics. But up to you, only a suggestion.

Yeah, there are no images of Manuel that I know of, though there is the possibility that one might turn up in old Ottoman or Vatican stuff some day. I'm having difficulty getting Bessarion and Mehmed pics to fit right with the text and the references and I also worry that readers could, despite the captions, confuse them for images of Manuel since we have nothing for the man himself. If you feel they are necessary I can add them either way. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

In general, it's a nice work, and feel free to discuss any of the points above if you disagree. HaEr48 (talk) 17:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick response. Passing the nomination, per review and actioned feedback above. HaEr48 (talk) 03:05, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you again for the review :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:33, 16 June 2020 (UTC)