Talk:Meša Selimović/Archives/2012/November

Ethnicity and understanding of "nacionalnost" in former Yugoslavia

I hoped this is would be a big problem, but still...

In our countries we undernsatnd the nacionalnost as large majority of English people understands ethnicity. When a Muslim says "I'm a Serb by nationality", believe me, he doesn't mean he has a Serbian citizenship. Selimović is known for his declaring as Serb, similiar as Andrić. Another problem is that there were no Bosniaks when Selimović was born, it is 99% possibility that his parents where either, Serbs or Croats. It would be an easy explanation if Selimović was someone like Mehmed Spaho who really believed that Bosnian Muslims are a separate group with special intrests, but Selimović wasn't like Spaho. He was a Serb, according to his own words. You are making problem where we shouldn't have one. I hope we resolve this on talk page. --Wüstenfuchs 23:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Nothing you're saying makes sense -- Bosniaks have been in existence just as long as Serbs and Croats have (over a thousand years; dating back to the 10th century). Paganism turned into Christianity/Catholicism, then into Islam under Ottoman rule. The quote, ""I come from a Muslim family in Bosnia, and I am a Serb by NATIONALITY," is translated. You can change your nationality, but not your ethnicity. He was ethnically a Bosniak. "I come from a MUSLIM family in BOSNIA..." -- one could argue that he was stating that he was a BOSNIAN MUSLIM... am I wrong? --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 23:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you notice the problem here? You claim that nationality is citizenship. Now, consider, was he living in Serbia or Yugoslavia at the time? I'll answer you - he lived in Yugoslavia. According to your theory, he can only be Yugoslav by nationality. Therfore, it is clear that he was rather speaking about ethnicity, because he was mistranslated. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, nacionalnost is ethnicity. Even in English language the term "nationality" can be understood as ethnicity as well. Do you get my point? And if you add all those sources where he declares himself a Serb, the situation is clear enough - Selimović was a Serb. Considering the ethnicity, just a question, some guy has Irish father and Latvian mother, he was born in Poland, raised ther and speaks Polish and he declares himslef to be a Pole, and you would still claim he isn't a Pole by his ethnicity? He can live in Russia later as well... --Wüstenfuchs 00:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I provided six sources (there are many more if you'd like for me to add them on here), where is stated in black and white that he was a BOSNIAN MUSLIM. You provided a source -- written by a SERB (nationalist). Serbs have a history of trying to Serb-ify/Croat-ify Bosniaks -- as do you here on Wikipedia. Mesa Selimovic was a Bosniak. the end. --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 00:36, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The end sounds like an ultimatum. The problem with your sources - there are no pages. I can't check those. I acctualy did check them and found nothing. That's a problem. Now, I provided sources, not writen by Serbian nationalists, well, one author is a Serb the other is an university professor, as you may have seen. You claim that those are nationalist works? Not at all. Those books clearly say that Selimović himself said to be a Serb... the Hayder's book even mentions the term "ethnicit" not "nationality". You replaced those sources for unknown reason (I mentioned mine for replacing yours above). --Wüstenfuchs 00:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should bring a third party into this discussion. Somebody who isn't form Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia; etc. --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 00:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

If you insist. I'll make a rfc, though, it is clear enough he was a Serb. --Wüstenfuchs 00:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

And I disagree with you. He was a Bosniak --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 00:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

OMG. None cares about this dispute. He was bosniak, and then became serb. So, we have sources for both of those. Then, i have the best solution. Remove both of those infos, and leave ethnicity empty. If anyone really cares about this person, he/she will read more then infobox. Be careful, disputes like this are sanctionable under WP:ARBMAC. --WhiteWriter^speaks 00:57, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

<3 you whitewriter --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 01:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• RfC Response - Ethnicity/race/religion questions like these are notoriously difficult to solve. Fact is, there is no "ultimate authority" which decides which ethnicity someone belongs to. Ethnicity can't be measured with a yard stick either. I generally seek follow the guidelines enunciated in WP:BLPCAT. In cases where ethnicity/race/religion are not clear or are subject to dispute, "self identification" is key. If there is an RS in which Selimović says he is Bosniak, then he is Bosniak. If he says he is Serb, then he is Serb. If Selimović can't be shown to have unambiguously identified with one of these groups, then WP shouldn't be trying to decide which one he belongs in. Can either of the two camps here point to a source where Selimović unambiguously claims to be a member of one of the aforementioned groups? NickCT (talk) 20:52, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

My point also. --Wüstenfuchs 23:22, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, based on RfC, we should try different approach. Demir, do you have some good reliable source that he is bosnian? --WhiteWriter^speaks 18:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I gave six I think, reliable sources -- but they were reverted. Wustenfuchs has been edit warring with multiple users. --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 23:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

What you provided aren't reliable sources. --Wüstenfuchs 00:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Explain to me how the two links you provided are --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

They show no page, it was impossible to check them. One can't tell did you abused those sources. If you are citing a book, you need to live a page number, ISBN and stuff... --Wüstenfuchs 01:18, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

YOURS are the ones that show no page; mine were six google-book references --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 01:25, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Gott im Himmel. Are you mocking me, or making jokes? --Wüstenfuchs 02:09, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

What does "Gott im Himmel" mean --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 02:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Wustenfuchs and Demir Bajraktarevic stop edit warring. Wustenfuchs, you were given a "final warning" already, but it appears it's had no effect on your behavior so a report on the both of you may be necessary. You've tried to play this ethnic claim game many times before and have caused completely unnecessary disruption. To address the pages: the Google book links are to specific pages so I don't see where the issue is. To address the matter: to represent this individual as simply one or the other ethnicity is POV and if we really want to open this can of worms then we would also have to revisit the Ivo Andric article. It's best to leave this infobox entry empty. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 19:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

He didn't linked the pages, only the title... If you understand me.. I would see the page if he linked me one, but he didn't. I'm not a moron. --Wüstenfuchs 19:58, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what else to tell you other than that they are indeed there. The man's "classification" is controversial (the fact that this talkpage is so long and primarily revolves around this man's ethnicity is a testament to that) and it differs by birth and by choice, akin to Andric. To push one over the other as the most definitive would be to push a particular POV. If we would go down this road then feel free to remove Andric from the Croats and Bosnian Croats infobox and add "Serb" to his infobox. I ask to you to kindly return the article to it's previous consensus version without any sort of ethnic entry. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 20:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

We leave the infobox as it was (before my latest edit). That is what I agree. --Wüstenfuchs 20:35, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

@reDemirBajraktarevic - "I gave six I think, reliable sources" - Could you do me a favor and just list those sources. Let me take a look at them. If they show that "Selimović unambiguously claims to be a member" of either group here, I'll weigh in in your favor. NickCT (talk) 16:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

They are all in this revision in the infobox next to "Bosniak": http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Me%C5%A1a_Selimovi%C4%87&oldid=522901777 --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 16:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, most of those mention him being Serbian also... --WhiteWriter^speaks 18:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Which one? --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 19:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Those with pages, and I need to make an apology to Demir, I haven't noticed that some refs contained pages, though they do show him as a Serb. --Wüstenfuchs 20:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)