|The Arbitration Committee has permitted Wikipedia administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on any editor editing this page or associated pages.|
|↓||Skip to table of contents||↓|
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Naturopathy article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8|
|Do not feed the trolls!
This article or its talk page has experienced trolling. The subject may be controversial or otherwise objectionable, but it is important to keep discussion on a high level. Do not get bogged down in endless debates that don't lead anywhere. Know when to WP:Deny recognition and refer to WP:PSCI, WP:FALSEBALANCE, WP:WikiVoice, or relevant notice-boards. Legal trolling or threats are never allowed!
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot I. Any threads with no replies in 21 days may be automatically moved. Sections without timestamps are not archived.|
I find it quite unfortunate that Wiki and it's users adhere to the slanderous propaganda of "mainstream medicine" when it comes to Naturopathy. I would like to see the article changed, at the very least, to something neutral regarding natural medicine. Naturopathic medicinal practices have been utilized by healers as longs as healing has been around. Hippocrates is widely considered the father of Naturopathic medicine and was a great healer of his time. His philosophy was that the body has the ability to heal itself as long as we treat it the way it was designed. That being said, if we eat natural unprocessed foods, it is widely known that this will (in most cases) present with better overall health. In contrast, if we toxify our bodies with chemical laden foods and other toxins (ingestible, inhalable, injectible, absorbable chemicals), then we are prone to poor health. Naturopathic Physicians combine the benefits different modalities of medicine, from ancient healing arts, such as Ayurveda, Acupuncture, and Herbal medicine (and more) to Modern "Conventional" medicine such as laboratory analysis, medical imaging, chiropractic manipulation, oncology, biology (and more). Just as in "Conventional" Medicine, there are many practitioners of Naturopathic Medicine. Also as in Western medicine, some practitioners are quite skilled in healing, others less so. Licensed Naturopathic Physicians are trained in multiple modalities of both Western and Eastern Medicine. A large difference, however, is that Western Medicine physicians are trained to treat symptomatically (mostly with prescription drugs or surgery), while Naturopathic Physicians are trained to find the root cause of the symptoms and fix the problem causing the symptoms. Their training is very much diet/nutrition based because improper nutrition is, most times, the initial cause of illness. With all of the faith that is put in Western Medicine, how much does it actually benefit? In the United States, "medical errors" is now considered the 3rd leading cause of death (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/researchers-medical-errors-now-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-united-states/ The point of this is not to say that Naturopathic Medicine is a cure all or a magic fix. My point is only to show that it is, in fact, a legitimate science and medicinal modality, and should be reflected as such, especially when described by such a widely used information source, such as Wikipedia. Here are some articles that speak to the legitimacy of Naturopathic Medicine, for what it's worth: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-weeks/integrative-medicine_b_1584998.html http://optimalintegration.org/project-perl/achieving-competency-in-evidence-informed-practice-a-resource_guide/ep4-analyze-the-research-base.php http://www.naturopathy-union.eu/en/naturopathy/ https://nccih.nih.gov/health/naturopathy https://www.anme-ngo.eu/en/364-swiss-recognize-homeopathy-legitimate-medicine.html http://www.thenddc.com/know-naturopathic-doctors/ Vpsdudley (talk) 00:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Constructive suggestions are welcome, but for an article such as this one that has been through many hard-fought discussions, you need to make concrete and specific suggestions based on sources that meet the requirements of WP:MEDRS. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 05:46, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2017
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
Naturopathic doctors do not harm people, please remove the second paragraph from this definition it is not true. Naturopathic practitioners take the same oath as any doctor practicing medicine in America. Naturopathic Doctors are licensed and accredited in most states in America. It is not the normal though in America or anywhere else in the World that naturopathic medicine harms people or is unscientific. Remove Pseudoscience from your definition of naturopathy. That word is a false representation of the definition of naturopathy. Remove the second paragraph from this definition as well, it is not true. Naturopathic doctors do not harm people nor is this the normal thought in America or anywhere else in the world. Naturopathic Doctors are licensed in America and naturopathy is viable form of study with accredited materials and degrees of education. Do your research Wikipedia!!! 2601:280:4900:3BD5:218B:D1A6:279E:8275 (talk) 21:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
The second paragraph: "Education in naturopathic medicine often contains little to no clinical training, nor follow curriculum designed by established primary care doctors." It is unsourced in the lede. I made this change for now. QuackGuru (talk) 23:19, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- It's actually contradicted by later sources in the article, like this. The "clinical training" may be garbage, but it clearly isn't accurate to say that it doesn't exist. It might be more accurate to say that it isn't adequate to be an actual primary care physician? --tronvillain (talk) 20:26, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2017
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
184.108.40.206 (talk) 02:30, 8 April 2017 (UTC) Naturopathy are devine need ALLH LORD GOD MADTER to bhow the way
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —MRD2014 📞 contribs 02:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the guidance
While you state that you need reputable sources for your information, I don't think that calling is pseudoscientific, non scientific, or stating that it is "considered by the medical profession to be ineffective and possibly harmful" came from a reputable research source, just mentioning. That being said, I have a few reputable sources studying some naturopathic treatments that show their safety and effectiveness, as well as their scientific method. Please keep in mind, however, that applying the scientific method, as it pertains to traditions pharmaceutical trials, is a rather ineffective way to judge any herbal medicine, or specific modality, because the naturopathic model for treatment generally incorporates multiple modalities, herbal medications at varying doses, and more frequent and in depth diagnosis and care. Because naturopathic care does not treat symptomatically, it is a misconception to say that a single herb or type of treatment doesn't work to treat a single symptom. Naturopathic healing is a process of treatments, lifestyle changes, and medicines to heal the body.
Also, stating that "Over the years, many practitioners of naturopathic medicine have been found criminally liable in the courts of law around the world." is a gross misrepresentation. I guarantee that many more practitioners of western or conventional medicine have been found criminally liable in the courts of law around the world. In addition, Pharmaceutical companies have also been found criminally liable in the courts of law around the world. It is quite unfortunate that Wiki portrays such a negative bias and unfactual opinion in their entry.
That being said, I do not dispute the fact that some, possibly many Alternative medicine providers are lacking in expertise, but you must concede, that in many health professionals in every modality are lacking expertise. I also do not dispute the fact that clinical training for naturopaths often leaves quite a lot to be desired, however, many in the profession are VERY good at what they do, and operate in a true medical fashion. NUNM, in Portland, helps their graduates get into residency programs to aid them in their clinical skills, there is also an onsite clinic for training in that regard. Several of the naturopathic clinics in Portland offer 3 year residencies to ND graduates. Some of the larger clinics have a very intensive 3 year residency program, in which the resident doctor doesn't see patients on their own until at least the middle of the second year. Naturopathic Physical Medicine - Generan  
Dietary Change 
Botanicals/Herbal Medicine/Homeopathics Arndt, W., Mitnik, C., Denzler, K.L., Waters, R.F., Jacobs, B.L., Rochon, Y., and Langland, J.O. (2012). Rediscovery of a 19th century cure for smallpox. PLOS ONE 7(3):e32610. Epub 2012 Mar 9  
Given these sources, and the fact that over 75% of the world's population uses what we in the US call "Complementary or Alternative Medicine," I would like to recommend the following edits to this article.
Naturopathy or naturopathic medicine is a form of medicine in which the body is diagnosed for abnormalities in function (i.e. dysfunction). The principles of a Naturopathic Physician are to treat the body based on the cause of the symptoms, and in treating, to augment the body's own healing processes. Naturopathic Medicine uses healing practices that have been integrated through hundreds (and some modalities, thousands) years of medicine. In general, naturopathic physicians try to avoid the use of many pharmaceuticals for symptomatic relief, not only because of the harmful side effects of most pharmaceuticals, but also due to the increased toxic load on the liver an kidneys (which can inhibit the body's ability to filter the blood), because they believe that covering up the symptoms with drugs can hide the true cause of the problem until it is much further progressed, and because they try to treat each individual based on a full diagnosis of all of their symptoms and concerns (holistic diagnosis and treatment). Naturopathic healing is generally focused on dietary intake and nutritional support to promote the body's ability to heal. Some naturopathic doctors also incorporate adjustment therapy, homeopathics, herbal medications, acupuncture, constitutional hydrotherapy, electrotherapy, intravenous medications, prolotherapy, and many other methods of treatment. Naturopathic Physicians are pushing for more recognition in the US and Canada due to the limitations of their scope in many areas. Currently, only 17 states license Naturopathic doctors. A doctor of Natural Medicine or Naturopathy (ND) is required to obtain a Bachelors degree, then obtain a medical degree from an approved and accredited medical school, complete a graduate level program in naturopathic medicine, pass the naturopathic physicians licensing exams, and fulfill state and local licensing requirements. Many Naturopathic Physicians also choose to become certified in Acupuncture, or to study adjustment therapy so they can treat the body more functionally across the board. (http://study.com/articles/How_to_Become_a_Naturopathic_Therapist_Education_and_Career_Roadmap.html) Naturopathic Doctors are often confused with other Homeopathic or Alternative medicine practitioners who often have little medical background. Alternative care practitioners and western medicine practitioners are often at odds with one another, both sides accusing the other of malpractice or harm, however, it is becoming more common in the US to find functional medicine practitioners (MD's and ND's) who treat patients through multiple medical modalities. In addition, much research is showing a shift in the beliefs of the medical community. Many pharmaceuticals are being found more and more dangerous, and less and less effective at symptomatic relief, causing more and more patients to seek out "Complementary or Alternative Medicine." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vpsdudley (talk • contribs) 21:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, Vpsdudley. This is coming along, but I, myself, can't yet support making the suggested edit because many of these references are not up to WP:MEDRS and to my ear it still sounds heavily of POV/advocacy. I hope there are some other editors with this page on their Watchlist who can provide additional guidance. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 02:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Please read the introductory section for this section in terms of transparent bias in perspective and common logical fallacies. Though containing citations the use of cherry picking is clearly evident. There is a clear intention to steer an opinion rather than inform. The quotes around naturopathic concepts is a plainly obvious intention to convey disregard for the ideas without executing intellectual rigor to present an argument or proof against them. The term "self-healing" is treated in this way and, yet, if the words allostasis and homeostasis were used in the scientific and medical commumunity there would be zero issue with the terms - self healing and allostasis are merely different terms for the same phenomenon. The quaity of this article is beneath wikipedia's standards. Edits have been proposed and ignored. The assertion that naturopathy doesn't provide training in differential diagnosis, use laboratory or imaging in develping diagnosis or is adverse to referral or use of allopathic medicine when appropriate is so patently untrue the considerable bias of the contributor who structured is de facto.
"Naturopathy or naturopathic medicine is a form of pseudoscientific, alternative medicine that employs an array of practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", and as promoting "self-healing." The ideology and methods of naturopathy are based on vitalism and folk medicine, rather than evidence-based medicine. Naturopathic practitioners generally recommend against modern medical practices, including but not limited to medical testing, drugs, vaccinations, and surgery. Instead, naturopathic study and practice rely on unscientific notions, often leading naturopathic doctors to diagnoses and treatments that have no factual merit.
Naturopathic medicine is considered by the medical profession to be ineffective and possibly harmful, raising ethical issues about its practice. In addition to accusations from the medical community, such as the American Cancer Society, naturopaths and naturopathic doctors have repeatedly been accused of being charlatans and practicing quackery. Over the years, many practitioners of naturopathic medicine have been found criminally liable in the courts of law around the world. In some countries, it is a criminal offense for naturopaths and naturopathic doctors to label themselves as medical professionals."
I have too many projects to get into this at this time. However, this wiki topic needs attention to meet wiki standards.