Talk:Pet, No. 9/Archive01

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Pet, No. 9.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I've changed the licene from myself to PD-1923. I own this print. The artist is Elisha Taylor Baker and the painting was done circa 1880. --Greg Henderson (talk) 15:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Request Edit A

• Information to be added or removed: The Pet No. 9 was owned by Joseph Henderson. In 1929, Charles Edward Russell in his book, From Sandy Hook to 62°, wrote about the Pet and Henderson as the pilot.
• Explanation of issue: I think it is important to note that pilot boats were owned by pilots and Henderson owned this one. They actually paid for the NY pilot boats and Henderson was a owner as listed under the Mystic Seaport pilot registrations.
• References supporting change: https://research.mysticseaport.org/indexes/ship-registers/

Greg Henderson (talk) 19:41, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: I can't verify this using that source, could you provide a more specific citation? Seagull123 Φ 13:39, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: @Seagull123: This request does not explain that the COI editor is looking to have information that was removed re-inserted. Per WP:V, contents that can not be verified should not be inserted, but this isn't to be read that anything verifiable is fair game per WP:NOTEVERYTHING. The records are based on primary source records. If the records in question was important enough, a reliable source would have already discussed it in the right context. The issue in the beginning was that someone who has a conflict of interest that wants to include Henderson related stuff decided to include it based on primary source information which I argue is an undue inclusion. Consider a notable Yacht once owned by a notable person, that has been bought by Joe Nobody #1, and Joe Nobody #2 before being recycled. It would be inappropriate for Joe Nobody #1's descendant to use scanned copy of historical government watercraft registry posted on some website to get their family name into the article even if Joe Nobody #1 has a Wikipedia article. It would be a different matter if a reliable, independent non-trivial coverage exists about Joe Nobody #1 in relation to the yacht.. and that example wouldn't be the obituary of Joe Nobody #1 saying he once owned that yacht. I did remove contents like "On November 4, 1872, Henderson spoke at a meeting of the Board of Commissioners of Pilots about how he and his boat Pet, No. 9, rescued the crew of the brig Emily" as well as historical ownership information based on https://research.mysticseaport.org/item/l0179721885/772/ which appears similar to the tyep of records I just discussed above. Graywalls (talk) 21:59, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, How about we say, According to the Record of American and Foreign Shipping, the Pet was built in 1868 and was owned by the New York Pilots. Joseph Henderson was master of the boat from 1876-1885. COI editor: --Greg Henderson (talk) 18:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006:, is the aforementioned record basically a compilation of primary source record similar to State Marine Board vessel registry or FAA aircraft tail # registry? Graywalls (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Graywalls: Yes, it is a primary source that can be used to provide important information about how the boat was registered, e.g. type of boat, tonnage, when built, owners, and master of the boat. The records show that Joseph Henderson was the only captain of the boat from 1876-1885. --Greg Henderson (talk) 18:45, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with your opinion of importance and I'm content with omitting unless a secondary source piece that is not focused on Henderson discusses it. If it's only discussed in Henderson focused stuff, this should remain in Henderson pages and not here. Graywalls (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Got it. The secondary source is: Charles Edward Russell in his book, From Sandy Hook to 62°; page 151, where he talks about Pilot Henderson and the Pet. This is not a Henderson focused secondary source, but rather an account of Sandy Hook pilots in general. Since the Pet was piloted by Henderson, I think it important to say that he was the master of the boat from 1876-1885 based on secondary and primary sources. --Greg Henderson (talk) 21:10, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

It seems like such a trivial mention that it's not inclusion worthy. This is the part "Catapulted Henderson overboard", but I can only see snippets. Graywalls (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Request Edit B

• Information to be added or removed: I would like improve this article by citing that Joseph Henderson was master of the Pet, No. 9.
• Explanation of issue: I think it is important to note that pilot-boats were assigned to a master or captain.
• References supporting change: Add the following citation: "According to Record of American and Foreign Shipping, the Pet was built in 1868 and was owned by the New York Pilots. Joseph Henderson was master of the boat from 1876-1885." --Greg Henderson (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

References

 Not done The reference fails to make positive identification without needing interpretation by Wikipedia editor. Recall what happened in the G.W. Blunt article where you got the two ships mixed up and incorrectly marked the wrong ship as "sunk at sea". Graywalls (talk) 00:58, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, as mentioned on Joseph Henderson's talk page, there is a source that positively connects the "Pet" with the Joseph Henderson. It can be found in the Index to Ship Registers, from 1876 through 1885, which lists Jos. Henderson as the master of the Pet, e.g. Record of American and Foreign Shipping 1885. You will see two boats named Pet in these records, but only one is listed to Jos. Henderson as Master and N. Y. Pilots as owners. The other "Pet" is from San Francisco.--Greg Henderson (talk) 04:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

which took place AFTER your request. The source you provided, the PRIMARY SOURCE DATA TABLE on its own fails to support it, which was the basis for declining it. Graywalls (talk) 23:13, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Request Edit D

• Information to be added or removed: Revise the data under the section Specifications. It does not match what is in the Infobox and does not match what is in the ship registries from 1876 through 1885 e.g. Record of American and Foreign Shipping 1885. Ship records show Tons as 56 [Thames Measurement] not as 125 tons Builder's Old Measurement. The two sections should match and clarify using old or new measurement. Most of the articles about Pilot boats are using the Thames Measurement. Thanks! --Greg Henderson (talk) 23:39, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Changed to Thames. -- GreenC 23:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)