Talk:Petar Baćović/Archive 1

Archive 1

Philip Cohen's 'Serbia's Secret War

According to RSN discussion Philip Cohen's 'Serbia's Secret War is not reliable source.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

according to one editor, (User:Fifelfoo). That is not consensus. RSN states "While we attempt to offer a second opinion, and the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not official policy". There was no consensus of several editors, and it certainly isn't official policy. Your tagging of this whole article on the basis of Cohen, whose reliability you personally dispute, is just disruptive and blatant POV warring. Continuation of this approach beyond the currently affected article (Djurisic) where you don't have a consensus, will be reported as disruption. Peacemaker67 (talk) 09:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Operation Trio

This article uses the Ramet reference re: Operation Trio. This is the same issue as that discussed at Talk:Operation Trio/Archive 1#Chetnik Commanders. I believe the correct operation in this case is 1942 Montenegro offensive. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 03:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Šahovići conference

Baćović didnt attend the conference. Mihailović's representatives were Ostojić, Đurišić and Đorđije Lašić or Bajo Stanišić. -- Bojan  Talk  10:34, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Cleansing actions in Pljevlja, Čajniče and Foča

Baćović didn't take part in these actions. He was then in Lika preparing for offensive against Bihać Republic. -- Bojan  Talk  04:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

What is your source for that? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 04:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

A message from Mihailović sent to Baćović (Ištvan) dated to Febuary 1 in which Mihailović praises Baćović for actions in Vrlika in late January, notifies Baćović that Đurišić is coming toward Ostojić (Branko) and he is cleaning everything in front of him. Baćović couldn't be in Sandžak with Đurišić and in Lika with Jevđević, Đujić, Ivanišević and Mihić folowing Trifunović-Birčanin's death in February 1943. This section is taken from articles on Đurišić and Ostojić, Baćović has nothing with killings in Pljevla, Foča and Čajniče. -- Bojan  Talk  19:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

From memory, that's not what Pajovic says, he lists him as one of the commanders. But I'll check that detail. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 23:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm 100% sure that Bacovic couldn't be at two places in same time. He was with Đujić during these events. -- Bojan  Talk  03:44, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Dedijer & Miletić p. 591 states: "U februaru 1943. četnici pod komandom Zaharija Ostojića, Petra Baćovića, Pavla Đurišića, Voje Lukačevića, Vuka Kalaitovića i drugih, u srezovima pljevaljskom, čajničkom i fočanskom zaklali 1,200 muškaraca i 8,000 staraca, žena i dece, i opljačkali, pa potom spalili, oko 2,000 domova." 23 editor (talk) 04:23, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Lets see timeline of events with which we all concur.

• Baćović joins Đujić in Knin in late December of 1942.
• On 10 February 1943, he signs a proclamation together with Đujić, Ivanišević and Ilija Mihić. We all know Đujić never left his region until the end of 1944.

From Đurišić report we know that killings in Foča, Pljevlja and Čajniče districts occurred in first half of February 1943.

So, it is not possible for Baćović to re-appear in distant ares through partisan territory in just few days. According to Fikreta Jelić Butić, Baćović was transported by train from Knin area to Solin on February 27. (Baćović je na čelu svoje grupacije prebačen vlakom s kninskog područja 27. veljače do Solina) Baćović was reposinble for kilings in Vrlika area, but not for Pljevlja and Foča. Đurišić did that. -- Bojan  Talk  15:19, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Your actions in removing this material is inappropriate. There is no deadline. Allow other editors to look at a range of sources. Some of the above is OR. Just cool your heels and I'm sure we will come to a consensus about this, using reliable sources. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

No, your actions are inappropriate. You don't take part in this conversation, just revert my corrections. I gave you timeline of events, I cited Phd thesis of late historian Fikreta Jelić-Butić, I gave you messages from Draža Mihailović himself. As I said, lack of information is better than potentially false information. Baćović in winter 1942/1943 was in Dalmatia, not in Sandžak and Hercegovina. -- Bojan  Talk  04:13, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Neither 23 editor nor I agree that we have sufficient information to remove it at this stage. You are essentially edit-warring to get your way. I don't spend all day on WP, I will look at this issue over the weekend. Keep your hair on. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 05:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

BTW, original docs are PRIMARY, and must only be used with caution. A PhD thesis by a historian should be ok, but there are obviously conflicting sources on this matter, and that needs to be resolved. Cheers. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 05:56, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Neither You, nor 23editor didn't put any new information here. If you don't agree, then please explain this timeline or do not revert. Đurišić's report is dated to February 13th, a Baćović signed above-mentioned proclamation on February 10th. If he didn't have wings, I don't know how he could be present in distant areas through battlefield at same time. Further, I never found that any source that claims Baćović was present at Šahovići conference. Mihailović representatives were Đurišić and Ostojić, so I don't see how it is related to Baćović. In article on Baćović you write on Đurišić, Đurišić and again Đurišić. Baćović led Herzegovina chetniks transported in northern Dalmatia by Italian prior to battle of Neretva. -- Bojan  Talk  06:52, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Look, if you could just put a lid on it for a bit, I might actually get to the sources. I'm looking at Pajovic at the moment. OK? FFS. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 06:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

People, please remain WP:CIVIL. There's likely substance in what Bojan is saying, but let's wait for PM67 to unearth what Pajović wrote on the massacres before jumping into edit wars, hmm? This isn't a highly frequented article and we already have Dedijer and Miletić putting Baćović in east Bosnia and northwest Montenegro in January '43. If we have conflicting sources, we should bring that up somewhere in the article. Otherwise, edit warring won't get any of us anywhere. 23 editor (talk) 19:34, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks 23, you have a cooler head than I. Anyhoo..., I have now had a look at Pajović's bio of Đurišić, and I now wonder if we might have a source conflict. Here is what I found (correct me if my translations aren't up to speed):

1. on page 62–63 he relates "Za komandanta operacija određen je major Z. Ostojić, koji je dobio naređenje da 12. prosinca 1942. krene na put preko Šavnika i Avtovca, gdje ga je trebao dočekati P. Baćović." ie (if my translation is right) that on 12 December 1942, Ostojić travelled to Avtovac to meet with Baćović (therefore Baćović was in eastern Herzegovina in mid-December).
2. on page 63 he mentions the expansion of the Chetnik involvement in Case White to include non-"legalised" Chetniks, and DM's orders of 2 January 1943, he mentions the planned involvement of "korpus hercegovačkih četnika od 3000 ljudi pod komandom P. Baćovića u rajonu Knina, Strmice i Plavnog", which I take to mean the Herzegovina Chetnik Corps of 3000 men commanded by P. Baćović in the areas of Knin, Strmica, Croatia and Plano (village near Knin, no article at the moment). So this gives an indication of where Baćović's Chetniks were in early January 1943. ie Dalmatian hinterland around Knin. No info in this source as to how they came to be there. It also mentions that Đujić and his Chetniks were in the area of Gračac in Lika at that time.
3. on page 63 when he lists the Chetnik commanders of the detachments and columns that committed the subject massacres while under Đurišić's command. Baćović is not listed, this is telling, given he had been mentioned earlier, so if he was involved, you would expect him to be mentioned. The text is: "Prvotno se mislilo da u pohodu na Bosnu sudjeluju samo aktivni (legalni) četnici. Međutim, Mihailovićevom direktivom br. 1 od 2. siječnja 1943. ova je akcija dobila širi karakter. Mihailović je, naime, naredio da se u toj operaciji angažira jedan korpus u okolici Otočca pod komandom majora Bjelajca, jačine 2000 ljudi, korpus popa Dujića, također 2000 ljudi u rajonu Gračaca i Lovinca, korpus hercegovačkih četnika od 3000 ljudi pod komandom P. Baćovića u rajonu Knina, Strmice i Plavnog, Kosovska brigada od 600 ljudi u okolini Drniša, korpus crnogorskih četnika jačine 3000 ljudi pod komandom Baje Stanišića u rajonu Donje Jablanice i Rame, srednjobosanski korpus kapetana Mitranovića u oblasti Banje Luke, Mrkonjić-Grada i Jajca, također sa 3000 ljudi. Osim toga, Mihailović je za ovu operaciju predvidio i rezervu Vrhovne komande od 4000—5000 ljudi pod zapovjedništvom Pavia Durišića."
4. on pages 65–66, he mentions that in late January 1943, Bacovic was absent (where isn't clear from the source), and that a Major Pantić commanded his Chetniks in his stead. Pantić isn't listed as being involved in the massacres. The text is: "Obaviješten o talijanskoj mobilizaciji četnika, Draža Mihailović je odmah naredio Ostojiću da hitno prikupi bar tisuću ljudi »za prvi momenat« i da ih prebaci kamionima do Jablanice, pa da s Talijanima napadne snage NOVJ »prema situaciji«. Izvršavajući ovo naređenje D. Mihailovića, Ostojić je preko majora Pantića, koji je zamjenjivao odsutnog Baćovića, proveo mobilizaciju svih ljudi pod oružjem s područja Hercegovine. Ostojić je znao da snage hercegovačkih četnika nisu dovoljne da bi se djelotvorno suprotstavile jedinicama NOVJ, pa je poduzeo mjere da se 5000 crnogorskih četnika što prije uputi prema Neretvi. Najveću ugroženost osjećao je na pravcu Konjic — Glavatičevo i preko planine Bjelašnice prema Trnovu, pa je štabu Limsko-sandžačkih četničkih odreda uputio poruku da sa svojim snagama u roku od pet dana stignu u Konjic."
   

Now, to me, that at least poses the question as to whether Dedijer & Miletić are correct. I will now have a look at Tomasevich and some other refs. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:34, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

So far as Tomasevich 1975 p. 217 is concerned, he mentions that on 28 February 1943, there were 7,816 Orthodix and 321 Catholic MVAC units in Italian service as part of the XVIII Army Corps under the Sassari and Bergamo Divisions, of which 2,807 men were brought to northern Dalmatia from Herzegovina and were under the command of Major Petar Baćović. Tomasevich observes that Đujić is not mentioned in the primary record, despite being the primary Chetnik commander in the region. On p. 240, he mentions DM sending orders to Baćović and his troops in northern Dalmatia and western Bosnia on 17 or 18 February 1943, directing them to attack towards the Neretva and the Partisan rear. This is consistent with the source used by BokicaK (ie that Baćović was elsewhere immediately before/after the massacres in Herzegovina and Sandžak). I'll take a look at a couple of other sources, because it may become important what the weight of reliable sources is. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:27, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Fikreta Jelić-Butić wrote in a note that Baćović arrived in Knin on December 28th. -- Bojan  Talk  10:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Milazzo p. 114 states that Baćović brought about 2,000 Chetniks to Knin and Gračac "at the beginning of the year", and on p. 115 that they were receiving arms and ammunition from the Italians by 9 January. On p. 117 he places Baćović's group under the control of the Italian Bergamo division, and on p. 118 he observes that the Partisans had captured almost all the Chetnik strongpoints around Knin and that by 1 February, Baćović's Chetniks had suffered about 200 dead and were considered "tired, dirty and shoeless" by the Italians. On p. 121 there is mention of Baćović and Đujić trying to mount offensive actions near Bos. Grahovo in early February. On p. 123, he talks about attempts to get Baćović's Chetniks back to Herzegovina, the footnote relates to a message dated 25 February. I think we need to reflect that the weight of sources indicates that Baćović was in the Dalmatian hinterland at the time of these massacres, and was not involved, consistent with Jelić-Butić, Pajovic, Tomasevich and Milazzo, despite what Dedijer and Miletic say. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: Sounds good. Let's take out the erroneous section and add all the material that you've dug up. 23 editor (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Yep, I assume Bojan will be happy with that, I'll start culling. I'm thinking the Dedijer and Miletic reference would best go in a note. What do you think? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:39, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

No, the mention of Baćović is just one of many errors in the text. For example, the massacres in question are also listed as taking place in January–February 1942 on one page. Having said that, I don't think there's any point to adding a note since it's clear that Baćović and his Chetniks were in Dalmatia at the time. 23 editor (talk) 17:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Given this, I'm going to go through all the refs in the article and check source-text consistency, add anything else I find, then check back with you re: ACR nom. We'll just take it as read that the academic consensus is with him being in Dalmatia, not the Sandzak, prior to Case Weiss. Sound good? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:30, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. 23 editor (talk) 03:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Conferences in Zimonjica Kula and Avtovac

Are same event. Milazo dates it to 13th July, but Yugoslav historians date it to 22-23 July. -- Bojan  Talk  04:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Fikreta Jelic Butic: O mogućnosti ostvarivanja toga plana po svoj prilici je raspravljano na sastanku Mihailovića i grupe četničkih rukovodilaca, 22-23. srpnja 1942. u Zimonjića Kuli, nedaleko od Avtovca. Bio je to ujedno i susret Mihailovića s Birčaninom, koji je u srpnju obilazio četničke jedinice u Hercegovini.

Miitary History Instite of former JNA: Ilija Birčanin se sa Dražom Mihailovićem sastao 22. jula 1942, u Zimonjića Kuli (Pusto Polje, južno od Avtovca). Sastanku su prisustvovali i major Zaharije Ostojić, kapetan Pavle Đurišić i veći broj četničkih komandanata i vođa iz Hercegovine. -- Bojan  Talk  04:52, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm quite concerned about some of the content, and now think I am going to need to check all sources. The Hoare citation doesn't support the content there, and Milazzo p. 94 actually states the conference was 22–23 July at Avtovac. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Dedijer and Miletic

Some of the material from this source is actually from a transcript of the charges against DM at his trial, and is just reproduced in the book (eg p. 581). This is pretty dubious, and I believe this material should not be used unless corroborated by other reliable sources (Hoare, Pajovic etc). I'm going to go through and remove anything from that part of the book that is just a transcript from the DM trial. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 11:18, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

A lot of it is lifted from reports sent to Mihailovic by individual Chetnik commanders. I believe this material should remain. 23 editor (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

But those documents aren't footnoted there, and some of it may be from other sources. If they were discussing it in a narrative form, and referring to the reports (in the way Hoare or Tomasevich do), I would agree with you. They may do that elsewhere in the book, in which case I would support its inclusion. However, the material on p. 581 is purely a transcript of the charges against DM, ie it is effectively WP:PRIMARY, from what was essentially a political trial, the process of which has been fairly heavily criticised over the years. The two authors have not analysed it on that page, they have not weighed any evidence, drawn any conclusions etc. They have not even footnoted it in narrative, it is just a reproduction of the indictment. Let's see if anyone else has a view, and if we can't form a consensus, I'll RfD it. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)