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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 08:48, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Happy to review this article.

Review

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Lead section / infobox

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  • 1842 doesn’t lead where you expect it to. I would put the article it is linked to in a ‘See also' section.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • just weeks earlier – 'weeks earlier' is sufficient.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who was Mathieu Wielhorsky? (amend to something like ‘the Russian cellist Mathieu Wielhorsky’).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • his wife Clara – needs to be amended to 'Schumann’s wife Clara', for the sake of clarity.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Liepzig (in the infobox).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • premiered by her – strictly speaking this could be considered incorrect, as she was accompanied by other players.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’m unclear what coherent on a large scale means here.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • moves around a scale – which scale is being referred to here?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It’s not obvious why one of the most beautiful cello themes is with quote marks.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Today, it is recognized as the culmination of virtually all previous exploration – I would add ‘up to that time’ or something similar, to make it clear to readers that other piano quartets developed the genre after Schumann’s work was written.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would use (this, p. 5) to identify the instruments played by the quartet at the premiere (in both the infobox and the main text of the article).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:13, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

4.1 Sources

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Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:03, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The following url links are available:
  1. Chernaik - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Schumann/wtliDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
  2. Daverio (1997) - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Robert_Schumann/NcDnCwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
  3. Daverio (2002) - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Crossing_Paths/_0Op5iSV28kC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
  4. Geck - https://archive.org/details/robertschumannli0000geck/page/n5/mode/2up
  5. Keller - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Chamber_Music/6OCOvvu0O1wC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
  6. Krebs https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Fantasy_Pieces/ASroCwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
  7. Murray - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Chamber_Music/8D59CAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
  8. Jensen - https://archive.org/details/schumann0000jens/page/n3/mode/2up
  9. Smallman - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Piano_Quartet_and_Quintet/7TzEBCIO8sgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=smallman+The+Piano+Quartet+and+Quintet:+Style,+Structure,+and+Scoring&printsec=frontcover
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:03, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Murray needs a location (for consistency).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:03, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. AM

1 Background

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  • Red link Piano quartet in C minor. Imo it needs to be added to the template ‘Chamber music by Robert Schumann’.
Not sure if the Piano Quartet in C minor is notable in its own; it was never performed publicly in Schumann's lifetime, was only recently published, and is almost never performed. intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Liepzig; Fantasiestücke, Op. 12; impresario.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’m unclear what to his reception of Schubert means here.
Resolved
 – Reworded intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would amend his second piano trio to 'Schubert’s second piano trio', for the sake of clarification.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • it was his most notable accomplishment – it needs to be clear we are talking about Schumann, and not Schubert.
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 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Red link any compositions by Schumann not already linked.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amend one-hundred thaler to '100 thalers' (linked).
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 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • a "remarkably polished work for someone who was as yet without formal training in composition" is followed by 2 citations—it needs to clearer whose words are being quoted.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • the work remained unpublished – as 4 different works are mentioned in this paragraph, I would amend this to ‘Schumann’s E♭ major quartet remained unpublished’.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • substantial chamber music – substantial in quantity or size?
Resolved
 – Reworded intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider linking Clara Schumann In the image caption.
Resolved
 – Reworded intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • dubbed his "chamber music year" – by who, and from when?
Resolved
 – Reworded intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • in September and October – the prose appear to say that the work was completed over the 2 months, I would make it clearer that it took months to write. Ditto in October and November.
Resolved
 – Reworded and expanded intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Schumann's – amend to Schumanns’.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • in a private recital – imo ‘at a private recital’ is better.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The public premiere, as I believe premieres are not held in private, public can removed.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include the instruments each performer played (as in the infobox).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 7 and 8 should be swapped round.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to this, the picture of Clara, dated 1840, was made before she was married, so the caption should read 'Clara Wieck'.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 2 (Dav 1997) doesn’t appear to mention Schubert’s 2nd piano trio on p. 246.
Resolved
 – Fixed page intforce (talk) 13:42, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 7a doesn’t appear to mention who the work was dedicated to.
Resolved
 – Fixed ref intforce (talk) 13:42, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More comments to follow. The list of comments seems to be getting very long, but many points are minor, and anyway the review gives me a good excuse to listen to hours of Schumann's chamber music, as if I needed one. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1.1 Relationship to the Piano Quintet

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  • Who are John Daverio, Ulrich Leisinger and James Keller?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 14:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 14:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • the addition of a viola adds density to the ensemble's middle range – readers unfamiliar with the terms 'density' and 'middle range' might need some help here.
Resolved
 – Rewritten intforce (talk) 14:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are 10 quoted phrases in this small section, which is too many. Most can be edited out by paraphrasing the sources instead of quoting them.
Resolved
 – Rewritten intforce (talk) 14:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2.1 Sostenuto assai – Allegro ma non troppo

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Resolved
 – Themes links to Subject (music) intforce (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • the dominant G minor – presumably 'dominant' (Dominant (music)) and 'G minor' need to be linked separately.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A minor point, but I believe bars 13 and 17 should have staccato dots above the notes.
Resolved
 – Good catch. Also fixed a wrong note in the penultimate bar. intforce (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • To verify the excellent images you produced using Dorico, the source for each one needs to be added to its own WikiCommons page.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is a 'chordal texture'?
Resolved
 – A texture consisting of chords. Since texture is already linked, I've added a link to chord. intforce (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What do abbreviations such as 'mm. 13f' stand for?
Resolved
 – Measures 13 following, similar to how you would write pp. 23f (pages 23 following). I've added a tooltip. intforce (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2.2 Scherzo: Molto vivace – Trio I – Trio II

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  • The link for Scherzo is a general link about scherzos, i.e. it doesn’t lead to where you expect it to and should be removed.
Needs clarification; scherzo links to the article on the musical scherzo, which also covers scherzos as movements of larger works. intforce (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, it's fine as it is. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:34, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – Linked Glossary of music terminology at the beginning of the section intforce (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The remarks made in the first sentence sound subjective (how do you define exuberance in music?). It might be a good idea to say whose ideas these are.
Resolved
 – Reworded. Exuberance is a term frequently used in literature to describe the music of Mendelssohn. intforce (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who was Heine (his full name and occupation are both needed here)?
Resolved
 – Full name added. Heine was one of the most famous writers in German literature. intforce (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • a "thoroughly Schumannesque series of sustained, syncopated chords in contrasting registers" – could this not be paraphrased? (I find WP:QUOTE very useful when tiptoeing through this minefield).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2.3 Andante cantabile

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  • In the coda - unlink coda, as it has already been linked at the top of the section.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who was Basil Smallman?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "surpassing lyricism", deeply romantic and song-like – whose opinion is this?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It has been called the highlight of the work, featuring "one of the most beautiful cello themes" of the Romantic period – by whom?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are imo too many musical illustrations provided for this movement. The first variation is surely too similar to the cello’s theme to warrant being included here, and I would consider limiting the total number included to illustrate the movement to two.
Resolved
 – Reformatted as table with collapsible images. (Per WP:COLLAPSE, table cells can be made collapsible if the content is purely supplementary, as the illustrations are here)intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • General points to make about the article from WP:MOSMUSIC: 1. “Large images giving segments of music or depicting features of music should be displayed in thumbnails on the left or center of the page at 550px for visibility.”; 2. “Use an informative and concise caption and alternative text for each image.”;3. Generic movement titles (such as tempo markings or terms like minuet and trio) are capitalized with a single initial capital—that is, only the first word is capitalized—and are not italicized.
  • Amend final fourteen measures to ‘final 14 measures’,
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • with a luscious cello solo – who says it is luscious?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. AM

2.4 Finale: Vivace

[edit]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:07, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The finale – check the article for consistency in the way the movements are named (capital case or small case).
Resolved
 – Consistent small case intforce (talk) 12:07, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:24, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

3 Reception and legacy

[edit]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amend the public premiere to ‘the premiere’.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove on 8 December 1844 (already stated in the text).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Smallman notes should read ‘Smallman noted’, as the person has died. Ditto calls, recognizes.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • a hundred years – ‘100 years’ (or ‘a century’).
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • after Schumann needs to be more specific – does it mean after his death, after he stopped composing chamber music, or after he stopped composing altogether?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rephrase large keyboard ensembles, which is vague and so can be misread to mean different things to different readers.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • considerable importance – why considerable?
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • of various backgrounds is redundant and should be edited out.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amend particularly those to 'particularly those composers'.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]
  • I would remove the YouTube link, as the work already has a similar external audio link within the text.
Resolved
 – intforce (talk) 12:14, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Schumann wrote more than one piano quartet, shouldn’t the title of the article be amended?
Technically yes, but this quartet is known as the Piano Quartet, as the earlier C minor quartet is virtually unknown and probably not notable in its own. They are also not called Piano Quartet No. 1 and 2. intforce (talk) 12:14, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:41, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
 – Very interesting paper. Thanks for the recommendation. Added intforce (talk) 12:23, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first edition of the quartet can be found here, courtesy of the Brahms-Institut. The page contains additional information that could be added to the article (e.g. the location of the original manuscript, and the fact that Schumann’s sketches for the work are now lost).
Resolved
 – Added, thanks intforce (talk) 12:23, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On hold

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Hi intforce, I'm placing the article on hold for a week until 12 April, to allow time for the above comments to be addressed. Please contact me if you want to discuss anything. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:29, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Passing the article

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Passing now, many thanks for all your work, and for producing a highly readable and informative article. I'm off to practise my viola now, the quavers in the scherzo are really fast when you try to play them! Amitchell125 (talk) 13:44, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the review! intforce (talk) 13:58, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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