Talk:Political prisoners in Francoist Spain

False page

What is that false page? There are NO political prisoners in Spain. Spain is a democracy in the European Union.

The “Jordis” are not political prisoners – here’s why

That is just an opinion from a unionist newspaper in Spain. The prisoners certainly fit multiple criteria defined by Amnesty International to classify someone as a political prisoner. Amnesty International has actually issued an official statement calling on Spanish authorities to immediately release Mr. Sanchez and Mr. Cuixart and to drop the charges of sedition (see https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur41/7308/2017/en/). Moreover, the European Free Alliance (an association of political parties across EU) has already referred to Mr. Cuixart and Mr. Sanchez as political prisoners (See http://www.e-f-a.org/services/news-single-view/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=1088&cHash=73d007beece71f2c330e832442bff1ed). In addition to this, footage published by several media sources shows events that contradict the text of the sentence (http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171017/432142495111/video-jordi-cuixart-jordi-sanchez-disolver-manifestacion-economia.html). Victorjjp (talk) 21:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

proposed deletion

I disagree with the recently proposed deletion of this article for a number of reasons:

1) there are already several articles that deal with the issue of political prisoners within identified countries, including Political prisoners in Syria and Political prisoners in Saudi Arabia.

2) this article will be expanded {when I get the chance) to include details of the holding of political prisoners in Spain during the dictatorship years from the 1930s to 1970s as this also helps provide context for current events and the attitudes towards the issue on both sides of the debate.

3) it will be straightforward to improve this article by adding additional references

Thanks Lin4671 (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

This page does not make sense as it is. In Spain there are no "political prisoners" and still less are the "Jordis".

Please remember that Wikipedia does not allow original work. Remember also neutrality. I made some edits to remove (most of the) original work and give neutrality, but I still think the page should be deleted. Only if you expand it as you say could be maintained.

Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 11:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

The article in El Pais does not prove anything. It is just an article from a unionist newspaper. If you consider that article as an absolute truth, then why not considering the many articles in the Catalan press, and the statements from some international organizations referring to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners? The judge ignored (or was unaware of) multiple pieces of evidence that contradict the reasons in the sentence. So, actually as time passes it looks more evident that they are actually political prisoners, fitting multiple criteria both from Amnesty International and PACE. I recommend modifying the article to make it clear it is just the opinion of El Pais, and not PACE itself. Victorjjp (talk) 18:31, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Agree to make it clear it is an article of El País. I did [1] --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 01:07, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Re: Some bloggers

Reply to this message.

No, it is not based on a single opinion. In Spain there are no political prisoners [2] [3] [4] [5]

This article used in the page explains that Cruixat and Sànchez do not meet the criteria established by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE).

You can not say things like "However, while not addressing the question of whether it regarded them as political prisoners," as it is not reflected in the source, so is an original research. Wikipedia is not a primary source, you have to adjust to the content published by verifiable secondary sources.

Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 18:33, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

So your 4 sources merely quote Spanish judges and a Spanish government minister! Do you not think we need some independent sources that are not pro-Catalan independence or part of the Spanish establishment? Lin4671 (talk) 18:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I totally agree with this. The linked sources are certainly not neutral. I believe it is okay to argue that not everyone agrees with the definition of political prisoners. But, the fact that Amnesty International has requested their immediate release is a much stronger sign that they are indeed political prisoners. This should be reflected in the article. Victorjjp (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise, a conservative judge who just happens to be a member of the government's party and who was recently appointed to his position directly by the government despite concerns of lack of qualification claims no wrongdoing from himself or the government. And he has the opinion of several right-wing newspapers to back his claim! What an outstanding and unbiased source of information. Kilgore T (talk) 03:42, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Recentism

Whatever you feel about the current (2017) sitation in Spain, the country was ruled for decades by a literally fascist regime, so the article should either be retitled to reflect its true content, or expanded to include the various victims of political persecution throughout its history.

--181.115.8.231 (talk) 00:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and it seems that is the intention of the user who created it (otherwise, the page should be deleted). I expanded a bit, mentioned the death of Franco, the existence political prisoners until democracy, the Spanish amnesty law and the transition to democracy, but there is still much work to be done. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 00:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Added stub template. [6] --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 01:24, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Some additions

I think it would be a good idea to expand the article in two relevant areas:

1) political prisoners during the preconstitutional era; right after the fascist victory and the later years of Francoism

2) the use of antiterrorist laws and "ley mordaza" against political oppositors in recent times, both denounced by amnesty international

Spanish history stub should be removed

I don't know why this stub has been added as this is an article that deals with current matters as well as historical. Lin4671 (talk) 09:24, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Lin4671 you did a good job restructuring the page, it looks better now. But is still unbalanced on recent events WP:UNDUE and does not mention historical facts. It has to keep expanding. Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 09:41, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

There were hundreds of thousands of political prisoners during the Franco era versus 0 to like 16 depending on your personal POV today. Not only is it disproportionate recentism, it's POV that the page almost exclusively talks about the Catalan crisis.--Calthinus (talk) 01:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

The introduction to the article is extraordinarly biased towards the Spanish official view

Are we just supposed to take the declarations of government officials at face value and not add any contrasting opinion?

The history of political repression in modern Spain is undeniable. The following are just a few examples from the last couple years:

• [7]
• [8]
• [9]
• [10]
• [11]
• [12]

And the further we go in the past, the worse it gets, with some of the grossest violations of political freedoms and freedom of expression occurring during or right after the transition period, see for instance the banning of political parties of the abertzale left in the end 90s.

I understand the allegations of recenteism being made because of the current events in Catalonia, but this shouldn't be an excuse to prevent us from writing about this and other instances, much less to unquestioningly parrot the official position of Spanish authorities on issues on which, unsurprisingly, they claim no wrongdoing.

As an exercise of intellectual honesty, I encourage everyone to visit other Wikipedia pages on some controversial issues and check how often the official position of the government or other institution is stated as fact in the introduction.

83.250.104.75 (talk) 19:03, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Definitions:

Political prisoner = a person imprisoned for their political beliefs. Lawbreaker = a person who breaks the law.

If Spain did the "political prisoner" concept, I can assure you that about half the politicians will be in jail. No Spain has no political prisoners, what we have are politicians who have broken the law (using their political power or otherwise), and these are the people in jail.

Can we please stop publishing news manipulation please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiksag (talk • contribs) 09:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Nice verbatim quote from the coservative party. Wikipedia is not the place for political propaganda. Kilgore T (talk) 15:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

I have removed all unsourced POV propaganda from this article

If a reliable source is provided here claiming there are or were political prisoners in Spain, it can be discussed here and considered to be added.Sonrisas1 (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

This page is a bloody unprofessional chaos

Anyone comes here, adds whatever they want, then the next person decides to remove absolutely everything except for what she believes should go there, then a next editor adds another chunk of text, repeat, etc. All of this without any previous discussion or without trying to IMPROVE on the last editor's efforts, and while everybody accusing everybody else of propaganda.

This is not by any means a serious editorial process. Kilgore T (talk) 18:45, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes it is. I in particular find the sneaky removals of information buried in larger edits and the removal of the POV and recentism tag without any serious attempt to alleviate the issues indicated by either to be simply unacceptable and dishonest.--Calthinus (talk) 16:35, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Apologies Calthinus but I was the one who removed the tags as part of my attempt to restore some order to the article by taking it back to a version from 26th October before a whole lot of controversial and disputed edits. Sadly there would appear to be editors trying to destroy this article for purely political reasons - I assume they object to the suggestion that Spain could have political prisoners - but there are clearly reliable sources showing that this is both a current issue as well as something that clearly existed as recently as four decades ago. Lin4671 (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

This article is clearly propaganda. No credible source mentions political prisoners in Spain. Prisoner Politicans is not the same as political prisoners. I am waiting for AfD... Sonrisas1 (talk) 09:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

No credible source? The BBC article directly describes politicians from Podemos holding up signs calling for the release of activists they described as "political prisoners". The Bloomberg article has a heading "Political Prisoner or Jailed Politician?" Do you not regard the BBC and Bloomberg as reliable sources? Lin4671 (talk) 12:18, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Lin4671 I don't think you understand how Wikipedia works. A political party is not a reliable source. Sonrisas1 (talk) 13:14, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

There is no internationally agreed upon definition of what a 'political prisoner' is. How should we then go about this? Should we remove all references to 'political prisoners' everywhere or...? Kilgore T (talk) 23:41, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE POV-FORK from Human Rights in Spain

When is this page going to be deleted? Every day that passes it tarnishes Wikipedia's image as a credible source. Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:09, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry but your opinion is just one opinion. Others, including myself, disagree with you. Please do not try to impose your will by deleting 80% of the article. If you believe a source is unreliable, please raise the issue on this talk page. Thank you Lin4671 (talk) 12:12, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Not one source on this article claims there are Political prisoners in Spain. There is no consensus to build in this case. Its just BS article created by a POV editor. As it stands now, talking of the Francoist dictatorship its fine (although it is still a fork from Human rights in Spain). With your jumbled garbage it will be a POV fork from Human rights in Spain but also non-compliant with WP:FRINGE, WP:POV, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH etc.

I'm sorry. Provide one reliable source which claims there are political prisoners in Spain and I will stop. I will flag this page for deletion. Sonrisas1 (talk) 05:25, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

User Sonrisas1 clearly has a political agenda, despite accusing everybody else of the same. There WERE thousands of political prisoners during Francoist Spain and there have been a significant number of voices being raised over the imprisonment of some politicians and citizens since the transition to democracy. I am not sure how erasing this information would improve on wikipedia's quality. Kilgore T (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me Kilgore T? Among the victims of political repression in Francoist Spain were members of my own family. And they weren't imprisoned, they were shot in the head and left in a ditch. Don't talk to me of political agendas. This article is simply propaganda focusing on the beyond-dubious allegations of "political prisoners" during the democratic period, for which their simply is no credible source backing their existence. It runs against basic Wikipedia policy. The consensus being built is to change the name of the article. Who has an agenda here? Sonrisas1 (talk) 07:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

It wasn't my intention to imply that you were Francoist or anything of the sort, but rather that you seem to have an opinion on this particular issue, and a strong one for that matter. Since all the source of conflict seems to be about the current situation in Catalonia, let me share my two cents on that; In this time of fake news and information blackouts, it's hard to sort out fact from fiction or propaganda. All the Spanish center and right-wing press and media are copying headlines verbatim from one another saying that there are no political prisoners in Spain, while the left-wing and the Catalan press say the opposite. The international community has remained largely silent while waiting for events to unfold, and according to Amnesty International they never position themselves on the matter of whether someone is or isn't a 'political prisoner' because there is no international justice definition for what a political prisoner is, but they have strongly condemned the Spanish government's actions and urged to release the prisoners immediately. I have no strong opinion on whether this information should go here or elsewhere, but I just don't think it's good policy to erase it or to let history and reality be written by whoever has the largest megaphone. Kilgore T (talk) 03:14, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you should go fix Catalan wikipedia which currently states Catalonia is an independent country bordering Spain and that Societat Civil Catalana is a "far right movement". Here we use reliable sources and stick to NPOV. Talking of political prisoners (when, as you rightly, state there is no standardard definition) in one of the EU's most advanced democracies in terms of civil liberties is quite simply propaganda. No credible source asserts that fact and Amnesty has been clear that there are no prisoners of conscience in Spain. Sonrisas1 (talk) 06:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

First of all, the Catalan wikipedia doesn't say Catalonia is an independent state, but that its juridical condition is subject to a current political dispute between the Spanish government and the Catalan Generalitat, which is obviously the case. Second, Societat Civil Catalana IS a far right movement with ties to Falange, Vox, Plataforma x Catalunya and Generacion Identitaria. Third, the "there are no political prisoners in Spain" is a claim that the Spanish right is making, but it's at the very least an object of dispute. Fourth, it's a shame not everybody has the same amount of time as you do to waste on this issue to delete information and revert edits you particularly don't like. Kilgore T (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:24, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

References

AfD

I have nominated this article for deletion. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Political prisoners in Spain. --Scolaire (talk) 09:22, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

For those who haven't seen the discussion, there is a consensus building towards keeping the article but moving it to Political prisoners in Francoist Spain. There is still time to contribute towards the discussion. Scolaire (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

• Now it is Political prisoners in Francoist Spain, we can commit to keeping this relevant and free from recent controversy. Dysklyver 09:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)