Talk:Qaraimits

New article for expansion

I have starting the article based mainly upon information from the books by Bulgakov and Т.И. Буткевич. However, the topic looks quite vast and I have found the following searches which might provide suitable places to mine some data [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. YuHuw (talk) 07:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I want to thank User:Неполканов for producing most of the sources for this article. Despite your belligerent accusative style the discussions on the many pages of Wikipedia were very useful. I hope you will accept this Olive branch in the spirit it is intended and finally bury the hatchet. I am clearly not who you thought I was. I have always paid attention to your comments to work towards consensus and tried my best to absorb all the new information you presented to me while filtering out the insults and contradictions perhaps due to English not being your first language and I have changed my position again and again to try and understand your points. I also want to thank User:Dbachmann for teaching me the value of Google translate. User:R'n'B and User:Midas02 for teaching me about DAB pages without which I would never have realized this article was necessary. Also all the friendly supporters at the Teahouse who have been so nice to me. This article would not have been possible without all of your input. :) YuHuw (talk) 17:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

As you wrote you took these sources from me. I am really familiar with this sources. You faked them Firkovich and Grigorjev did not intend Subbotniks but from Crimean Karaites. Kushul intend Crimean Karaites claiming their Turkic but not Slavic origin, If these edits are not disruptive edits what are disruptive edits? Неполканов (talk) 21:40, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry, your recent WP:BOLD edits were rejected. Now according to the guidelines you must discuss your objections here below. YuHuw (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Lets discuss.Please give me exact cite approving removed by me noncences (e.g that Subbotniks came from Lithuania). Nobody claimed this except User:Kaz Неполканов (talk) 22:29, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Please clarify exactly what User:Kaz claimed and please demonstrate exactly where with some diffs. YuHuw (talk) 22:32, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Meanwhile have a look at this [8]YuHuw (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

You as usual messed everything ,I learned the issue without Google Translate bugs -please look at this comprehensive RS . There 3 different kinds of Жидовствующие

а) Молокане-субботники(Molokans). Они, признавая Евангелие, считают, однако, необходимым исполнять в точности все правила и заповеди Ветхого Завета. Позднейшей традиции (святоотеческая литература и соборные постановления) они не признают. —

б) Геры (см.). Они также называются талмудистами или шапочниками, так как не сидят дома без шапок. —

в) Субботники (в миссионерской литературе — субботники-караимиты(Qaraimits is Missioner name for Subbotniks); в Тамбовской губ. их называют староиудеями или бесшапочными. Бесшапочные не признают Талмуда, а считают единственным источником веры Ветхий Завет.

So Qaraimits are not Molokans ,they are identical to Subbotniks,and they did not came from Lithuania but were affected by Kiev Karaite Jew Zaharia(Actually there indeed Karaite Jews in Lithuana (Crimean Karaites)Неполканов (talk) 15:17, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear User:Неполканов, I am glad to see that you are finally starting to learn a little about the subject. Honestly I am surprised that you still understand so little about it though considering you were the one who despite going back and fourth on the issue introduced me to the fact that Russian Karaite Subbotniks might have been distinct from Crimean Karaites. So now anyway you realize that there are three kinds of "субботники" not one as you first thought. Good! And you have correctly pointed out that one type (Молокане-субботники) are simply what we call Sabbatarian Christians in English. If you read the sources I pointed you too and in the article you will start to learn something about the history of the Russian Sabbatarian Christians how they began as Judaizers (according to the Bulgakov source above the Judaizers entered Russia from Lithuania in the XV century but if you have a reference about Zaharia please bring it to the article) and in the 1800s the Ger sabbatarians and the Karaite sabbatarians split from them so they became three Sabbatarian sects. There is currently discussion on several websites read through some of these areticles, it does not take long about whether the Ger Sabbatarians should be considered full Jews or not. Meanwhile the Karaite Sabbatarians and other Sabbatarians are sometimes lumped together to be counted as non-Jews -this might be the origin of your confusion that Karaite Subbotniki and other Subbotniki are one and the same. It did not take me many weeks to read up on these people and get my head around the ideas. So my advice to you is keep reading and soon things will become to make more sense to you. All the very best. YuHuw (talk) 05:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

I am glad to learn the issue but I see how you again and again you distort every source you read: according these sources Zaharia was not Жидовствующий but еврей (a jew not Subbotnik). In your other sources really written that Subbotniks were afffected by Crimean Karaites adherents of pure Karaite Judaism.

But you conclusion that Crimean Karaites were Subbotniks has nothing with reality.More reliable source like Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary does not intend Zaharia but suggested other versions like about first Жидовствующий Kozak covnverted to Judaism or they tauk it from Luteran European Sabbatarians. While have you some problems with logic conclusions and RS language understanding I suggest you to put you exact sites here to discuss them with me. I cannot accept the claims like Molokans are Qaraimits because or Crimean Karaites in Lithuania are Sabbatarian Christians. I am ready for discussion but I am not accept the misleading article. So I am leaving meanwhile on Qaraimit article only information supported by RS. You also need understand that Qaraimits defined themselves as Karaite Judaism adherents exactly like some Reformists/Modernists Jews that also not always practisize Brit Mila 08:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Неполканов (talk • contribs)

I have learned from you here [9] a method of reply which might best deal with the spin you have put in your reply above. I won't re-arrange your original message though as it seems a bit rude to do so. So I have copied your reply below and will answer in line where appropriate.

You wrote:

"I am glad to learn the issue"

Good! You need to because you have a lot to learn.

"but I see how you again and again you distort every source you read: "

That is a baseless ad-hominem attack. Please avoid such attacks in future comments.

"according these sources Zaharia was not Жидовствующий but еврей (a jew not Subbotnik). "

No one has said otherwise. You seem to be frequently imagining things which haven't happened and you are then responding to such fantasies as if they are real. If you are accustomed to using alcohol or other substances while editing wikipedia it might help if you try to cut it out before editing next time so that your answers can be more lucid and based in reality rather than fantasy. If it is not your habit to do so I am sorry to say I have no suggestions which might help you deal with this imagination issue :( sorry about that.

"In your other sources really written that Subbotniks were afffected by Crimean Karaites adherents of pure Karaite Judaism."

Correct, I am glad you finally noticed that. :)

"But you conclusion that Crimean Karaites were Subbotniks has nothing with reality."

Sad to see that again your sober thoughts are being interrupted by imagination issues again. I have never made any suggestion of the sort. Perhaps it is your poor English skills which leads to such fantasy ideas? If so your English skills must be much much worse than I thought. May I ask, can you only read English using google translate?

"More reliable source like Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary does not intend Zaharia but suggested other versions like about first Жидовствующий Kozak covnverted to Judaism or they tauk it from Luteran European Sabbatarians. "

Again I don't know what you are responding to but sure, why not. If you have a source to back up your theory please insert it into the article. I had no idea there was such a thing as a Lutheran Sabbatarian.

"While have you some problems with logic conclusions and RS language understanding "

Those comments are ad-hominem attacks again. Please refrain from such in future.

"I suggest you to put you exact sites here to discuss them with me. "

All the exact sites are published on this page and the Qaraimits article as well as the Subbotniks article. You might have forgotten that you removed all the references.

"I cannot accept the claims like Molokans are Qaraimits because "

You did not finish your sentence. Is it because you can not read Russian?[10]

"or Crimean Karaites in Lithuania are Sabbatarian Christians. "

Again you seem to be imagining things. Who said that? Is it because the Qaraimits used the Lithuanian books you think that means they are the same people? I really recommend you try reading Lvov's works. Firkovich's prayerbook was published in 1870 and they translated it and used it from that time. In 1882 they published their translation. From 1892 they used another Lithuanian prayer book. Surely the only reason the Lord's Prayer was inserted into the Lithuanian Liturgy is because there was a bigger sales market among Qaraimits than there ever was among Lithuanian Karaites. If not because of Christian influence then why insert the prayer into the liturgy? Certainly Sabbatarian Christians and Lithuanian Karaites are not the same people. If you want to say that they are then you must produce your sources.

"I am ready for discussion "

Good! It is about time! :) Better late than never.

"but I am not accept the misleading article. "

Judging from your message here it seems because you do not understand it.

"So I am leaving meanwhile on Qaraimit article only information supported by RS. "

Actually what you have left constitutes vandalism. The first time it could have been considered in good faith. But after the 4th revert your actions have gone beyond even edit warring.

"You also need understand that Qaraimits defined themselves as Karaite Judaism adherents exactly like some Reformists/Modernists Jews that also not always practisize Brit Mila"

This is a very interesting theory, but you need sources to back it up. I will leave you some time to think about producing the sources to back up your claims then the article will have to be reverted if you can not.

All the best

YuHuw (talk) 16:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

I have no any intention to hide information supported by RS cites.Wikipedia should not include self interpretation of this cites.Please add facts only.Your interpretation of Subbotniks faith looks me strongly subjective derived from missunderstanding of the sources languages(like Kraimstvo word).I agree to include every staff suported by RS if they not outdated like Grigorjev theories. Also please explain why you do not intend to include this article as subarticle of Subbotniks. Неполканов (talk) 14:50, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your recent edits, I will include some of your suggestions into the re-write. I am glad you finally accepted the fact that common Qaraimits are not circumcised. Clearly Subbotniks are Christians who observe many Jewish mitzvot as you mentioned, but the Ger-Subbotniks and Qaraite-Subbotniks clearly have enough information readily about them to warrant separate articles. You can focus on the Ger-Subbotnik article if you like, I will focus on this one. Grigorjev will stay because you yourself inserted his reference into wikipedia several times having removed my use of his reference from the Karaim language as not about Crimean Karaites. Clearly it is more than obvious that he is talking about some other group of Subbotniks. You can not have it both ways just to fit your own agenda, you have to surrender to the facts you yourself have tied yourself up in knots over this issue. and you have to admit have been rather underhand in your attempts to get me blocked rather than discuss the issues like a gentleman. I hope you will be more professional from now on and look forward to your removal of all instances of name calling on wikipedia as a symbolic gesture of apology. YuHuw (talk) 21:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Please consider the sources again:Only Molokans Subbotniks Christians but not Karaimits

а) Молокане-субботники(Molokans). 'Они, признавая Евангелие,' считают, однако, необходимым исполнять в точности все правила и заповеди Ветхого Завета. Позднейшей традиции (святоотеческая литература и соборные постановления) они не признают. —

б) Геры (см.). Они также называются талмудистами или шапочниками, так как не сидят дома без шапок. —

в) Субботники (в миссионерской литературе — субботники-караимиты(Qaraimits is Missioner name for Subbotniks); в Тамбовской губ. их называют староиудеями или бесшапочными. Бесшапочные не признают Талмуда, а считают единственным источником веры Ветхий Завет.

Please also pay your attention that Subbotniks do not speak Tatar Language,'So Grigorjev do not intend Subbotniks but Crimean Karaites.There is no place for Grigorev at this page 22:09, 26 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Неполканов (talk • contribs)

The statements from all sources will be accurately reported in the article with equal weight. Un-sourced statements of opinion from editors who have insulted rather than engage in discussion until it is too late will be ignored. I will accept any quote you bring from a source but I will not accept an idea you present (e.g. that people living along the Volga have never used any Tatar language) as anything but pure speculation from someone who was until recently clearly uninformed of the subject and who has a very clear agenda. Our packed and busy 3 months of acquaintance here has taught me not to trust at face value anything you say which is not a sourced quote. To be honest though, things would be no different even if you had been cordial and responded to my polite requests instead of being highly insulting and under-hand towards me from day 1. Nevertheless, despite your clear lack of knowledge on the subject it is clear that you do have an interest in it and I expect since you are (I assume) a native Russian speaker you will be able to find some good quotes from reliable sources if given time. Hence I welcome your participation here.

The fact that common Qaraimits are not circumcised and the fact that this is completely contrary to common Karaite Jews (not to mention the Molokan origins of the Qaraimits) is proof enough that the religion of the "Karaite" Subbotniks and they themselves can not be considered one and the same with Karaite Judaism and Karaite Jews respectively. YuHuw (talk) 05:51, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Livejournal as a source

I am sorry but I have deleted this from the citations: www.livejournal.com К ИСТОРИИ ДВИЖЕНИЯ КАРАИМСТВУЮЩИХ НА РУСИ I - russian_qaraim THE HISTORY OF MOVEMENT IN RUSSIA KARAIMSTVUYUSCHIH I - russian_qaraim 23 March 2008 @ 05:10 pm. Under Wikipedia rules something published on www.livejournal.com is not considered a reliable source. It "is a community publishing platform, willfully blurring the lines between blogging and social networking."[11] If you found the original source, it would be considered a good source.-- Toddy1 (talk) 17:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. YuHuw (talk) 05:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The editor not accept an idea that Russians speak Russian (e.g. that people living along the Volga have never used any Tatar language)

Please read the Grigorjev article again : The article is speaking about the Crimean Karaites leaving for years in the area of former Khazarian Kingdom and not Subbotniks that accepted Karaism 400 years after Khazars dissapearence. Неполканов (talk) 19:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You are the one who needs to read again sir.YuHuw (talk) 05:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The article should be renamed or moved.

This discussion have been moved to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qaraimits-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent changes rejected

As per WP:BRD it is time to discuss the recent changes which have been rejected. YuHuw (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)