Talk:Qarmatians/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

I don't have time to fix this right now, but much of this article is completely wrong and, in my opinion, spreads misinformation about the Isma'ilis.

I will try to come back and clean it up but I'm surprised that it's not been flagged for bias. -- 71.145.187.160 11 December 2005

Has major problems, yes. AnonMoos 20:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Bias

Don't know much about the topic, so I just looked at general readability and put up the NPOV notice. The article currently focuses mostly on doctrine without anything about the actions of this group. Kerowyn 09:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The article contains a big undigested lump from the 1911 Britannica which contains some rather dubious information, and completely ignores many important aspects. If somebody was really willing to do a thorough job with the article, the best course would probably be to just delete the whole "History" section, and replace it with more reliable and better-focused material. AnonMoos 02:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work

Latest version of page is much improved with respect to allowing further improvements. AnonMoos 02:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Conjunctions

The information on Jupiter - Saturn conjunctions is total nonsens. They happen every 19.65 years, not every 960 years. And the conjunction in the year 928 CE was on October 18 (gregorian calender) corresponding to October 13 (Julian clendar). Siffler (talk) 20:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe there's confusion between conjunctions and triple conjunctions (though from Googling, the triple conunction may have occurred in 967 A.D.). AnonMoos (talk) 02:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The triple conjunctions happen more often than every 960 years. And it seems to me that there is no obvious pattern. A few examples from REDSHIFT: 7 B.C. (May 27, Sept. 28, Dec. 8; Star of Bethlehem?); 571 C.E. (Feb. 3, March 6, Sept. 1; "Conjunction of the People", according to Abu Ma'shar announcing the birth of Mohammed), 967 C.E. (June 15, Oct. 12, Jan. 7), 1544 C.E. (Feb. 23, March 27, Sep. 19). Siffler (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Removal of NPOV tag

I've tried to address the issue of bias by including information from other sources. I'm going to delete the term 'extremist' to describe the Qarmatians as this seems to be POV. I hope this is enough to take the NPOV tag off for now, which I'm going to do. If there are any objections I'd be happy to discuss them and put the NPOV tag back on if necessary.

Dilmun (talk) 01:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Editing April 2008

This paragraph was removed according to User:07fan without 'a valid rational' (sic) and has now been restored:

"Pre-Islamic Persian religious influence on the Qarāmita was significant. The conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter, which happens every 960 years, produced millenarian excitement among Persians. The date of the conjunction, 27 October 928 CE, produced a messianic fervour that the Qarāmita interpreted in light of Islamic revelation. They interpreted this new period as a return of Persian dominance."

In fact this paragraph hasn't been deleted but moved down towards the end of the page and edited to removing the patronising phrase "millenarian excitement" and to make it read better. The only sentence in it that's been deleted reads:

Pre-Islamic Persian religious influence on the Qarāmita was significant.

This is an unsourced unsupported statement. In the text I've gone further and highlighted specific aspects of pre-Islamic Persian religious influence on the Qarmatians. If you want to restore this sentence it makes a lot more sense than restoring the entire paragraph - at the moment there's duplicated paragraphs saying the same thing on the page.

Dilmun (talk) 10:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Conjunction October 928

In the Journal of Islamic Studies 17 (2006) 200 one can find a review of Theology, Ethics and Metaphysics • Edited by HIROYUKI MASHITA (Royal Asiatic Society Classics of Islam). In Volume III, pp. 196/7 is discussed the millenarian excitement. In a book on conjunctions by Abu-Abdallah Al-adi can be found the prophecy that the rule of the magi would be restored in the 18th conjunction after the birth of Mohammed. Islamic astrologers let coincide the birth of Mohammed with the triple conjunction of the year 571 C.E. The Jupiter-Saturn conjunction of October 928 took place 18 conjunctions aftetr 571. It occurred in the constellation Saggitarius, also mentioned in the book of Al-adi in connection with a 10th millenium (?). Siffler (talk) 15:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)