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Talk:Relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard/GA1

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Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 21:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Reading now, comments follow soon! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • per WP:Lead, we don't have inline citations in the lead because all information + references should appear in the main text anyways (but exceptions may apply).
Comment: Per WP:Lead [c]omplex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations. The topic isn't controversial to me, the numerous academic sources cited in the article are in agreement. However, the Romanian Orthodox Church itself has, for decades, carried out an organized effort to hide its interwar links with the fascists and its role in the Holocaust (Ion Popa wrote two book chapters on this). The article, particularly the last section (which is current) is potentially inflammatory for Romanians and has deep political implications. I would keep the citations in the lead. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • link National Legionary State in both lead and body?
Done.Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You capitalise various nouns that should not be capitalised, e.g. communism (not Communism), orthodoxy (not Orthodoxy).
Partial disagreement. I changed "Communism" to "communism" and "Communist" to "communist" throughout the article. I suppose in some cases "Communist" might be justified if one interprets it in relation to the Romanian Communist Party, but this is borderline IMHO. However "orthodoxy" is the opposite of "heresy" whereas "Orthodoxy" is the denomination (i.e. Easter Orthodoxy). My understanding is that it is capitalized just like Catholicism. Correct me if I'm wrong. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Changed "underdeveloped" to "in its infancy". Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legionary death-squads – what does this mean, can you add an explanation?
Linked to Iron Guard death squads. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Throughout the article, there is a problem with comma usage, and this makes the prose hard to follow at times. Examples:
    • praised the legionnaires for their work camps, however – there should be a ; instead of , I think
    • Nicolae Bălan, the highly influential Metropolitan of Transylvania and Archbishop of Sibiu was – comma missing after "Sibiu"
    • Metropolitan Bălan, publicly intervened on behalf of the legionnaires arrested in Sibiu. – does this need a "who" and comma behind "legionnaires"?
    • The priest of Stroești, Gheorghe Doară remained in detention. – comma after "Doară" missing.
Improved. Fixed all the above and two or three other instances. I believe it's better if not perfect. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 21:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bălan grew increasingly displeased with an organization – "the" organization because it is the one already mentioned (if I understand correctly)?
Reworded. It's more concise as well, I hope this is better. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 17:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ion. G. Duca – dot too much?
Dot removed.Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:27, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The deaths of prominent legionnaires Ion Moța and Vasile Marin on the same day, January 13, 1937, at Majadahonda during the Spanish Civil War, killed by the same grenade, while fighting for the Nationalist faction led to the organization of massive processions in Romania, particularly in Bucharest where they were interred. – extremely long and complicated sentence, too hard to understand, and I think there are comma problems as well.
Reworded. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 09:20, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack: I will gladly perform the revision once you complete the review process. Thank you for taking the time to carry-out this work. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 13:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thank you. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • from Spain, via France and then Belgium, – Excessive detail, in my opinion. In many places, the article could be more concise.
Details removed. Indeed, there is a specific article dedicated to this single event. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • SS and SA squads – link?
No longer an issue. Text was removed to make the article more compact. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • German Nazi Party, of the Spanish Falange and of Fascist Italy – links here, as well?
No longer an issue. Text was removed to make the article more compact. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 15,000 - 20,000 – en-dashes are used without space: 15,000–20,000
Done.Plinul cel tanar (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Removed "grandiose".Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:35, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "[he] followed the funeral car like a sovereign, with everyone falling to their knees and bowing before him" – we need the source directly with the quotation, with page number, per WP:Quotation
Done. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 15:59, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done.Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Codreanu was killed in a staged escape attempt in November 1938 along with other legionnaires.[49] Călinescu was assassinated by a legionary commando on September 21, 1939 – Why is the November event before the September event? I think it should be in chronological order.
Fixed. Section is more concise now. Still, the order was chronological (note the years). Plinul cel tanar (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • noteworthy – this word is not suitable for an encyclopedia; if the information isn't noteworthy, it shouldn't be included in the article in the first place.
Fixed. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In May 1940 it was Visarion Puiu's turn to be deposed as Metropolitan of Bukovina and replaced with Tit Simedrea. – "and replaced with Tit Simedrea", grammar off here, needs comma and reformulation
Fixed. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The conflict between the Government and the Legion became bloody. – Why and how? This does not become clear.
Improved. I added a referenced description of Călinescu as a committed anti-legionary. I also replaced "became bloody" with "escalated". Plinul cel tanar (talk) 12:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • was at time head – "the time"?
No longer an issue. Wording was changed; paragraph is now more concise. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 14:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done.Plinul cel tanar (talk) 18:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many priests who had been active in Transnistria faced prosecution. – Why / what is Transnistria? Link or explain? Is it the former part of the Soviet Union occupied by Romania?
Fixed. Changed wording; included link to Transnistria Governorate. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • After the fall of Communism in 1989. The "prison saints". – No points in headings, maybe use – instead: After the fall of Communism in 1989 – the "prison saints"
Changed to "After the fall of communism in 1989". No point in using "prison saints" in the title. If I find the time to bring the article to FA level I will split this section in two or three subsections with one dedicated to the "prison saints" movement.Plinul cel tanar (talk) 18:51, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bishop Antim Nica became involved in whitewashing the Orthodox Church's role in the Holocaust. – This needs a bit more context/information I think.
No longer an issue. Text was removed to make the article more compact. This belongs in an article on Nica or in an article on the Church's role in the Holocaust. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 10:45, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard was one of ambivalence – after reading the article, I don't see any ambivalence; the orthodox church appears to have been strongly inclined towards the Iron Guard, almost always? What makes the relationship ambivalent?
  • On hold – Looking at the Wikipedia:Good article criteria, I am worried about 1.a) "conciseness" and 3.b) "it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see WP:summary style)." The article does not fulfill these two criteria yet: It uses a lot of words when the same can be said with fewer words, and the article is full with details that often do not seem pertinent to this article. I am not referring to general background information that helps the reader with understanding; this is important. But I wonder if we really need the full life history of all individual priests, for example. I will provide a few examples below illustrate my point:
    • After World War II, Romania came under Communist rule. The clergymen involved with the Legion had very different fates. Some were imprisoned for their collaboration with the fascists, while others became informers of the communist secret police, the Securitate. – This can be much more simply written as: Under Communist rule after World War II, some clergymen were imprisoned for their collaboration with the fascists, while others became informers of the communist secret police, the Securitate. Much shorter, and we do not loose any information.
    • It is worth noting that communist prosecutors were specifically looking for connections to the Iron Guard, rather than investigating persecution of Jews. – "It is worth noting that" does not add anything in my opinion, I would just delete them here.
    • Viorel Trifa (the future bishop Valerian Trifa) was at time head of the Romanian Christian Students' Union. Trifa took part in the insurrection in Bucharest and was instrumental in preparing it, spreading propaganda. – Maybe just The future bishop Viorel Trifa took part in the insurrection in Bucharest and was instrumental in preparing it, spreading propaganda, reducing detail.
    • If you think that keeping detail is necessary, then Footnotes might be a way to do it, see Help:Footnotes.
Improved. I have removed several unnecessary details and the article is more compact now. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 21:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, in conclusion, I think that some significant work is needed to reach GA level, but at the same time I think it is completely doable. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:45, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Your comments are spot on. I will take the time to calmly address the issues one by one. I have some important deadlines to meet in "real life" but I am planning to submit a revised version of the article no later than January 24. Please let me know if that is acceptable. A quick comment on the issue of unnecessary details and the article not being concise. I was aware of the danger as I was writing the article. Unfortunately most of the related wikipedia biographies or articles on specific, related events are either in poor shape or simply do not exist; I guess I was instinctively trying to compensate. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 20:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, that is absolutely no problem. Regarding the details, I see where your coming from. As said, footnotes may be a way to accommodate some of this information, but try not to overuse them. See, for example, Lowry War as an example how this works (section "Notes"). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking much better now, thanks for all the work. A few additional points below, but after that we should be done here:
Thanks. I haven't yet had time to correct comma usage throughout the article. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 20:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "characterised by poor layout and rhetoric that is conspicuously hateful and racist even by (neo-)Legionary standards" – all quotes should have page numbers.
Throughout the article I included page numbers for books but not for short journal articles available online (it's pretty much standard practice in my field of research) however. If I include the page number here I should include page numbers for all articles throughout the article (doable - but huge amount of work). Plinul cel tanar (talk) 20:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I was not asking you to add page numbers throughout. I was only referring to the quotations, i.e. when you directly cite a particular person using quotation marks. These should come with page numbers for proper attribution. If the source where the quoted sentence occurs is only a few pages, however, I think that is ok. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The source is a journal article and it is available online; the quote can be easily verified. But you are the reviewer. If this is required, I'll do it and do it for all journal articles. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 20:41, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not strictly needed to reach GA, and other issues are more important. This suggestion is optional. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do...Plinul cel tanar (talk) 20:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Recent development

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@Jens Lallensack: Hi. Since you reviewed this article in the past I thought I'd ping you to ask for advice. There has been a recent development. The Romanian Orthodox Church decided to canonize 2 former Iron Guard members (+ Staniloae known for his proximity with the movement at some stage). There is an ongoing controversy that reached international traction with organizations of Holocaust survivors and various scholars protesting the decision. I don't know how to handle this, it's quite clear that the article is now dated in light of current events. I don't even know if the GA label should stay given the circumstances... Plinul cel tanar (talk) 11:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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