Talk:Sean Nós

Difference between Traditional Singing, Ballad singing and Sean-nós

Here's one perhaps for a music ethnologist. Aside from most sean-nós songs being in Irish, what is the difference between it and the other two types of song? Thanks a million. El Gringo 05:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Traditional singing, unlike jazz or pop, uses the voice to carry all the rhythmn of a song. As it is a community activity it has an easily remembered chorus, and a regular steady beat. The tune is almost always identical in each verse. It is hardly ever tragic. The vocabulary is simple, and there are only a few proper nouns.

Ballad singing sometimes has a chorus, but usually not. The chorus is sometimes no more than a few nonsense syllables, or a repetition of the last line. It is often tragic. The soloist will vary the tempo and the volume to correspond with the excitement or intensity of the story. As the story comes first, and the tune is less important, the tune can vary quite a lot from verse to verse. Ballads are usually longer and slower than ordinary traditional songs. Characters are given names and titles, and are often described. Place names, dates and the weather are often mentioned. Coincidence, ironic repetition, social defiance and the supernatural often occur. It is Shakespearean.

Sean-nos are more sophisticated versions of the ballad. The long vowels are often given decoration (passing grace notes). There can be so-called "internal rhymes". Sean-nos songs are quite often told in the first person, while ballads are less likely to be personal. It is never comic, and unlikely to be erotic. There is often an implied "National spirit" in the sadness of the events. Apart from the "national spirit" there is unlikely to be anything supernatural. In "pop" terns sean nos is like soul music, or gospel. 18:34, 21 April 2006 193.82.16.42 (Difference)

Thanks very, very much, 193.82.16.42. The part about the 'long vowels' I had never thought of. But listening to Jimmy Connolly from Carna, who has been living in Boston for the past 40 years, singing a bilingual song (Portumna) and it is so true. Every emphasis is on the vowel. Mairéad Ní Dhomhnaill, in contrast, singing Is Fada Liom Uaim places the emphasis on the consonants as well e.g. 'ar uaigggggneas...'. But now to trad singing; is trad singing by definition singing without instruments? ('uses the voice to carry all the rhythmn of a song') Up until this point I had placed Christy Moore's Boys of Barr na Sráide and Dunlavin Green under 'traditional songs'. Hearing the latter sung at An Góilín regularly on a Friday night would have confirmed this categorisation. Yet songs which I would have always thought (instinctively) to be ballads like The Auld Triangle, Green Fields of France, Seven Drunken Nights, Clare to Here, Follow me up to Carlow, Irish Ways and Irish Laws etc etc etc all contain a chorus (I cannot think of one well-known ballad which does not have a chorus). You say that traditional songs are 'hardly ever tragic'. By this definition I would place An Poc Ar Buile as a trad song, but what other songs would be traditional? I would have thought tragedy would be endemic to most traditional songs. Regarding Sean Nós being 'never comic, and unlikely to be erotic' would you not consider An Cruiscín Lán or Níl Sé 'na Lá to have both of these characteristics? Listening to Nioclás Tóibín and Brian Ó Domhnaill respectively singing them a few years ago I got that impression. Thanks again. El Gringo 21:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Is trad singing by definition singing without instruments" No. But it has to be able to survive without instruments. Christy Moore doesn't cease to be a singer of traditional songs, just because someone is playing along with him. The question is: would the song still make sense without the instrument? You consider "Seven Drunken nights" to be a ballad? Good grief! It's a popular comic song/ erotic song. and it is very far from being Shakepearean. I mean "like a Shakeapeare tragedy". You can't think of any well-known ballads that don't have a chorus? How about the Child Ballads? Admitedly some of them have nonsense phrases at the end (fal-de-liddly-i-a) and some have repeated final lines, but none are proper choruses. "Traditional songs" are the uber-category. Within that are these sub-categories

(1) popular, non-profound songs, usually with choruses (e.g. Seven Drunken Nights) (2) Ballads, always slow and serious, rarely with choruses (3) Sean Nos, more soul-searching than ballads, and probably with less narrative.

Examples?

Can anyone provide an example of Sean-nós singing that is accessible or might be familar to a wide audience?

Does the version of The Auld Triangle performed by The Dubliners qualify as Sean-nós?
In the film The Matchmaker, when Janeane Garofalo's character goes to the Aran Isles and the charcter played by Vincent Walsh courts her with an a cappella rendition of On Raglan Road does it qualify as Sean-nós?
Is Carrickfergus, as (for example) sung Liam Clancy, characteristic of Sean-nós?
Are the verses of An Poc Ar Buile characteristic of Sean-nós?

When answering, please indicadte candidly whether you are stating a guess, an educated guess or are speaking with absolute certaintly. Thanks! -- House of Scandal 23:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)House of Scandal 17:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only An Poc Ar Buile (The Mad Goat) falls within the tradition, though it is hardly "typical." The opening of each verse, in a declamatory style in a free rhythm, is perhaps more typical than the continuation, which speeds up and adopts a definite 2/4 rhythm. Sean nós songs can be lively (e.g., Cailleach an Airgid (The Rich Old Hag), An Spailpín Fánach (The Wandering Laborer)), but slow ballads like An Bonnán Buí (The Yellow Bittern), Bean an Fhir Rua (The Wife of the Red-haired Man), Tá na Páipéir á Saighneáil (The Papers are being Signed) or Sliabh na mBan (place name, literally “Mountain of the Women”), with greater opportunity for ornamentation, would generally be regarded as more representative.

I am speaking with absolute certainty. I have been learning Irish for many years and do some singing in sean nós (and a lot more listening to it).

Kostaki mou 04:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

sean-nos and ballads

After the reading of this article and the discussion about it, there is still something i can't understand: the difference between sean-nos and ballads through some sub-categories.In this article and in some others books about that subject, it is said that: "it is the method of singing which is distinctive and not the lyrics". So, i have thought that we can differentiate the songs by the way they are sung and not by some details about their contents. thanks for help me to understand that.

Sorting out this debate once and for all

There appears to be considerable confusion over the definition of sean nos, ballads, and other forms of traditional singing. I think this article should be a bit stricter with including only referenced content from reliable authorities. I'm going to have a go at getting as much quoted material in as I can from the net and a couple of books I have. Any help and corrections would be greatly appreciated. --Seamasmac (talk) 21:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is an awful mess at present. I'll try to do some clean-up. I appreciate your efforts sincerely and hope that if I change your work you'll regard that in the spirit of collaboration that is Wikipedia. - Boston (talk) 21:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can I suggest that this page be redirected to 'Sean-nos singing' and a disambiguation notice be put up for sean-nos dancing to the 'Irish dance' page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seamasmac (talk • contribs) 16:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]