Talk:Serbia Expedition (1477)

Matthias Corvinus

OrionNimrod Let's clarify the issue here. This is not a single war but a general campaign. And before the expedition, Matthias built castles in this region. Matthias was not there when Mehmed arrived, but he had activities there before Mehmed arrived.So Matthias should be added to the "leaders-commanders" section because this is a general campaign and a strategic defeat for Matthias. Just like in the siege of Jajce, the Ottoman army was defeated after Mehmed left, but it was a strategic defeat because Mehmed did not fortify the army well. Keremmaarda (talk) 16:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I can say the same, Matthias was not there, so how can be he a commander there??? He was in Austria/Bohemia in campaigns in that time, possible he did not know nothing about this siege (just later). Morover those cities were in Serbia not in Hungary.

"Matthias was not there when Mehmed arrived, but he had activities there before Mehmed arrived"

So Matthias cannot be commander of Smederevo the Serbian city

Matthias was also not here during the siege, but we know who was the captain: Siege of Jajce (1464) OrionNimrod (talk) 16:35, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay, but this does not describe a single war, but a general campaign or expedition. What you said would be true if it told about a single war. But the person who built and fortified those castles was Matthias Corvinus. Then Mehmed came there and destroyed the castles he had built. Matthias should be mentioned in the leaders section since he describes a general campaign. Keremmaarda (talk) 16:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

There were many Ottoman-Hungarian peace treaties in medieval times, but border conflicts were every day situations by both sides even in the peace time.

If you say it was a general campaign, still Matthias was not present so he cannot be the commander or leader of that. Even your title is Serbian campaign, I do not know what is this exactly as I do not find anything in Hungarian sources yet, but small attacks from a fortress just an everyday situation, the Hungarian king was not the commander, probably he was informed weeks later after the events.

If you see other military articles only the commanders of the battle or campaign mentioned not the kings of the countries who were not there. OrionNimrod (talk) 16:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The Serbian Despotate was in ruins at that time. Since it took place in the Serbian region, it was added as the Serbian expedition. Turkish historians often call this the "Winter campaign". And read the body of the article about castles Hungarians. This is not a war, but a campaign. The castles built by Matthias were destroyed, so Matthias should be added to the leaders section. Keremmaarda (talk) 17:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I bet the Hungarian king and Turkish sultan ordered to build many houses, but if those houses destroyed it does not mean that they were the leaders in those houses in that event :) OrionNimrod (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Events follow each other sequentially. Matthias's aim is to stop the Ottoman advance thanks to these castles. But the raiders entered Hungary again under the command of Mihaloğlu Ali Bey. I still advocate for Matthias to be written in the leaders section, as events follow one another. Because this page also talks about the activities of Matthias and explains that Mehmed prevented these activities. Keremmaarda (talk) 20:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

This is not a single war, it describes what kind of activities the 2 leaders did in that region. So Matthias is also a part of this event. Keremmaarda (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I recommend to study other battle articles.

I do not see Hitler as leader or commander on WW2 German battles: List of World War II battles OrionNimrod (talk) 20:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

What kind of activities did Hitler do in those wars? Or what did he do during the expeditions? Keremmaarda (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

And although Hitler and Stalin were not commanders in the Battle of Stalingrad, their names are also included in the information box Keremmaarda (talk) 20:40, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Finally you found one? :D Both Hitler and Stalin personally managed the Battle of Stalingrad.

What about the medieval battle articles? I am thinking about the good articles.

You can start rewrite many thousand battle articles by your own standards to put everywhere even every small border conflict the rulers of the countries, I will be curious how long can you do this. OrionNimrod (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Or you're trying to protect Matthias Corvinus. Then remove Mehmed from the siege of Jajce in 1464. After all, Mehmed was not there when the Ottoman army was defeated. :D Keremmaarda (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Protect? Why? You are claiming many nonsenses in many battle articles. Even you add as a “Venetian battle topic” a battle where was almost in today Iraq… Doubtless Ottoman history had many great victories, but your goal to rewrite all defeats as victories or just twist them to pretend those defeats were just because “butbutbut” bad weather and they moved home after a picnic. In Jajce the sultan was there he started personally that campaign, while in this Serbian topic Matthias was not there at all. The sultan was not here also: Battle of Breadfield OrionNimrod (talk) 07:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Which war in Iraq did I call "the subject of the Battle of Venice"? And if the edits I make bother you, that's not my problem, I'm providing the necessary resources. As you said, we should take historians as a reference. I am trying to reflect the most accurate information about Mehmed on Wikipedia. And the Hungarian King Matthias was in that region before Mehmed came, and he kind of started this operation. By destroying the castles built Mehmed II, he defeated Matthias' aim and prevented his activities. If Matthias will not be written in the leaders section, please remove Mehmed from the siege of Jajce because the Ottoman army is defeated after Mehmed withdraws. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@Keremmaarda

Finally I found the story in the Hungarian history book, since the moldavian campaign: (fast google translate, so not perfect) After the Ottomans destroyed the small forticications, I see this was a raiding campaign to everywhere, to Transylvania, Austria, Croatia:

First of all, voivode Stephen threw himself at the Tatar group, and after decisively beating it, pursued it all the way to the Dnieper. Then he turned back to the sultan's main army, against which he followed the same proven tactics as he had used against Suleiman Chadim the previous year: destroying the entire region through which the enemy had to advance, driving the population back to the higher forested regions, avoiding large-scale clashes and the continuous pinching of the enemy, by frequent small raid-like attacks.

Nevertheless, on July 26, 1476, the Sultan forced Stephen voivode to accept a decisive battle in the so-called Fehér völgy[3] near Roman, almost at the same place where the big battle of the previous year took place, which, after a valiant resistance, ended in the complete defeat of the voivode. István himself, emerging with his horse, was only able to escape with great difficulty and marched further into the desolate wilderness with the remnants of his army.

After that, the sultan ransacked and plundered the entire province as he pleased, but he besieged Sucsava and Chocym castles in vain, but was unable to take them.

In the meantime, it happened that the Sultan's naval fleet, which was supposed to feed the Turkish army in the devastated and exhausted province, was completely destroyed by a terrible Black Sea windstorm, on which occasion the Ottoman naval fleet on the Danube was also almost completely destroyed, and after news came that Mátyás was approaching at the head of a large army With the help of Voivode Stephen, and as finally the plague in the Turkish army began to take on greater proportions, Mohamed decided to retreat quickly.

While this was being carried out, the country judge István Báthori, who had been entrusted by the king with gathering and organizing the Hungarian army in Transylvania to support the Voivode of Moldavia, broke in. At the beginning of October, he headed towards the region of the confluence of the Szeret and Prut rivers in order to cut off the sultan's retreat to Oláhszária, where only the he came across the successor of the Turkish army, which he immediately attacked and destroyed most of it.[4]

After that, in May of the next year, Báthori led his army against the Dutch voivode in the company of Voivode Stephen, in order to punish him for siding with the Turks with all his might. After driving out Radul, Báthori who had been held prisoner in Nándorfehérvár (Belgrade) for ten years and accepted improvement and loyalty, he installed Vlad Drakul, nicknamed Stake Voivode or Cepelus, in the Vojvodina chair, but one of his servants killed him in the same year. A similar fate befell Radul, who, fleeing to Brasó, was captured there, then handed over to Stephen, voivode of Moldavia, and killed by him.[5]

The Pope and most of the Italian princes were so pleased with the new failure of the sultan that they sent 200,000 gold to Matthias and a larger sum to the Voivode of Moldavia in order to effectively promote further struggles.[6]

At the same time as the Sultan's campaign in Moldavia in 1476, the Michalogli brothers, Ali and Iskander begs, crossed the Danube at Szendrő (Smederevo) with 4,000-5,000 men in the summer of the same year, destroying, robbing, and inciting the entire Temes region. Matthias' Hungarian army was not fully prepared at that time and after it soon became clear that the invading Turkish force was not too strong and that its main goal was only looting, the king, in addition to keeping his main force together, for the time being only ordered his southern lieutenants, primarily the commanders of Nándorfehérvár, to repulse the invading enemy . In comparison, at the request of the castle commanders of Nándorfehérvár (Belgrade), Imre Onoffri and János Csepelyi, the Serbian despot Vuk, the lords of Temesvár, Albert Nagy and Ambrus, as well as the southern cavalry captains Demeter Jaksics, Ferenc Jób, Péter Dóczi, Imre and László, as well as Mihály Pécsi, Sebestyén Ábrafi, János Ádámfi and Henyei Márk and László, heavy cavalry captains from Tiszántúl, gathering with their troops at Nándorfehérvár (Belgrade), rush after the already retreating Turkish army and on the third day at Pozazin, not far from Palánka, about halfway between Kevevára and Fehértemplom, [7] the same place where 16 years ago the Michalogli brothers Szilágyi Mihály was taken prisoner, [8] when they reached it, they decided to attack it the next day, which is why they set up camp late at night at the foot of the mountain opposite the enemy's camp and, staying on their feet all night, prepare with the utmost caution for the battle planned for the next day.

The Michalogli brothers, learning that they were facing a not too strong enemy, decided to accept the battle, for which they marched to the top of a nearby mountain, entrenched themselves there, and directed their pack full of large booty into the valley on the far side of the mountain. At dawn, 50 Hungarian horsemen sent forward open the battle, but the Ottomans push them back with ease and then throw themselves with full force at the Hungarian main force that has advanced for battle. Péter Dóczi on the right wing, and Ferenc Dóczi on the left, valiantly intercept the first attack of the Ottomans, after which a bloody, stubborn fight develops on both sides. In the course of this, a part of the Hungarian troops suddenly and skilfully turns to the side and then to the back of the pagans, disrupting their order, confusing them, and then bringing them into disorder, which quickly turned into running. Many were beheaded on the spot, and many were forced into the Danube. Ali Bey saved his life on a small boat, while Skander Bey was taken prisoner.

Now it was the turn to free the prisoners and seize the Turkish booty and booty, from which the Christian prisoners also took a good share. It is said that there was not a woman or a child among them who, traveling home on horseback, would not have driven at least one well-laden beast of burden to their home. The victorious leaders of the Hungarian army sent 250 prisoners and 5 flags to their king in Buda as a sign of their victory.[9] Standing in front of his wedding, which took place on December 22, 1476 with great light and splendor,[10] he was very happy at the beautiful gift of victory. The Turks tried all the more to spoil the wedding joy of the royal couple. A group of 40,000 of them at Szendrő (Smederevo) at the end of December, after tearing apart the palanquins and other fortifications built there by Matthias, crossing the frozen Danube, the bulk of it, 30,000 armed men, invaded Transylvania, ravaging it through and through, returning with a large booty and 40,000 prisoners. .[11] The other, weaker group reached Klagenfurt along the Danube-Dráva, and a sub-group of it reached the Görz area, amid great destruction.[12] Finally, a Turkish force broke through from Bosnia through Dalmatia and Croatia into Krajna, where they did their devilish work as usual. That's why the princess, who aspired to Buda, had to pass through scorched places and fields covered with dead bodies until she reached the Drava from the coast; moreover, the situation was made even less civilized by the fact that the business procession often had to stay in places where the pagans had only a short time ago had their bestial, wild orgies.[13]

It was no Hungarian response for that at that moment.

"It is an interesting phenomenon that while Báthori was operating in Wallachia with his army, the Turkish army group that had crossed at Szendrő (Smederevo) dared to break into Transylvania behind him and was able to ravage it so much in a short time, even without being harmed. Where were the lowland captains and the bulk of the famous black army and why did they delay? It may be that at this time he lusted with the king of the whole country in a wedding intoxication."

So Matthias was on his wedding at that time of the Ottoman campaign, so he cannot be commander of this, moreover it was no Hungarian military response, just the local places defended themselves more or less.

OrionNimrod (talk) 08:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is the war in question, but Mehmed does not enter Transylvania in this campaign. Maybe it's an army he sent. I never saw the invasion of Transylvania, there is some really interesting information in the Hungarian documents. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

And when Mehmed fought there, Matthias was not there anyway. What I mean is that Matthias was active there before Mehmed. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

That is why I say we need to show the historical sources to understand the situation, there are many debated historical things where reliable historian A claims different than reliable historian B (usually from different countries), so we can present both opinions in this case. Remember Wiki is not our personal blog, not our personal research, we need just present what the reliable academic sources say.

As my understanding from the Hungarian source it was a general raiding campaign of the sultan on the time of Matthias wedding and not only in Serbia. And you can see it was an another battle with the raiding units of Ali and Iskander beys before the winter story where not the sultan (the sultan was in Moldavia at that time) and not Matthias was present. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Title

I also do not understand the title.

“Serbia expedition was is the expedition of Sultan Mehmed II to Hungary in 1477”

This is very bad grammar, also I do not know it was a Serbian or Hungarian expedition? Serbian expedition to Hungary? Did the sultan broke into Hungary? Do you mean small fortresses which built in Serbia or in Hungary? What is the name of those fortresses? Do we know those fortresses belonged to which country in that time? OrionNimrod (talk) 07:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The name of the region is Serbia. The Serbian despotism was de facto overthrown in 1459. At that time, these lands belonged to the Hungarians. Matthias builds castles on the Ottoman-Hungarian border and Mehmed goes to destroy these castles. The castles belong to the Hungarians. Keremmaarda (talk) 07:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

And I'm taking this page from Turkish. They added the name Serbia, and Ottoman sources call this expedition the "winter expedition". I don't know why they wrote Serbia, maybe because the name of the region is Serbia. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:36, 15 September 2023 (UTC)