Talk:Shaban Suli/GA1

GA Review

Passed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Aintabli (talk · contribs) 03:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 20:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I'll review this within the next few days. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aintabli, I've looked the article over, and it's pretty good overall. I've left a lot of notes, but they're mostly minor nitpicky comments about wording and clarity. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 08:30, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aintabli, just checking in since it's been a week. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There were several older reviews, which I was looking into. I was a bit busy after that, but I will shortly continue with this review. Aintabli (talk) 22:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written

General:

"However" can almost always be removed without changing the meaning.
Removed.
Is there a reason why the article refers to Kadi Burhan al-Din specifically instead of just saying "the Eretnids"? I'm not objecting to it, but I'm curious why when the Mamluks are just "the Mamluks".
Kadi Burhan al-Din was a former vizier to the Eretnids but had become a sovereign ruler on his own when Shaban Suli was the leader of the Dulkadirids. So, he is not a part of the Eretnid dynasty and was not serving them from 1381 until his death in 1398. Aintabli (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

who founded a client state – This makes it sound like his father founded a different client state instead of Dulkadir.
Reworded.
perpetrating the invasion of Syria – Should this be "an" invasion of Syria, or was this the only time Syria was invaded?
Correct. I also don't think it happened, which "the" may imply.
was assassinated in May 1398 as commissioned by Barquq – "as commissioned by" reads awkwardly
Changed to on the order of.
The throne was inherited by his son, Sadaqa. – This isn't found anywhere in the body
Solved. Aintabli (talk) 21:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early life and background:

Does it need to mention the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia? Unless it directly affected Suli's rule, that part can probably be cut.
Cut.
It should specify that Qaraja was administering Dulkadir specifically, not just "part of the region".
Dulkadir was not a region. It was the name of the dynasty, likely the name of Suli's grandfather, and later the name of a tribe. I have linked another town to further clarify the region Qaraja ruled. Aintabli (talk) 21:19, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who is Khalil and when did he take the throne? The lead mentions it, but it should be introduced in the body before we start talking about him. From Alıç I understand there was a slight gap between Qaraja and Khalil. Is that relevant?
Specified that he is Suli's brother and mentioned when he ruled in parentheses. The gap is not so relevant in this case as it concerns Khalil more and did not change the outcome.
Suli took part in the defense against Mamluk forces near Marash in 1381. Suli had to relocate to Harpoot following a defeat – Is this a defeat at Marash, or an unrelated defeat?
It was in Marash, the same defense. Added "there" for clarification. Aintabli (talk) 22:59, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reign

This whole paragraph is very long and should probably be split in two.
Done
Shortly after Suli rose to the throne – We skipped him actually rising to the throne. It's a minor thing, but something like "Suli rose the the throne after Khalil's death" can do a lot for readability.
Done Aintabli (talk) 23:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the Mamluk Sultan Barquq – This should be reworded or the linking should be adjusted so there aren't two blue links next to each other.
Chose the easy option. Removed link (sultan).
Elbistan is linked and referred to as the capital down here, but this should be done the first time it's mentioned. I didn't realize the significance of Elbistan when I saw it mentioned in the previous section.
Solved.
Translate or link amīr ʿashara
Done
Suli defeated Ibrahim bin Yaghmur, a local lord supported by the Mamluks – Defeated him how? In battle? Were they personally fighting or did they send armies?
On the battlefield.
Barquq then sponsored Suli's nephew Nasir al-Din Mehmed, who forced his uncle to flee – I realize that "his uncle" is clearly Suli, but since we've mentioned brothers of Suli, it would be preferable to name him explicitly.
Done
for an independent Syria, which would continue until 1393 – This could be read as Syria being independent until 1393
Clarified that the rebellion continued until then.
during which he and his brother hid in the citadel – Badr al-Din al-Ayni and his brother, or Suli and his brother?
Al-Ayni's brother. Clarified.
Suli sought a pardon for his actions – What actions?
I've changed it to disloyalty.
who crushed Suli – This seems informal/editorialized
Changed to overpowered.
Suli had barely avoided getting caught in this struggle – The previous sentence says he was "crushed", which suggests getting caught in the struggle.
I have adjusted the previous sentence. Aintabli (talk) 04:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Shaban Suli was known to be just to his subjects but cruel to his enemies. – Is there evidence that this was a widely held belief during his reign? Or is this the opinion of some modern day historian?
According to the book, this was the opinion of "Arab historians of that era" with no specification which ones regarded him as such.
Translate Haykal al-Turkman
Added literal translation. Aintabli (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assassination:

on the way to the yaylak near Marash – Do we know why he was going there?
There isn't a sepcific explanation in sources, but Turkmens were largely nomadic. Yaylaks were highland pastures where nomads would dwell during the summer.
When did he have a son? This is the first we're hearing of him.
It's unknown. Most if not all of the Dulkadirid rulers' birth years are unknown.
The last paragraph starts by saying it was narrated by Al-Maqrizi, but then it makes it sound like the rest is factual.
Noted that this is still according to al-Maqrizi. I hope it's more obvious now.

Verifiable with no original research

The infobox says his religion was Islam, but this isn't mentioned or sourced anywhere in the body.
This is actually a really interesting point. I have seen many reviews of such articles where this was not actually pointed out. In a way, I thought this was obvious, but no source explicitly mentions it for the same reason. I have now added a mention that these Turkomans were Muslims in the Background section. Does that suffice? Aintabli (talk) 23:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article is listed as having Harv and Sfn no-target errors. Is one of the shortened footnotes broken?
I think Andy02124 solved it, but I originally didn't notice any problems.

Spot checks:

Alıç 2020 pp. 85–86 (checked with machine translation) – Good
Alıç 2020 pp. 86–87 (checked with machine translation) – Good.
Peirce 2003 p. 23 – Good

Broad in its coverage

Though the article is short, it covers the subject's life as it is covered in the sources. I was unable to find any English language sources that are not already in the article.
Was there nothing useful in the section about Shaban Suli in Alıç 2020?
That source largely cites Yinanç. Most original information about the Dulkadirid rulers are found in Yinanç (1989).
The "early life and background" section goes into detail about Ghars al-Din Khalil, which would be better suited for his own article. We only need enough context to know what Suli was doing and how it affected him.
I've now removed much of the details regarding his rule. Aintabli (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

The article uses neutral tone and does not give disproportionate weight to any ideas.

Stable

No recent disputes.

Illustrated

The image is appropriately licensed and captioned. Maybe some day one of editors skilled in map-making can create cleaner SVG maps for this region's history.

@Thebiguglyalien: thank you for the work and apologies for taking so long to focus on the review. Let me know if there are further issues you want me to take a look at. Aintabli (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.