Talk:Shitennou (Sailor Moon)

About the images

I hate to ask this, but is it really justifiable to use two pictures of each character here? Since they basically look exactly the same in the anime as they do in the manga, and since none of these are free-use images, shouldn't we try to use as few as possible?

The other thing is that these screenshots are marked as having been posted by their "creator". I really don't think taking a screenshot counts as creating something. --Masamage 22:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I took care of the second point, but the first point awaits comment. --Masamage 00:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of images we need PGSM ones. They had gone through some drastic apperance changes for that versionLego3400: The Sage of Time 14:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

If we were to banish one set of images, I say keep the manga ones. If we could replace the anime versions with PGSM versions that would be cool. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 15:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree. Actually, if we could find a manga or an anime picture of all four generals, we could put that at the top, and then the individual shots from whichever one isn't represented up there, along with PGSM shots. --Masamage 17:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

There's the one with them Hugging the inner senshi up at the top... But Ill look around... Lego3400: The Sage of Time 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC) http://mangastyle.net/book1/1-30.jpg TADA! The mangna images in their original context! Lego3400: The Sage of Time 20:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks kinda funny shrunk down... --Masamage 08:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

We can trim off all that extra space at the top and bottom...Lego3400: The Sage of Time 03:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I cropped it and uploaded it: Image:ShitennouGroup.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

Hmm. Maybe if they were moved up and down so as to be in a line? Could work... I don't know if that's an unacceptable amount of editing or what, though. --Masamage 01:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That might be a little hard. Nephrite's image is kind over lapped by Jedite's. The way Kunzite's is can be acceptable but Nephrite is a big problem. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 01:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

From the manga side, I think this and this are really good. Don't like this so much. Would love to see an anime shot, but that seems unlikely. --Masamage 07:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The only time you really see any of them together in the anime is when Zoisite and Kunzite are together or Nephrite being mocked by Zoisite. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 01:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Top image. Perhaps we should hack off the parts of sailor moon and tuxedo mask? Tux isn't a shitennou and Moon isn't an inner senshi. I feel a little ambivalent about having this pic as the main one at all, but it is probably the best pic of all four of them. But their respective loyalty don't need to be in the picture. This article isn't about them.Jupiterzguy 04:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

@Lego3400 there is a shot of them standing together when the moon kingdom was attacked by the dark kingdom ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 14:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

This page has escaped cleanup too long. I'll try to hit it in the next week or so. Beware! :) --Masamage 07:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What was that about hitting it?Lego3400: The Sage of Time 17:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Totally forgot. Real life reared its head. Guess I'll get to it when I come back from wikibreak next Monday. --Masamage 18:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Misogyny

Jadeite misogynist in the manga? I've read both the English (Mixx/Tokyopop) version and Alex Grover's translation of and I did not see any evidence of this assertion at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.26.185.45 (talk • contribs)

I'm away from home for Thanksgiving still, but I can look into it when I get back. --Masamage 16:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Jadeite barely says anything at all, much less his personal opinion of gender relations. Good catch. --Masamage 06:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Kunzite/Zoisite

This article has switched the names of Ziosite and Kunzite. Kunzite is the thrid and Zoisite is the fourth (the white haired one). Kunzite was called Zoisite in the American dub probably because they thought it sounded more girly. But all the information on these two need to be switched. It's clearly "documented" that in everything but the American dub Kunzite is the blond one (acutally he's brunette much more of a badass in PGSM, but then all of the four kings colors were switched a little in the live action) and Zoisite is the platinum one. I'd switch it all myself but I'm not sure if there's some sort of voting protocol or whatever we should follow.Jupiterzguy 04:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

You could have swapped them all yourself, but you would have been quickly reverted by a hoard of rabid fans. They are not switched. Japanese book by Naoko Takeuchi. Pic 1. White Haired Guy Kunzite is written at the top in clear Japanese. Pic 2. Pony-tail guy It clearly says Zoisite at the top. No switch. Kunzite was actually called "Malachite" in the US dub. The reason commonly given, though no source exists, is because of copyright or trademark issues with the name Kunzite. --Kunzite 04:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Whoa. Yeah, Kunzite was very definitely the white haired one. Danny Lilithborne 05:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, so PGSM had it wrong then? Because the white haired one is clearly called Zoisite there. I've never watched the first season of the anime, only later seasons so I could be wrong. But I thought it was the other way around. 216.67.155.187 03:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Not "wrong". Different. PGSM totally changed a lot of the character designs. IIRC, it was mentioned in an interview that they were re-worked to fit the actors rather than the original characters. --Kunzite 04:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Image shuffle

Since the images in this article were last discussed, one of the manga set (Nephrite's) has actual been deleted. Everyone seemed okay with replacing the manga set with a group shot at the time, so I'm going to take this as an impetus to do so. If anyone wants to object, the manga solo shots that still exist are at Image:Jad-manga.png, Image:Zoi-manga.png, and Image:Kunz-manga.png. I'm also putting the Senshi-Shitennou image on queue per this policy; I don't know where to put it, so I'm storing it here on the talk page until we work that out. --Masamage 21:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I also pulled the shot of Zoisite's death, since it wasn't being used to illustrate anything in particular. If anyone wants it, it's still over in Sailor Moon episode 035. I also suggest that the current profile-shot of Kunzite, which is half of Zoisite, be replaced with this one. Look good? --Masamage 22:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

crystal

was the crystal Zoisite used called "black" or "dark" crystal because I thorght the black crystal was in Black Moon Clan but in this article it says Black Crystal ♥Eternal Pink-Ready to fight for love and grace♥ 19:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember either. I still haven't seen most of series one in Japanese yet. T_T --Masamage 21:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Zoisite's stone is called the "Black Crystal"... In the dub Zoycite would refer to it as "Dark Crystal", "Black Crystal" and "Homing Crystal", but in the Japanese version it is Black Crystal (黒水晶). The later Black Moon Clan has the Crystal with the name of "Evil Black Crystal" (邪黒水晶). ~ Fighter4luv 01:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

OMG I forgot about the evil part ♥Eternal Pink-Ready to fight for love and grace♥ 08:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

PGSM Images

We still need PGSM Images.... They are so diffrent in PGSM (apart from Jedite) that they need images...--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Not until this Fair Use thing is taken care of. See WT:SM. --Masamage ♫ 15:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Romantic Match Ups

Should that be put in? For example, Jadeite said he remembered Mars from a long time ago... when they'd just first met in her act in the manga from her POV. Then she again referred to their past relationship in Casablanca Memories. Then again in the Artbook Volume I that Takeuchi thought everyone would be surprised at the match ups. Then again in Volume 3 there is a reference to Venus and Kunsite being matched up. Many argue it didn't make it to the manga, therefore it's invalid, however how Takeuchi talks about it, it did make it in, and there is evidence of it.

"This is the title page for the conclusion of the first series of Sailor Moon. It had a great deal of impact on the first series. Probably because the four couplings on the right side were very unexpected. I was thinking of love stories of the previous lives of these couples. I'd like to be able to draw that someday..."

i.e. She drew hints of it in the present, thus it was unexpected, but she never drew them in the past like she did for Endymion and Serenity in detail.

Kunsite and Venus is supported by Volume 3, Act 12, Page 165, Frame 2-4

Volume 1 Act 3 Page 108: (Jadeite strokes Rei's hair) Jadeite: -So beautiful. -I've been attracted to her since I first saw her. -This girl.

Casablanca Memories, "She sees the face of Kaidou. It blurs with the face of Jadeite.

"Rei!" he says as he grins evilly. "Even I will really do it!"

It blurs into a large apparition approaching her.

"Stop confusing me!" Rei says. "It's my principle not to look back on the past! Phobos! Deimos!" The two crows fly down in the moonlight. "Many treasures unite! Purify the six roots of perception! Flame, come to me! Evil spirit, begone!!"

Flames surround the woman. Rei drops to her knees.

"Hmph," the woman says. "I thought I would take revenge for Jadeite, but... You're strong."

My principle not to look at the past... why see Jadeite and say that? Thus it did make it in, just not as strongly as Takeuchi-sensei wanted, but she still got her "unexpected" match-ups. --Hitsuji Kinno 16:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that should go in, especially since it's already present in each of the Guardian Senshi's pages. At the very least they had definite relationships in the musicals. (I'm always blase about adding stuff to this article since the whole thing needs a rewrite anyway...) --Masamage ♫ 00:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Correct spelling of Jadeite's japanese name

While ジェイダイト is a valid japanese spelling of "Jadeite" and maybe more accurate in terms of english pronunciation, the alternate spelling ジェダイト is whats actually used in the series. So i changed it. Dead Screem 23:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I double-checked in the Materials Collection, and it looks like you're right. Thanks for catching that! --Masamage ♫ 23:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Zoisite gender swich

Shoulden't it be mentioned that Zoicite was portrayed as a girl in the english dub? If it's alredy there i didn't see it but i don't think it is. 69.123.126.4 05:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Kimitala

It's in the very last sentence under 'Anime' under Zoisite's section. Probably could use more of a mention, but then, this whole article is on the waitlist for being rewritten. --Masamage ♫ 05:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is Zoisite refered as a male?

I am from Germany and in the German Version Zoisite is female. So Why does this text always says "he"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.205.88 (talk) 16:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In the original Japanese, Zoisite was an effeminate gay male. Various countries changed him into a heterosexual woman to avoid any controversy over having a gay character in a children's TV show. --Masamage ♫ 19:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Blam!

Finally got around to what I've been meaning to do for at least a year, which was to pare this article down rather a lot by getting rid of all the plot info except that which was absolutely necessary to explain what makes them tick. It needs a lot more work, of course, but this has always been one of the most embarrasing articles in the project (in my opinion), and now we'll have a much better starting-ground. --Masamage ♫ 22:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You mean one of the most *detailed* articles in the project, don't you?  ;) Actually, looking through the LIPOSUCTION (charming description, btw...) I'm not so sure that there's been stacks left out - just specific examples. -Malkinann (talk) 01:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

X) I tried to keep the important facts and just get rid of the blow-by-blow episode summary stuff. We can probably trim it down even more, but the best thing would be to get more secondary analysis of the characters or group. (Nice find with the Nephrite stuff, by the way~) --Masamage ♫ 16:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The credit there must go to Collectonian - she let me know that there was Sailor Moon stuff in that book which she was buying, then she provided me with the relevant information from the book when I asked her. :) It also says that SM has two classes of villains - the MOTD and the more detailed and sympathetic villains (which doesn't happen in US animation). Is there somewhere to fit that in, in the general scheme of things? -Malkinann (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like it would fit pretty well in the discussion of the anime, since it doesn't apply so much in the manga (where everyone is a MotD!). I guess it's true for PGSM as well, but tokusatsu is its whole own thing. X) --Masamage ♫ 22:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

There are recurring names used in the musical for the generals civilian identity,. I have to watch Ryuusei Densetsu again, but I'm quite sure in Gaiden Kunzite uses the alter ego Saito kun, and when reversed it becomes "Kunzite"(even stated by him -.-). Not sure how that works, but this is also used as an ad lib in Ryuusei when the generals are introducing themselves as a jewel group or something like that....I'll dig up more info later.--Hanaichi 00:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

ShiteNNou

Why Shitennou? 四 - shi, 天 - ten, 王 - ō. Where is the second N here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.151.243.31 (talk • contribs)

• That's a good question, actually. The phrase has been romanized as "Shiten'nou" or "Shiten'nō" as long as I've seen it, but that actually doesn't make sense. It should be "Shiten'ou" shouldn't it? JuJube (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Perhaps because other sources cite that it is Shitennou? Or maybe it sounds weird with shiteno as opposed to shitenno? No idea, maybe its a romanization rule used when translating Jap to Eng.--Hanaichi 12:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure either, but it's not limited to this page. As Hanaichi linked, the two ns are pretty common wherever the Four Heavenly Kings are discussed. They're also common in the glossing of the planet Uranus, Tennousei. I guess it's just an acceptable variation. --Masamage ♫ 15:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's mistake anyway. Maybe this is wrong pronunciation of hieroglyph 王. For example http://shitennou.path-of-thorns.net/mythology.html 91.151.243.31 (talk) 06:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It is a proper romanization. Although the kanji translate separately as such, the collective reading in furigana is actually してっのう　or in romaji, shi te n no u (a small "tsu" hiragana representing emphasis on the consonant hence a second n, and the "u" extends the vowel sound making it a long o.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.82.60 (talk) 02:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The correct furigana is してんのう. Evidently, it's irregular because it is so old. (It's a concept from Buddhism I think.) The small 'tsu' is never used to double an 'n' because there is a consonantal 'n' kana. 'Shitennou' is the perfectly correct and only correct romanisation.70.197.167.221 (talk) 03:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Group image

Since this has been tagged with an overuse-of-images template, I propose that we replace all five pictures with a cropped version of this. I've already created one, and it's ready to go just as soon as I'm sure nobody objects. --Masamage ♫ 04:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I will be fine with that — and I would not mind the one in the infobox staying as well. The individual ones are a bit overdone though. G.A.S^talk 05:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. The original intent was to show them all in both their anime and manga forms, and they're never shown together in the anime. Really, though, they look identical in each, so there's little point. This one is much higher quality than the current ghostly black-and-white image, and it has color like the anime images, so I think it'd be a good single representation. --Masamage ♫ 05:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, it's been several days with no objection, so I am moving forward with this. Nothing will be deleted for a few days, so speak up if you've been keeping quiet. --Masamage ♫ 16:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I come with this proposal to merge the Shitennou into the Dark Kingdom article for several reasons: a claim for not proposing them to merging was that they vary a lot from media to media, but the same happens with the Amazoness Quartet, that are also Senshi in manga and the Samael Quartet in musicals, all being different versions from media to media, and they have been already merged. A little mention in an essay does not establish clear notability of the characters, and they have not proven real popular culture impact as do some really notable characters like Mickey Mouse or Jabba the Hutt. My merge proposal is pretty much as other proposals I've made regarding Sailor Moon, in which no content at all is lost, the whole information within this article can be placed under a "Shitennou" section in Dark Kingdom and it won't even violate WP:SIZE. Thoughts? --LoЯd ۞pεth 18:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the merge, but it's good practice to involve editors of the merge target also. I see a discussion from several months ago at Talk:Dark Kingdom#Merge proposal. Flatscan (talk) 04:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, support. There's really no reason not to do this, since nothing would be lost. And if they are in fact as notable as I thought, then it would only help the Dark Kingdom article. --Masamage ♫ 21:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It has been more than a week and no opposition has come. If it continues like this for another week, the merger will be performed. --LoЯd ۞pεth 19:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

As no opposition arose, the merger is being performed. --LoЯd ۞pεth 22:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)